Hi Guys,

I shoot weddings and am in my 2nd Year of doing so. To date I've done about 45 Weddings. One thing I notice regardless of who I'm working with is that Photographers rarely consider there is someone else tryinig to get shots as well.

This is usually during the photoshoot, obviously for me anyway, its their domain being a photoshoot. When is asking the bride and groom to hold a shot being too much of a hinderance. How about the moving shots where you walk through the shot? Or when you are trying to get a shot to continuously find the phtotographer walking into yours to show the bride & groom how wonderful each photo looks, hmmm.

My approach has been to politely introduce myself and advise them that I will work with them and occasionally ask to grab a shot, but otherwise the photoshoot is theirs.

Are you guys passive in your approach to the whole day acting as an observer or are you asking the b/g to perform for you.

I'd like to know how others approach this?

BTW this is my first post.

Cheers, David Edwards Drumroll Productions - Sydney Wedding Video Sydney - Drumroll Productions Corporate and Wedding Video Sutherland Shire Sydney (http://www.drumroll.com.au)

Or when you are trying to get a shot to continuously find the phtotographer walking into yours to show the bride & groom how wonderful each photo looks, hmmm.

haha, that made me laugh. that was so true of my last wedding. i'd be filming the B+G and the Tog would keep running up to them and say 'Look how amazing this photo is that i just took of you!'. The funny thing is, they honestly didn't even look that impressed each time :)

there are a couple of tried and tested solutions:
- really try and get on with the tog from the word go, and try to explain your way of shooting in the hope that they have a bit more consideration
- work/partner up with togs that you know

Age old problem, buddy up with the photographer, some of your best work will come from working with photographers. Last wedding I did the photographer was great, he's done video work himself and was very considerate, occasionally he would come over to me glance at my LCD to see how wide my zoom was and work within those limits. I try to be as interactive during a wedding as possible, most people feel uncomfortable in front of a video camera, I try to take the focus away from the camera and help them relax by stirring up small talk or giving guidance.

We always write to the photographer as soon as we know who he/she is and tell them how we like to work, and ask them to call us and discuss any areas in which they think we might be in each other's way. That rarely goes wrong but it's always fair to bear in mind that they are working in the smal artistic area as you and you're competing for the best shot.

Recently we've started including a CD with 100+ stills (with full copyright release) from the HDV master - for free. That way the client understand that we're really giving value. A few clients are even realising that we do "reportage" better than any still photog and are booking a portrait photog to just to the portrait. At the end of the day photography is 19th century art, video is 21st. (That should provoke a bit of discussion!)

It does make me laugh to see the photogs running to show the couple their shot. When I started in still photog biz in the 70s you either knew you got the shot or you knew you didn't and the B&G trusted you enough not to worry. Of course we were shooting film so it wasn't like we could go to the couple and show them what we shot at that moment.

Anyway, I work a lot with the same people but when I do work with some I haven't worked with before I introduce myself, make small talk and tell them politely what I plan to do and how I plan to do it. If they have a problem with it we either talk it out or as happened 2X in the last 5 or so years we have a "discussion" and in 1 of those case there was a threat of physical harm but it was truely an extreme situation.

I have found that most of them are pretty decent to work with but if not, I go to the B&G and tell them I need 10 or 15 minutes with them without the photog to get what I need or them. That'll generally work. If the photog doesn't like it, too bad.
But thats just me.

If you think it is a nightmare, 2 years ago we did an 18th Birthday shoot (Photography/Video), parents hired us to do the shoot. Godparents decided to hire a 2nd set as a gift. The venue has also included a 3rd set since they booked the entire Ballroom they have throw it in for free. So basically there were 3 Studios doing the shoot. The celebrant was stressed from the tug of war, 3 Photogs and videographers having different visions.

Noel, I can just imagine what that must have been like. It sounds like a a press gaggle at a press conference ;-)

There are some photographers that will insist that the photo shoot is totally their time. The solution? Make your own time with the couple, without the photographer being around. Work out the schedule far in advance. Believe it or not, we've had lots of brides get ready twice...once for video, and once for photography. They didn't seem to mind, knowing that their final product would be much better than having 2 sets of cameras trying to fight for the same shots in a crowded space. Find out what the photographer's schedule is, then book something an hour or two before him. Also have the bride schedule her hair and makeup accordingly.

Many photographers today don't work alone. They have assistants shooting 2nd camera or even 3rd camera which can make matters worse, especially when working in tight places. The inexperienced assistants are usually high on adrenaline to do a good job and will constantly get in your shot whether they know it or not.

On the flipside, there are photographers that are constantly aware of where you are and may even ask you if you're wide or zoomed in before he makes a move. Working with such professionals is such a blessing....

Get to know how each photographer works and adjust your plans accordingly!

There are some photographers that will insist that the photo shoot is totally their time.

There is some validity to that. When something else is going on, the distraction makes it more difficult for the photographer to work. I also find a video of people posing for photographs to be not very interesting. If you set up a separate shooting session, you can do more things to make it look more like a video production instead of "video photographs".

I have to side with Jim on this one. Leave the stills to the photographer, and concentrate on something 'more interesting' than the b/g posing for their stills. In 21 years, I have had exactly 0 complaints on not covering the photo session. The key here is to manage expectations. If your clients want the photo session covered, then read the above postings and take your chances. I tell my clients up-front that I am the 'eyes in the back of their head', which means I can show them things they can't see during their posing session. If there is absolutely nothing else to cover, then I try to spend time with those family members waiting for their turn in front of the lens. I'll try to get some good stories from them...depending on their comfort level with the camera.

As for ceremony coverage and blocking, I'll do my best to coordinate in advance and warn the photog about any unmanned cameras I have. Then I crack a joke about the darts I keep in my pocket for when they stand in front of my camera. If you really want to make an impression, whip out a case with darts from your pocket. I promise they will remember that.

If you really want to make an impression, whip out a case with darts from your pocket. I promise they will remember that.

Haha - love it.

P.S. Congrats on your 1st post David and welcome to dvinfo - it's a great place to be.

There is some validity to that. When something else is going on, the distraction makes it more difficult for the photographer to work. I also find a video of people posing for photographs to be not very interesting. If you set up a separate shooting session, you can do more things to make it look more like a video production instead of "video photographs".


I understand that they have a job to do, and I do my best to stay out of their way. But they also have to understand that you are both there for the couple, that they are paying good money for both the photos and the video. In the end, they want good products from both of you. I'm still new to the field, but I've been blessed with very helpful photog's so far. Most photo sessions that I've seen shot with video are more of a keepsake of the photo session itself, not necessarily for "photos put to video". It occupies maybe 1 1/2-2 minutes of each the videos I've done so far. I stay out of his/her way and video the session as it unfolds. I occasionally ask for the bridesmaids to raise the bouquets again, etc, and it hasn't caused a problem. The last photographer I worked with even had the subjects hold their pose long enough to ask me if I got what I needed. I wish they were all like that.

If you really want to make an impression, whip out a case with darts from your pocket. I promise they will remember that.

hahahaha!!! I can imagine the guy is sweating and everything turns black and white and slow motion with scrary score when you say that with an echoey voice

Ok that was too much.. sorry...

For the formal photo session, instead of shooting what the photographer is shooting, this is what I would suggest: aim the camera the other way! Yes, shoot candids of the people waiting around, holding the flowers, or doing something other than posing for the camera. You can get some very interesting and real-life shots. Also, if the bride and groom is being photographed, be ready to roll as soon as the photographer says "ok, I'm done for now." As soon as he says that, you'll see the couple break out of their fake smiles and do real ones once they can relax. A closeup of that precise moment makes great video, especially if they joke and laugh with each other.

Good idea Warren, what I do I tell the B&G that I want 15 minutes with them alone after the photog does their thing about a month before the wedding, I also remind them about it every time I talk to them after that. This way there is no surprise on the day of.

Also I think there is no point in shooting the formals, filming them posed all weird and fake like that is kinda creepy... during the formals or whatever I always film the crowd or I film the photog shooting them. I also tell them I don't really shoot the formals ahead of time, this way there can be no surprises afterwords.

There is some validity to that. When something else is going on, the distraction makes it more difficult for the photographer to work. I also find a video of people posing for photographs to be not very interesting.

Since my style is artistic documentary, I get a few shots of the photos session as part of the day. The photgrapher is part of the story. I usually grab an over the shoulder of the photog, laughter as B&G get into a few poses pose, a pan from the photog to the photo subject ... then I use that time to get other shots I need.

I do always introduce myself the the photog and explain what I'm doing. I watch them for non verbal cues and try to grab shots in moments when they are occupied.

It's fun for the couple to remember that as part of their experience, and creates good PR shots for the photog.

Working with photographers is a hazard of the job. I hear one guy lost an arm to a particularly vicious one.

If you note that the photographer is foaming at the mouth, notify the authorities and have it put down immediately, it's really for the betterment of all involved. If no help can be reached it's advised that you lay down bear traps near the front of the center aisle AFTER the processional has passed. In such case that bear traps are not available, a large caliber rifle is permitted, but only at extreme close range.

Good luck out there.

Few years back (before HD) I did a wedding and the photographer was so bad he kept blocking me all night long, but I had two cameras with a second operator so he could not keep up with us. But It was very hard to edit him out in all the shots.

So I put together a deleted scenes on the B&G DVD of some of the photographer in my way.
When you watch this just keep an eye on the photographer where he kept looking right at my camera.
Untitled Document (http://www.dragonflyproduction.net/photographer/)

Few years back (before HD) I did a wedding and the photographer was so bad he kept blocking me all night long, but I had two cameras with a second operator so he could not keep up with us. But It was very hard to edit him out in all the shots.

So I put together a deleted scenes on the B&G DVD of some of the photographer in my way.
When you watch this just keep an eye on the photographer where he kept looking right at my camera.
Untitled Document (http://www.dragonflyproduction.net/photographer/)


That is so rude, did you guys started out on the wrong foot? What is his problem, thank God I never had to work with an a*hole like that.

That is so rude, did you guys started out on the wrong foot? What is his problem, thank God I never had to work with an a*hole like that.

Noel, we introduced ourself to them and tried to be nice, but right away they looked at us like we are from another planet.

the photographer looks like a giant that says "what're you looking at??"

he's scary.. I don't know how the B&G could book him....

Santo

Few years back (before HD) I did a wedding and the photographer was so bad he kept blocking me all night long,


I need to count to 10, breathe deeply and have a cup of tea. That would have been soooo frustrating. Can I hit him? just once, please?

I really hope I NEVER come up against something like that - I don't know what I'd do.

Hi David,

Welcome to the forum :)

It's funny that you've brought this topic up as it's something that we've been thinking about recently. I guess there are so many factors in play - the purpose of what & why you shoot for us is something that we've been giving more thought to as time goes by.

Who are you shooting for?
what do they want?
what do you want to achieve?
Then, how are you going to do it?

I agree that including what the bridal party is doing will add to your production. I do also feel that there is only so much of this you can film and that you will also need to shoot the formals/posed shots. We've decided to shoot less of the family photos and focus on the immediate family - in saying that, sometimes there is little of anything interesting that is created by the photog and the style of this segment therfore changes.

I've been trying to look at the different angles from what a photographer shoots - eg, generally they are front on, so I go to the side, try & use a building to do a reveal, shoot behind and over the shoulders of the bridal party or photog.

We work regularly with a photog but that also has the downside of their routine becoming predictable & familiar. We too try different things and then after awhile, our feeling is that we have our own routine of predictability. The challenge is to be comfortable with what you are doing and then move on - break the sterotype...it's far more difficult than saying it.

To answer your question, be confident and continue to ask for some time to do some things (5 mins of their time). But first, make sure you know what you are wanting to do. Even if what you are going to do might only take a minute, it will show the photog that you are different than everyone else and have initiative - this was a great piece of advice given to us & now I'm much more confident when speaking with photogs.

Cheers

here we are talking about the bad guys. Michael I think I saw that clip when you first posted it after it happened I seem to remember thinking "there will be blood" but yesterday I worked with a guy I had never worked with before and by the end of the night I shook his hand and told him I would work with him anytime, anyplace again. He's a big guy but not intimadating, funny, fast and very open to me doing what I had to even to the degree of says hey lets get this one for Don and stuff like that. He's one that has been doing still work about the sametime as I've been doing video so it was just 2 old timers doing their job.
Now while this guy was in my mind an exception I think the guy Michael had on that clip was also an exception most photogs fall somewhere in the middle.

Don, I don't have a problem with photographers they have a job to do just like us, and I worked with very nice and professional photographers, but sometimes you get someone like that guy in the clip that makes you wonder how can someone like him be in this business.

He completely ruin the wedding, blocking everyone during the ceremony, turning the B&G first dance into a photo shoot they just posed not danced, it is like everyone came to the wedding for a photo shoot not the photographer came to shoot the wedding.

I do have another clip just like that one but different photographer, it must be me, I think I look invisible to photographers they just can't see me.

I don't shoot a lot of wedding but I think next time I will put on a bright red/orange shirt so they can see me. NO more black shirt :):)

I am not a photographer but I understand a little about photography. I can't understand why the photographer would want to get as close as he did in Michael's clip in the first dance for example. When you get that close, you have to shoot at a somewhat wide angle setting. That is very unflattering to facial features. You start to get the "big nose" look and other distortions. That's why portrait photographers use 105mm lens or even a bit more (assuming a 35mm camera). It makes people look better and more natural.

The other problem when a photographer gets that close is that he gets inside their "space" and they become too "posey" and unnatural. So all the photographer gets for his little "performance" is distorted facial features and posed pictures.

There are a few photographers (very few fortunately) that have the mindset that they "own" all imagery when they shoot a wedding. If they think that strongly, perhaps they feel "duty bound" to deliberately block your shots to protect their turf.

Thanks for sharing this close-to -worst case scenario, Michael. Whatever I may experience, I will judge it less worse than that one. I have read a little about professional photography, there is a need to be selective in your shots to avoid wasting your time, and making yourself less intrusive. You have a repertoire of standard shots that people want to buy and that's enough! Then stand back! This person's technique seems more appropriate for a crime scene photographer.

This person's technique seems more appropriate for a crime scene photographer.

Galen, That was the perfect description, love that one :):):)

Although it's a favorite past-time to post our frustrations with photogs on this forum, I'd like to point out the guys that are considered the masters of their field in photography. If you haven't checked out the Masters of Wedding Photography video series, I suggest you take a look.

Masters of Wedding Photography 2 (http://www.mastersofweddingphotography.com/index.html)

The guys that are really good don't have to set things up during the event. Sure, they have their portrait session, but they don't have to be in everyone's face during the wedding. One guy talks about how he's like a sniper, hiding and waiting for the right shot.

Recently I worked with a photog who ruined all kinds of special moments by saying, "Stop! Hold it right there for a minute... let me get my exposure right..." and then the shot was ruined for both him and me. I think the best wedding photos during the event are candid shots. Don't stop the action, don't script it, don't set it up. Do that during portrait time. Don't ruin the moment for the B&G, don't ruin your photograph, and don't ruin my video.

Just my two cents.

We always write to the photographer as soon as we know who he/she is and tell them how we like to work, and ask them to call us and discuss any areas in which they think we might be in each other's way. That rarely goes wrong but it's always fair to bear in mind that they are working in the smal artistic area as you and you're competing for the best shot.

Recently we've started including a CD with 100+ stills (with full copyright release) from the HDV master - for free. That way the client understand that we're really giving value. A few clients are even realising that we do "reportage" better than any still photog and are booking a portrait photog to just to the portrait. At the end of the day photography is 19th century art, video is 21st. (That should provoke a bit of discussion!)

Philip - great idea to write to the photographer as soon as possible to establish a relationship. I would say however that you're not doing yourself any favours when it comes to working well with photographers by including a CD of stills ... for free! To me, that's close to stealing food from a photographers table. By giving a couple that CD of free images you will be decreasing the photographers album and print sales for sure. If you did that on any gig with us you can guarantee yourself no future referrals - and many photographers would feel the same way.

We should be adding value through the quality of our work, not by being wannabe photographers - IMHO.

Even though it's good for a laugh ... the photo vs video mindset that is rife in our industry does nothing to improve relationships with photographers, or the perception that brides and the general public have of us and our work. I've attended photography conferences in which speakers have actively railed against 'video tossers' - even to the extent that they recommend to their clients not to get a videographer at all.

It's important to remind ourselves that every single wedding vendor should be on the same team and should have a common goal in mind - i.e. to capture or make the couple's day as amazing as possible. Unfortunately not every vendor keeps that in mind, but as videographers we would be well served by taking the high road as often as possible. Our industry lacks credibility as it is, the photo vs video mindset only makes that worse.

David - welcome to dvinfo, great to have you here! If you ever need advice from a fellow Aussie don't hesitate to get in touch!

Cheers,

Matthew.

Photographers can be a brazen bunch.

check out this angle from my rear cam recently...I would never even imagine doing this as a videographer...Maybe with a steadicam but I'd never get that close!

http://davidschuurman.com/photog.mov

lol, was a really nice photographer to work with though otherwise.

This kind of lack of professional respect deserves a good stumble.

I see stuff like that quite a bit around here.
I only hope that when the customer sees the photographer all over the video, then they won't be as likely to recommend them.

When I first started doing wedding videos I would often get frustrated with photographers, but I've gradually learned the following:

(1) Don't let it get to you - nothing will be improved by getting upset when a photographer blocks your shot or gives you attitude. If something annoying happens, take a deep breathe and stay focused on doing your job.

(2) Do your best to be nice to photographers, and most of the time they'll be nice to you. The ones who aren't, that's their problem.

(3) Learn to anticipate the most common situations where a photographer may end up in your shot, and figure out ways to avoid them or work around it. Multiple cameras and an extra tall tripod can help a lot at wedding ceremonies, and being able to move around as needed at the reception is essential. When appropriate, be prepared to get in next to the photographer to get your shot.

(4) It's tough for photographers to stay out of view even when they're trying to be conscientious, so cut 'em some slack unless they're obviously being rude.

(5) If you do everything you can to shoot around photographers and they still end up getting in key shots to an extent you can't edit out, just leave that in the video and chances are the couple won't mind - or if the photographer is really out of line they'll notice and pass the word to their friends.

I do have another clip just like that one but different photographer, it must be me, I think I look invisible to photographers they just can't see me.

Well, I found this clip that was shot in Dec, 2005, and it was part of the B&G DVD deleted scenes.

Can you find the photographer? Part II (http://www.dragonflyproduction.net/photographer2/)

LOL, awesome clip.


*excuse me*

OMG that is hilarious! Wow.. I think if I was the videographer I would have told the couple that I can't get any footage to work with due to their much more expensive photographer constantly getting in my way. That is just beyond unprofessional.. that guy, and the other one too had no care of professionalism in them.

That is just beyond unprofessional.. that guy, and the other one too had no care of professionalism in them.

No, they just want to take their shots at any cost with no consideration to others.

I would love one day to jump in front of a photog just before he/she take the snap and start shooting my video just to make them see how it feels to be ignored and blocked deliberately, But I know that I can't do it beacuse the professionalism in me.

Again I worked with many great photographers before, but sometimes you get the bad, the good, and the ugly.

check out this angle from my rear cam recently...I would never even imagine doing this as a videographer...Maybe with a steadicam but I'd never get that close!


This has to be one of the best hilarious video clip I have seen, awesome.

According to some photographers I've talked to, they work very hard to set up a shot, get the lighting and poses just perfect, run back and forth to fix the bride's dress, and make sure everyone looks perfect from head to toe. While all this is going on, the videographer patiently waits on the side, not doing anything. Then, suddenly he turns on his camera and "steals" the shot, then waits again for the next freebie.

A lot can be said about this, but a few comments: 1) The photographer's work needs to be respected and not infringed upon. 2) The videographer can always ask the photographer if it is okay to film these set up shots 3) The photographer can request the videographer not to film the set up shots at all, or just indirectly, to just film the overall scene of the shots being taken, as part of the general show 4) In any case, it would be poor form for the videographer to release the video of the set up shots before the photographer does his presentation and selling of his shots, and 5) Since the wedding party is paying the photographer and the videographer, they deserve as much as possible of what they are paying for, and that needs to be remembered by everyone, and they could be included on the decision of what happens at their wedding.

Galen, I have to disagree with you on a few things.

I don't see any need for a videographer to ask a photographer if he can film any set-up shots. I also don't agree that the photographer has the right to disallow the videographer from filming the set-up shots. My wife is a photographer so I'm not speaking from a completely biased position. The notion that the photographer has a higher priority or authority is ludicrous in my opinion, as is any notion that his 'posing' is somehow copyrighted.

I also completely disagree that it's poor form for the videographer to release footage of any set-up shots before the photographer releases the shots. We're talking about two completely different mediums here, and again, the photographer's poses aren't copyrighted or anything.

Something to keep in mind here is that photographers already have the upper hand because they are generally in control of how the photoshoot goes. So while they do have to come up with poses and get everything just right, they also have the advantage of being in control of setting up those poses. Most videographers don't get any input on poses that would work better for video, and that's our disadvantage.


In my case, whether I'm working with my wife or not, I make sure to work WITH the photographer and I have the couple pose and perform some interactions that will be more useful to me for the video. Oftentimes this creates great opportunities for the photographer. I would never ask the photographer not to photograph those opportunities, or not to post his shots of those opportunities until I had the DVD done.

Thanks, Travis for the counter. If I were a photographer, I would agree with you 100%.

Galen, I totally disagree with you.

Videographers has the right to shoot the entire day with out any permission from the photographer. (unless the B&G don't want some shots in the video).

ASince the wedding party is paying the photographer and the videographer, they deserve as much as possible of what they are paying for,

That's right, that's why videographers and photographers have to document almost the whole day for the B&G, that's what they pay us for. isn't ?

Videographers has the right to shoot the entire day with out any permission from the photographer.


Believe it or not, here in Hawaii, there are well known photographers that has the couples sign a contract that specifically states that no videographers are allowed during their photo shoot. Their reasoning, besides having the video guys "steal" their poses they set up, is that the people being photographed get distracted by the extra cameras and often don't look at the right camera. Also, the videographer slows down the photoshoot and gets in the way when the photographer is trying to work as quickly as possible on a tight schedule.

Our work-around these guys is to start earlier and do a separate video session. Honestly, this works out great because we can direct the couple to do moving sequences that are clearly meant for video, as opposed to trying to videotape static images.

Believe it or not, here in Hawaii, there are well known photographers that has the couples sign a contract that specifically states that no videographers are allowed during their photo shoot.

Well, I am being paid by the couple to do what I do, and part of that is covering the photoshoot. I have no contract with the photographer, so he has no authority to stop me from filming the photoshoot. That leaves him with taking the matter up with the couple. I suppose he could just refuse to shoot stills, but that's not going to get him any love from the couple.

I actually call photographers I haven't worked with before the wedding. This helps ease their mind on how I will work with them, and it lets them know that I'm a professional and I plan on doing my job.

In my humble opinion, any photographer that can't work with a videographer during the photoshoot is lacking in either experience, skill, professionalism ... or all of the above.

In my humble opinion, any photographer that can't work with a videographer during the photoshoot is lacking in either experience, skill, professionalism ... or all of the above.

The surprising thing is that these photographers with the contracts have been around for over 20 years! They are doing extremely well, are always booked solid, their work and clients are considered "high end" in the industry. The other thing I won't complain about is that they send us lots of referrals. They tell their clients we're easy to work with (although we don't do photoshoots together.) Very interesting but paradoxical....

Hey David,

We actually send out a questionnaire to all of our couples, and one of the questions we ask is who is your photographer. We also get the contact info!

We then check out the photogs site, and see if they're any good! We also keep in mind that if the B&G are paying the photog then they must like something about him or her, even if we think they're no good!

We then shoot over an email to the photog and invite them to go out to get some coffee, and just shoot the breeze! Most of the time this works great for us! Sometimes the photogs have had a bunch of bad experiences with unexperienced videographers who have no clue!

If you can befriend the photog, all is gravy! There are some photogs who just are stubborn, and usually those photogs are the one's who are compensating for their suckiness [i know thats not a word] :)

my .02