I'm wondering if the new manual controls will have a usability issue...

When I put the camera in Manual mode for photos, I can adjust shutter with the top dial, and I can adjust aperture with the big wheel. To adjust ISO, I have to press the ISO button and operate the menu. That might be fine for photos, but is that what we want for video?

In general, I'm going to fix my shutter speed (1/60 or so), and my aperture (as desired for the shot/light), and I will set the ISO between 100 and 1,000, as needed. If I'm smart, I'll add ND filters as needed, so I can shoot at 100 ISO outside and adjust to 1,000 ISO indoors. If I need more range, I'll increase shutter speed outdoors - to a point, or maybe I'll want to change the iris. In any case, ISO is the first on my list.

Not that we've seen the implementation yet, but will we face a situation where we have two knobs for three variables? Maybe the joystick can be used to control ISO. (Tramm?)

And maybe a variable ND setup is the way to go for such wide ranging situations.

Let's hope that Canon nailed the solution. And let's be confident that the 5D Mark Free effort will take care of any rough edges.

So, do others agree that ISO is the first control that you will want to grab to optimize the exposure?

So, do others agree that ISO is the first control that you will want to grab to optimize the exposure?

Can't say I would agree with that. Never in my 27 year history of filming have I ever dialed in more gain on the fly. And really that's pretty much what adding more ISO does.
It is always the last thing I would go for as messing with it will give you an inconsistent look to your footage.

To push one button and change the ISO is perfect IMHO. In fact I'd be more worried about accidentally changing Aperture or Shutter inadvertently. It's good that you can disable the wheel on the rear.

Can't say I would agree with that. Never in my 27 year history of filming have I ever dialed in more gain on the fly.

Agreed. It's like putting a specific type of film in a film camera. I want my 100 for outdoors and 1000 for indoors (for example).
I'll use the right settings for the right condition, and don't feel I need to switch mid-thought.

I hope it's easily accessible for change, but I wouldn't mind it being in a menu or on the top dial or similar.

Shooting a bar or dance hall, for example (I shoot :30 sec. spots), I'd likely be at 400 at the bar itself and 1000 on the dance floor. I want to access both, but not frequently.

Edit: For news gathering and live event coverage, I can now see Jon's point.
For narrative, I don't think I'd change my ISO/ASA/GAIN, though.

So Sean,

When filming a documentary, and walking from indoors to outdoors, what knob would you grab first? Aperture? Shutter? Or are you saying that you'd just hit the AE Lock button and let it adjust the ISO (and other parameters) as needed?

I think in this situation, there's no problem with an inconsistent look - going from inside to out will be inconsistent by definition. The main thing we want is two good looks - and easy user control.

So Sean,

When filming a documentary, and walking from indoors to outdoors, what knob would you grab first? Aperture? Shutter? Or are you saying that you'd just hit the AE Lock button and let it adjust the ISO (and other parameters) as needed?

I think in this situation, there's no problem with an inconsistent look - going from inside to out will be inconsistent by definition. The main thing we want is two good looks - and easy user control.

Generally the only adjustment made during filming is your aperture.

First pick your ASA (film speed/gain setting), in video you usually only have 3 settings (more if you enter menus).
Pick frame rate, over/under crank. Still not possible other than in post on mk2.
Then decide aperture.
Shutter speed is usually 1/30-1/125 (for video or film) stills may make no difference or also be extremely important (stop action or blur for effect).
Use a ND FX polarizer etc (pro vid cams usually have 3 ND settings on a dial).
Then make small adjustment to aperture to get exposure perfect or more frequently change the lighting.

There are lots of different shutter angle/speed, filters we can use for effects. But his is how I usually work anyway. I think the new firmware will take some getting used to but it will give us more control and that is what it is all about.

I am with Jon.

I want to set shutter speed first at 1/60, use my Lenses to manually set Aperature for effect I want ( I use Nikons at this point) then adjust light levels using the ISO and/or NDs. I think rulling out using higher ISO loses the hole point of this camera, it screems in low light situations if you are willing to use higher ISO.

The good news is that there are a lot of ways to skin this cat.

I generally do narrative work, so I don't plan to touch any controls in the middle of a shot. And when I do another take, I want the settings that I had last time.

But for documentaries, you might be following your subject, and you can't predict what lighting conditions they might walk into. The operator needs to respond on the fly.

So far, I hear votes for aperture, variable ND and ISO. With standard manual control and a couple of filters, I know how to do the first two. Adjusting ISO might not be an easy option with the new firmware. We will see...

In any case, I can hardly wait until June 2nd!

where exactly did the June 2nd date come from?
The Canon site doesnt mention a specific date.

This source lists June 2nd...
Canon announces update for EOS 5D Mark II: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0905/09052701canon5dmarkiifirmware.asp?from=rss)

Adjusting ISO might not be an easy option with the new firmware. We will see...

In any case, I can hardly wait until June 2nd!

Adjusting ISO will be done only before hitting record, but won't be adjustable while recording. You can use a Singh-Ray 8stop Vari-ND to accomplish what you need with variable lighting conditions.

Adjusting ISO will be done only before hitting record, but won't be adjustable while recording.

Are you sure about that? According to the Canon site posting, it states:

"...firmware update that enables manual exposure controls while shooting video including: ISO, aperture and shutter speed."

"...firmware update that enables manual exposure controls while shooting video including: ISO, aperture and shutter speed."Ahh. Sixteen beautiful words. :)

It seems it would be smoother and less noticeable to adjust the iris via the ND filter vs. a hard jump by changing ISO.

Know that adjusting aperture on the fly whilst filming is not ideal on the 5D2. The indents of the top wheel is loud and takes significant effort to turn. The lens aperture blades will also change in predetermined stops instead of smooth continuous incremental change, and the blades will make noise as well.. Not sure if you will want to ever adjust aperture on the fly unless it's event or journalism purposes and you have to use the whole footage without breaks. If you want to preserve the same look and dof going from outdoor to indoor, simply hit the ISO button and dial up/down the ISO until you have a proper exposure..

The variable ND filter is not an ideal solution because it will change the shading in the sky depending on the location of the camera relative to the sun.

So Sean,

When filming a documentary, and walking from indoors to outdoors, what knob would you grab first? Aperture? Shutter?

If I was doing a doco with this camera (Which I wouldn't) I would dial in more or less light using the aperture. Granted that adding more ISO is more subtle to what we have been used to with video cameras though. So it might be a whole new way of doing things.

If I was doing a doco with this camera (Which I wouldn't)I have a brave friend who plans to do exactly that. He really wants the shallow DOF artistic look.

I think it will work though. He'll do interviews in controlled situations and create an impression of the subject matter for his B-roll.

The 5D2 would be the wrong camera for making a linear, factual document, but could be perfect for creating an impression about a person, place or idea.

And, yeah, if ISO control isn't available, aperture would be my next choice for bridging the indoors/outdoors gap.

It seems it would be smoother and less noticeable to adjust the iris via the ND filter vs. a hard jump by changing ISO.

a) what ND filter?

b) adjusting a variable ND filter requires touching the lens barrel, and since we're talking specifically about shooting live in this thread, it's near impossible to diddle around with the end of a lens barrel of any significant length on the 5D2 and not have that visible in your footage as your frame jumps around... The 5D2 is a very unstable platform for handheld shooting, unlike "real-er" video cameras. :)

Though I'd usually take the aperture for light control side, the 5D2 has such a range of clean ISO that I'd consider iso on the fly (at least 100-800) a viable option.

a) what ND filter?

b) adjusting a variable ND filter requires touching the lens barrel, and since we're talking specifically about shooting live in this thread, it's near impossible to diddle around with the end of a lens barrel of any significant length on the 5D2 and not have that visible in your footage as your frame jumps around... The 5D2 is a very unstable platform for handheld shooting, unlike "real-er" video cameras. :)

Though I'd usually take the aperture for light control side, the 5D2 has such a range of clean ISO that I'd consider iso on the fly (at least 100-800) a viable option.

Singh-Ray 8 Stop Vari-ND, it's super smooth if you haven't used one.

In my opinion, ISO changes during recording are too obvious and harsh compared to spinning a vari-ND filter that has a smooth transition.

One problem with the ND approach is that it loses light, even when "fully" transparent. If you're shooting in a moderately lit interior and walk outside, it would work well. If the interior is on the dark side, one might be better off ditching the variable ND in order to minimize gain and noise.

That said, in more subtle light changes, the variable ND is clearly the smoothest solution - and even works with today's firmware...

No offense but why are we talking about reinventing the wheel just because we now have the control that we've always had shooting film and video?

You choose your ISO/ASA for each scene, If it's too bright for the aperture setting you want for the composition then you add an ND filter (or if it's a video camera you use the 1 or 2 ND button) you shoot. Shutter speed in film and video NEVER changes scene to scene unless you're going for a special look.

Nothing's changed if you've been doing this stuff. Lock your shutter at 180 degrees, set as low an ISO as possible (who shoots higher gain than 0 with their video camera unless necessary?) set your aperture for exposure. That's how it's always been done. And if you want specific DOF that lighting won't accommodate then, of course, the answer is also industry standard, choose the appropriate level of ND or get a variable one.

Another quick thought about light control.
I was about to get the Singh Ray but opted not to because I anticipated the firmware upgrade and didn't want to spend nearly $400. Instead I got two NDs - 0.9 and 1.8.
If you're in bright conditions, these act pretty much like a typical two stage internal video ND filter.

The fact is, you don't need the expense of the variable ND now that Manual control is here. Because the 5DII looks so good anywhere from 100 ISO to 400 or more, if the light is bright and you want an open aperture, you can put on a 1.8 (or stack the two if it's noon on a snowy mountain and you want perfect bokeh on your 85mm 1.2).

Now you've changed the light as you would with fixed stage video NDs. The difference is you can now use the 5DII's clean ISO to dial back the ideal lighting without the need for the expensive Singh Ray.
One to three stops above 100 ISO would be all you'd ever need and that will still be exceptionally clean and it gives much finer control than with a typical built in video ND system.

Again, you do this before the scene, not changing it as you go.

Jim, while that's true for narrative film, it's not necessarily true for documentaries, sports or ENG.

For instance, the camera follows the marathon runners down the road and into the stadium. Or the cameras follow the football player from the tunnel onto the field. Or you follow the person who stormed off during the interview into the street.

At the recent Monaco GP, the car-mounted cameras had to adjust each lap from the tunnel to the blinding sunlight. I think they used variable iris and maybe gain as well. The shutter looked the same. The tunnel was a bit noisy. The cameras clearly have wide lenses and small sensors, so the DOF doesn't change much anyway. They clearly have to do something. When they approach the tunnel entrance, it's black, and when they approach the exit, the levels are clipped and blown out - even though the tunnel is lined with large lights.

Those POW (lipstick) cams are generally auto iris or even auto everything.

I do ride the iris sometimes in an outdoor interview situation with changing cloud cover.

Unless I take the time to set up a heavy scrim above the talent and a couple HMI's on the talent, witch is the best outdoor setup in my opinion.

Jim, while that's true for narrative film, it's not necessarily true for documentaries, sports or ENG.

For instance, the camera follows the marathon runners down the road and into the stadium. Or the cameras follow the football player from the tunnel onto the field. Or you follow the person who stormed off during the interview into the street.

At the recent Monaco GP, the car-mounted cameras had to adjust each lap from the tunnel to the blinding sunlight. I think they used variable iris and maybe gain as well. The shutter looked the same. The tunnel was a bit noisy. The cameras clearly have wide lenses and small sensors, so the DOF doesn't change much anyway. They clearly have to do something. When they approach the tunnel entrance, it's black, and when they approach the exit, the levels are clipped and blown out - even though the tunnel is lined with large lights.

Not to be contentious Jon but you're talking about the extreme examples that would require the same type of special attention no matter what medium you're shooting with.

I do both narrative, doc and commercial work and two of my most recent docs were about as challenging as you get in regard to your point. One was for the Torino Winter Olympics and the other for the celebration of the 1980 "Miracle Games".

In both instances I followed the top athletes for weeks, in every discipline from bobsled courses to 120 meter ski jumps, downhill, speed skating, biathlon, etc., under the most demanding and variable conditions imaginable and never pulled iris or changed shutter speeds or gain.

It was all done with aperture and NDs.

...under the most demanding and variable conditions imaginable and never pulled iris or changed shutter speeds or gain.

It was all done with aperture and NDs.Jim, I'm confused.

You wrote that you didn't pull iris, but then you wrote that it was done with aperture (and NDs). I'm also not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand how you bridged extreme lighting differences when that occurred in a single shot.

I was shooting video of a car in a barn the other day. Facing into the barn vs. facing out of the barn, the exposure was completely different. For narrative work, I'd control the shot as needed, but had I followed the owner as he spoke and walked around the car, I'd have to change something during the scene. I wasn't able to find a compromise that worked acceptably in both conditions.

Of course, in post, I could pop in some B-roll during the transition, and nobody would be the wiser. I could keep the continuity of the audio, and show the single take as two independent shots.

Anyway, I'm not trying to assert anything, other than I'm not sure how to best solve the problem of extreme differences in lighting in a single take - including when you set up for one lighting condition and things change unexpectedly.

Well we will find out what you can do next week.

Maybe this camera will lead to new ways of working.

I have always used ND and Polarizer filters in conjunction with iris to control light.

Only iris is usually changed while rolling. Some cameras will over and under crank, and you can change that as you are rolling. Though my EX3 can not change frame-rate while rolling.

If you could change shutter and iso as you are rolling maybe that is a new way for special effects.

I personally don't see the need for variable ND, never had one. I have been shooting professionally since the early 70's. Stills, film and video.

The vast change in DOF is something those of us used to small-chip video cameras must address. My guess is that as long as there is enough light to stop the iris down to f5.6 indoors that the shift to f11 outdoors with auto ISO should be fine. If the indoor shot requires f2 at 800iso and the outdoor is f8 at 200iso then the image change will be too dramatic. I just wish there was an iso limiter so that it would never go above 1000iso where the grain is really noticable. Perhaps that will be in the 5D mark free firmware.

I think auto-iso will be okay as long as it doesn't creep up too high. Perhaps manual iris with auto-iso limited to iso800 might work? It would be nicer if the auto-exposure adjustment wheel wasn't so noisy or I would just ride that and adjust aperture to suit my DOF tastes.

Jim, I'm confused.>>

Don't be Jon <g>.


<<You wrote that you didn't pull iris, but then you wrote that it was done with aperture (and NDs). >>

I didn't mean to sound so dogmatic. 99% of the time we set the aperture, didn't pull it.
I was making a general statement about the new manual 5dII.

<<I'm also not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand how you bridged extreme lighting differences when that occurred in a single shot.>>

We didn't adjust the camera on the fly except in the most extreme situations. We did what felt/looked right..let the natural occurrence of changing light occur as it does some times.



<<I was shooting video of a car in a barn the other day. Facing into the barn vs. facing out of the barn, the exposure was completely different. For narrative work, I'd control the shot as needed, but had I followed the owner as he spoke and walked around the car, I'd have to change something during the scene. I wasn't able to find a compromise that worked acceptably in both conditions.>>

For that I would never use a fixed aperture lens as all the Canons and Nikons we're talking about are - it would look choppy and kludgy. For that I had a camera with the 14x manual lens and ND on the front with the fully variable aperture that could be pulled with the right touch.

<<Of course, in post, I could pop in some B-roll during the transition, and nobody would be the wiser. I could keep the continuity of the audio, and show the single take as two independent shots.>>


How it's done probably more often than not.

<<Anyway, I'm not trying to assert anything, other than I'm not sure how to best solve the problem of extreme differences in lighting in a single take - including when you set up for one lighting condition and things change unexpectedly.

Obviously controlling light is the goal of most shooting whether adjusting angles and camera cuts in uncontrollable light or using silks, fill etc., where you can. Iris pulls are definitely doable when necessary, but need a continuous aperture like I described and a bit of finesse.

According to the DP Review site, users will be able to utilize the following:

* Full aperture selection
* ISO speed: Auto, 100 – 6400 and H1
* Shutter speed: 1/30th – 1/4000th second

In other words, you can set your Av, Tv, and place the ISO on Auto to handle the changing lighting conditions...if one so desires.

Canon announces update for EOS 5D Mark II: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0905/09052701canon5dmarkiifirmware.asp)

Obviously controlling light is the goal of most shooting whether adjusting angles and camera cuts in uncontrollable light or using silks, fill etc., where you can. Iris pulls are definitely doable when necessary, but need a continuous aperture like I described and a bit of finesse.The lack of continuous aperture (or shutter or gain) is definitely a limiting factor - as is my lack of experience and finesse!

Thinking back to reporting at F1 races, I often see the camera follow the drivers from parc ferme to the weighing room after the race and notice the operator changing exposure. I've never noticed any steps, so I assume that it's a continuous aperture.

The funny thing is when the camera op walks into the Ferrari pits. Everything is red, and lots of light shines through red banners. The walls are red. The car is red. The uniforms are red. ...And the color balance is terrible! They certainly don't try to correct that on the fly. It just looks bad - unless you are a Ferrari fan. :)

Don't worry. I don't plan to request live WB adjustment for the camera in this lifetime. :)

Are you sure about that? According to the Canon site posting, it states:

"...firmware update that enables manual exposure controls while shooting video including: ISO, aperture and shutter speed."

I hate to be negative, but "while shooting video" can be interpreted as "as part of the overall shooting process". It doesn't specifically say at what moment changes can be made.

I hate to be negative, but "while shooting video" can be interpreted as "as part of the overall shooting process". It doesn't specifically say at what moment changes can be made.If engineers and lawyers got together to write marketing copy, this stuff would be clear. Long and boring, but clear. ;)

I am waiting to see something pop up with the new firmware that says, I am sorry, you are not using a genuine Canon lens. Therefore, the manual features cannot be accessed. (Rasberry sound follows).

If engineers and lawyers got together to write marketing copy, this stuff would be clear. Long and boring, but clear. ;)

As an engineer, I have had to suffer through days of discussions with lawyers to write patents. They are long but rarely clear.

My two cents worth: "while shooting video" as opposed to "shooting stills" is what I interpret; therefore, it does not necessaraly imply that changes can be made in the middle of shooting video.

My two cents worth: "while shooting video" as opposed to "shooting stills" is what I interpret; therefore, it does not necessaraly imply that changes can be made in the middle of shooting video.

I'll be happy as long as they don't change 10 seconds after I set them - or after hitting Pause after recording.

I think this time they mean "Manual." My guess is; there will be no auto-anything once you set your dial to "M," it's there!

I think this time they mean "Manual." My guess is; there will be no auto-anything once you set your dial to "M," it's there!That's the way I read it too - especially since the marketing copy emphasized the "M" mode.

My guess is that Canon will keep the controls in line with a typical Canon DSLR. That means not just "M", but Av, Ap, etc. This makes sense, as their main market is photographers, and they are marketing the video feature to photojournalists - even in China. Any skilled photographer will "get" the camera mode paradigm for video immediately.

We will see...

Jon,

My thoughts exactly.

Yes. We will see...

Rick C.

Singh-Ray 8 Stop Vari-ND, it's super smooth if you haven't used one.


Oh, you mean the $400 variable ND filter that almost none of us own? Kind of makes dialing up/down the ND not an option. :)

How about a drop-in filter like a 4x4 or Cokin? Just yank it out as you go indoors. If your fingers don't go over the lens people won't notice too much. An affordable ND grad could be slid up into it's clear range discretely.

How about a drop-in filter like a 4x4 or Cokin? Just yank it out as you go indoors. If your fingers don't go over the lens people won't notice too much. An affordable ND grad could be slid up into it's clear range discretely.And, as I mentioned earlier, if you can insert B-roll over the transition, you can keep the audio rolling and get good before and after shots - even if your fingers do get caught on "tape".

Oh, you mean the $400 variable ND filter that almost none of us own? Kind of makes dialing up/down the ND not an option. :)

I bought one when I bought the camera. Everybody I know who owns this camera also bought one because it is a valid, useful tool.

It speeds up your shooting process and lowers the fiddle factor by a huge margin.

From the PDN website...

Canon Shares More Details on Video Firmware Update for 5D Mark II (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3i08cf2d81f930019dc359cbc10083b443)


So with that, seems like the DP Review site write up of an "Auto" setting for the ISO may or may not be true.

One thing is for sure, we'll all know for sure come June 2nd (tentatively)!!

I'm with Derek, the Singh Ray Vari ND is well worth the money. Even after I have manual control, I will still need ND. It is so much more gratifying to just rotate the filter to adjust the ND value than to have to unscrew it, remove it from the lens, put it away, get a different one out, screw it back on.

Dan

I'm with Derek, the Singh Ray Vari ND is well worth the money. Even after I have manual control, I will still need ND. It is so much more gratifying to just rotate the filter to adjust the ND value than to have to unscrew it, remove it from the lens, put it away, get a different one out, screw it back on.

Dan

Sliding square filters in and out of a holder is a nice compromise. I got the Cokin system and it is much more reasonably priced.

I'm selling a pile of my Cokin stuff. All I will say is that you get what you pay for. Cokin ND filters are not even close to neutral gray, they have a brownish tint to the grad. Yuck. I have the glass Cokin ND filters as well. They are not in the same league as the Singh Ray.

Dan

I'm selling a pile of my Cokin stuff. All I will say is that you get what you pay for. Cokin ND filters are not even close to neutral gray, they have a brownish tint to the grad. Yuck. I have the glass Cokin ND filters as well. They are not in the same league as the Singh Ray.

Dan

I guess I haven't noticed because I always white balance in post. I'll have to check them out.

I'm wondering if the new manual controls will have a usability issue...

When I put the camera in Manual mode for photos, I can adjust shutter with the top dial, and I can adjust aperture with the big wheel. To adjust ISO, I have to press the ISO button and operate the menu. That might be fine for photos, but is that what we want for video?

In general, I'm going to fix my shutter speed (1/60 or so), and my aperture (as desired for the shot/light), and I will set the ISO between 100 and 1,000, as needed. If I'm smart, I'll add ND filters as needed, so I can shoot at 100 ISO outside and adjust to 1,000 ISO indoors. If I need more range, I'll increase shutter speed outdoors - to a point, or maybe I'll want to change the iris. In any case, ISO is the first on my list.

Not that we've seen the implementation yet, but will we face a situation where we have two knobs for three variables? Maybe the joystick can be used to control ISO. (Tramm?)

And maybe a variable ND setup is the way to go for such wide ranging situations.

Let's hope that Canon nailed the solution. And let's be confident that the 5D Mark Free effort will take care of any rough edges.

So, do others agree that ISO is the first control that you will want to grab to optimize the exposure?

The ability to use "auto ISO" in the M video mode seems to do a good job. At least in my 'wandering around the house video' this evening to try out 1.1.0 the camera does a very nice job of adjusting exposure. I probably won't use this for most scenes but when the light is changing I think it's viable, and better than trying to adjust exposure manually on the fly.