Your logic seems pretty sound, I am impressed. Of course, anything and everything we are discussing is really nothing but conjecture since RED is constantly changing and tinkering with the specs.

I agree, hence, I believe the Scarlet will look a bit different now after the 5D manual control dust has settled. (I also agree that Jon's logic, as always, is impeccable ;^)

-- peer

Clearly, to achieve that frame rate, Scarlet 2/3" must be capable of scanning from top to bottom in no more than 1/180th of a second (5.55ms.) By contrast, the 5D MkII scans in 25 ms (based on research by Mark Hahn, and confirmed by me.)
I'm sure you're right - but how then can the manual 5DII have shutter speeds up to 1/4000 sec?

I'm sure you're right - but how then can the manual 5DII have shutter speeds up to 1/4000 sec?

Shutter speed and read out speed aren't connected. The degree of rolling shutter is a result of how long it takes to read the lines from the top to the bottom (read-reset speed), shutter speed only affects how long each line is exposed for. So each line can be exposed for 1/30th-1/4000 of a second before it is read, but it will always take 25ms to read out all of the lines on the sensor before resetting to the top.

Shutter speed and read out speed aren't connected. The degree of rolling shutter is a result of how long it takes to read the lines from the top to the bottom (read-reset speed), shutter speed only affects how long each line is exposed for. So each line can be exposed for 1/30th-1/4000 of a second before it is read, but it will always take 25ms to read out all of the lines on the sensor before resetting to the top.

Well said, Evan,

Some people are also confused as to how the camera can shoot close to a 1/30 exposure with a 30 fps frame rate and also have rolling shutter.

The answer is that the lines can expose independently as short or as long as they'd like - and they can expose simultaneously. The problem is that they are read out sequentially, and each read takes some amount of time, so the exposures are all offset in time.

In fact the first line can start exposing for the next frame while the last line is still exposing for the current frame, and has yet to be read. It's a bit of a brain bender, that!

The answer is that the lines can expose independently as short or as long as they'd like - and they can expose simultaneously. The problem is that they are read out sequentially, and each read takes some amount of time, so the exposures are all offset in time.

Evan, Jon, thanks for the explanation.

Even the Scarlet 2/3 is a different price range unless you plan on shooting video with just the brain part (2,500$) itself

at 1080p the fastest it goes is 30fps

The rolling shutter might be better at the smaller resolution that can hit 150fps but at 1080p and 30 fps it remains to me be seen. Ergonomics and audio support come from buying the components

Yes and no. Comparing the 5D2 to the Scarlet 2/3" (the Scarlet S35 and FF35 are in a very different price range), here's a quick summary...

5D MkII
* Fantastic low light capabilities
* Full frame DOF - more than Super 35 film
* Support for many, many lenses; you can rent glass in any large city.
* Affordable and widely available

Scarlet 2/3" (expected, anyway)
* Blazing fast capture for slow motion (180 fps burst, I believe)
* 24/25p
* Superior audio support
* No rolling shutter artifact to speak of
* Better ergonomics for video
* Electronic zoom
* Continuous autofocus
* RAW video for smooth grading
* True 1080/2k resolution without aliasing (the 5D has moire artifacts)
* Longer shooting times

If you don't need the 35mm DOF, Scarlet has the potential to be superior in many ways. However, if you want 35mm and you want it now, the 5D MkII is king.

The Scarlet and 5D prices aren't the same, but close enough to compete for similar budgets. I would think that the fixed lens Scarlet is cheaper than the 5D2 plus a moderate lens collection.

Regarding 1080p, the frame rate limitation is probably due to the encoder, or to the limits of HD-SDI or HDMI. It shouldn't affect sensor speed. I'd be really surprised if the rolling shutter varies when choosing RAW or 1080p, unless there's cropping going on.

In fact, here's a tip for getting less rolling shutter on Vimeo with the 5D2. Instead of scaling to 720p, crop. That reduces the top-to-bottom time from 25ms to 16.7ms.

Here's some perspective about the 5D2 sensor vs. the D90. The D90 clearly has worse rolling shutter than the 5D2. Let's assume that it is scanning 90% of the time vs. the 5D2, which scans 75% of the time. (And, yes, this is an assumption.) However, the frame rate is 24p on the D90, rather than 30p on the 5D2. My assumption yields 37.5 ms of scan time top-to-bottom for the D90. Keep in mind that it only has 720 lines vs the 5D2's 1080 lines.

Using my assumption, the D90 scans at 52us per line. The 5D2 scans at about 23us per line. Add it up and the 5D2 sensor is about twice as fast as the D90 sensor - and that's on a full frame vs. APSC chip.

If we assume the Scarlet scan time I posted above, and recall that it has about 50% more lines to scan, it's about 7 times faster than the 5D2 sensor, in terms of line speed. Sure, it's a 2/3" chip vs. full frame, but still, it's pretty impressive!

I'm glad that they decided to fix the problem. They could have very easily just went on to the next model of amazing DSLR's. Thank you Canon!

Hi, everybody!

I am on the verge of buying a new video camera. Last weeks I had numerous headaches looking for the perfect camera 4,000 USD could buy. They are almost all HDV(a home consumer codec and almost dying at only 25Mb/s) and small sensor(1/3"). Till a few days ago I was "hardly determined" to buy the Canon XH A1s, as all my funds are around 4,000USD. After long debate with myself and mostly after seeing the new update I "definitely decided" to go with Canon EOS 5D Mark II, despite the strange ergonomics for shooting video. I intend to shoot mostly drama and I am not very interested in kind of documentary or news shooting style(on the go). I know almost to nothing on AVCHD. So, I have a couple of questions and I am waiting answers from people who have some kind of pro shooting experience with Canon EOS 5D Mark II. Here are my questions:

1. How suited is 5D Mark II for video pro shooting? What kind of problems could appear all along the work flow, starting with shooting and ending with editing.(Have you tried chroma keying? Are there motion artifacts? etc)

2. I read in a manual that video record starts by pressing the "set" button. Is it possible to start recording from a remote control?

I apologize for the long intro and thank you for your answers.

God help us all!
Honestly,
Christian I. Ionescu

at 1080p the fastest it goes is 30fps

The rolling shutter might be better at the smaller resolution that can hit 150fps but at 1080p and 30 fps it remains to me be seen.

Actually, it does 150fps at a higher resolution, not smaller - and that actually suggests to me that the rolling shutter won't change between the two resolutions.

The specs say 120fps at 3k, and 30 at 1080p. If they were just cropping the 3k resolution to get 1080 then there's no reason they couldn't do the same frame rate, and they specify full frame for the 1080 at 30. So the lower frame rate limitation of 1080 comes from the overhead of downsampling (and possibly debayering/compression, if it's going to an RGB codec instead of RAW) and is not a limitation of the sensor. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that the rolling shutter should be the same regardless of the resolution/frame rate.

The 150fps burst at 3k capability to me indicates the likely sensor read-out speed - I'm sure what makes it a 'burst' spec is the storage bottleneck. So the ability to read the entire sensor at 150fps indicates a < 7ms read-reset speed which is about a quarter of the 5D's. Personally I've found the rolling shutter on the 5D to be only a minor inconvenience in everyday use, so I'm pretty confident it won't be an issue at all with Scarlet.

I think a lot of people either discount or simply aren't aware of Scarlet's greatest strength in comparison to almost any other camera - RAW recording. I haven't personally worked with RED RAW footage yet, but I recently did some work with raw data from a 3DVX3 - a DVX100-based 3D frankencam that pulls 10-bit 720p+ RAW data directly from the sensors. The quality of the footage was amazing and a real revelation to work with - side by side with the same subject the footage was as good as (in some cases better than) footage from an HPX500. Amazing, considering it came from standard definition 1/3" chips in a 5-year old, < $4k fixed-lens camera. It made me realize how much of a limitation in-camera processing and compression really is - and how good Scarlet should be considering it's a much more modern, larger, higher resolution sensor. If RED can hit the current specs and ship Scarlet in a reasonable time frame I don't think any current camera will really compare to even the fixed-lens version just because of the RAW capabilities.

HDV (a home consumer codec and almost dying at only 25Mb/s) and small sensor(1/3"). It's important to realize that HDV is *not* a "home consumer codec." HDV is the recording format of a variety of professional-level camera systems including JVC Pro HD as well as Sony and Canon. HDV is consistently used for broadcast applications. It is most definitely not "dying." And the Canon HV series CMOS sensor is actually larger than 1/3rd-inch.

Is it possible to start recording from a remote control?Yes, by using one of a couple of Canon EOS wireless remote controller models, such as the Canon RC-1. Hope this helps,

Yes, by using one of a couple of Canon EOS wireless remote controller models, such as the Canon RC-1. Hope this helps,

Chris, the remote is able to execute the SET button? is the remote IR? Then wouldn't you need to be pointing at the IR port on the camera?

Chris, the remote is able to execute the SET button? is the remote IR? Then wouldn't you need to be pointing at the IR port on the camera?

Discussed here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/236160-zigview-extended-wireless-release.html

I am on the verge of buying a new video camera. [...] I intend to shoot mostly drama [...]
1. How suited is 5D Mark II for video pro shooting? What kind of problems could appear all along the work flow, starting with shooting and ending with editing.(Have you tried chroma keying?

I don't know, but by "drama" if you mean theater plays, then keep in mind that you can only shoot 12 minutes continuously with the 5D.

-- peer

Good point Peer. I have been shooting long interviews and realistically, besides the 4GB limit, to shoot long form, you need to buy two 5D MKIIs and alternate between them because the imager heats up and gets noisy too. I am sure I will be picking up another one or two of them unless something better and cheaper comes out.

Dan

... because the imager heats up and gets noisy too.
Dan

Have you seen this with your own eyes? I shoot with the 5D2 in live mode for 8 to 10 hours a day, all day, and I don't see any extra noise.

I’m not sure if I’ll be able to afford the GH1 for myself let alone buy it for someone else buy if I was extremely rich I would loan one to Tramm Hudson and tell him he can keep it as long as he develops a firmware to enable live output during record mode. If that were to happen, I bet Panasonic would be just as quick to announce a firmware as Canon was.

People were already producing some wonderful stuff. With this firmware, it’s looks like we ain’t seen nothing yet.

I bet Panasonic would be just as quick to announce a firmware as Canon was.

But who cares? As long as it isn't a full frame camera, I'm certainly not looking in Panasonic's direction.

-- peer

That’s almost like saying who cares about the HM100 or the HMC150 when you can get an EX1 with bigger chips.

For the people who either can't afford the 5D Mark II, want an articulating screen, constant auto focusing in video or want a more portable camera, they care.

For the people who either can't afford the 5D Mark II, want an articulating screen, constant auto focusing in video or want a more portable camera, they care.

Yep, people are different. In my case, I was debating getting a ground-glass DOF converter for my already bulky Canon XL2 rig, or get a full frame 5D. What I've always been after is that classy film look.

-- peer

First, thank you all for your responses.

I wonder how other CMOS video cameras deal with the sensor's heat.

@Peer Land: by "drama" I meant that I set up everything before hitting the record button and I am not hunting events to shoot, therefore I do not need auto focus nor auto bla bla bla. I want as many as possible manual controls.
I don't know, but by "drama" if you mean theater plays, then keep in mind that you can only shoot 12 minutes continuously with the 5D.

-- peer

1. How suited is 5D Mark II for video pro shooting?

The 5D is perfect for personal projects and creating pretty images when you have time on your hands.

It can be used for professional work, but due to it's fiddly nature, audio limitations (and being 30p in a 25p country), you can't rely on it as your sole camera if you're doing work for a diverse set of clients.

The XHA1 is a great little camera, much more suited for day to day work. I sold my XHA1 and bought the 5D - a lot of 5D shots have a "wow" factor, but I often miss my XHA1 for ease of use and just getting the job done, hassle free. Lots of little things (like a fold out lcd, built in NDs, proper audio control, 60 minute record time...) make life easier.

By the way, as Chris stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with HDV as impletmented in the XHA1. It's very stable, very effective. I never experienced any issues with Canon HDV (and I owned 4 cameras at one point).

I agree with Josh.

I own the Panasonic AG-HPX170 and while I am totally digging the 5D MKII, I am not grabbing it to shoot broadcast and corporate shows. It is a still camera that shoots great video. The audio is a PITA. Shooting without the manual controls as of today is a PITA (although this will be somewhat remedied on Tuesday). Ergonomically, the 5D MKII is a disaster for shooting hand held especially. Basically, you cannot shoot it hand held without a shoulder mount, tripod, monopod or stabilizer whereas my 170 is a dream to shoot hand held.

As a professional, I cannot imagine only owning and shooting with a 5D MKII, you still need a video camera. As a hobbyist, you could probably survive with just the 5D MKII. For me, it is just another tool, perfect for some situations, mostly ones that I am not getting paid on.

Best,

Dan

If you are an event shooter, I understand the issues and reconize benefits of a video camera. But this camera is about and for the narrative shooter, and with the update coming, it is as close as I will get to the depth of field and sharpeness of film. I am not claiming everything is just like film. And for those hard line "like film shooters" who want 24p, its not there right now.

As it stands, in a narrative setting you would obviously go double system sound, just like the big boys do.. so, I am living with that. If Hudson, gets us to controlable sound level, we may still not have good enough sound capability for narrative work. Peer is a sound guy and he knows more about the specs of the camera to tell us if it goes.

And there aren't many takes I have been involved with that exceed 4 minutes, let alone 12.

But this camera is all about super images, using some wonderful lenses that can be bought for a song. Peer, I am betting that if you buy a the most expensive 35mm adapter you will not get an image on your XL2 anywhere near what this camera will give you.

As it stands, in a narrative setting you would obviously go double system sound, just like the big boys do.. so, I am living with that. If Hudson, gets us to controlable sound level, we may still not have good enough sound capability for narrative work. Peer is a sound guy and he knows more about the specs of the camera to tell us if it goes.

Many of us have listed items that we want in a new firmware (and/or perhaps in a new camera altogether). But now, after we've gotten the most sought after manual controls, I must say that THE function that would make me the happiest would be time-code.

Obviously, with implemented time-code it would be possible to quite elegantly run double-sys audio, without using a clapperboard or some other inane sync methods (sorry if I offended any hand-clappers out there ;^)

But this camera is all about super images, using some wonderful lenses that can be bought for a song. Peer, I am betting that if you buy a the most expensive 35mm adapter you will not get an image on your XL2 anywhere near what this camera will give you.

Yes, Chris, I believe you -- and hopefully soon I'll have my little 5D too (but man, will I miss the XL2's versatile audio).

-- peer

So when exactly will the firmware be available for download? Midnight tonight?

The XHA1 is a great little camera, much more suited for day to day work. I sold my XHA1 and bought the 5D - a lot of 5D shots have a "wow" factor, but I often miss my XHA1 for ease of use and just getting the job done, hassle free. Lots of little things (like a fold out lcd, built in NDs, proper audio control, 60 minute record time...) make life easier.


Just to second Josh's comments here - I'm actually glad I held off on selling the XHA1 until after I had a chance to shoot a while with the 5D. As it stands now I'm using the 5D primarily for short narrative films and still using the XHA1 for paid corporate work which consist of primarily interviews, etc.

That said, I see the potential for the 5D to start taking over more of the paid duties in the near future. The combination of the manual controls in the Canon firmware + Tramm's audio fixes address a lot of the limitations of the 5D for the type of paid work I do. I'm looking forward to testing the juicedLink with Tramm's firmware, I think the combo will work very well for single system sound in interview situations.

I also recently shot a fight night at my gym handheld with the 5D & kit lens - without a shoulder brace the ergonomics weren't great, but even manually pulling focus on boxers moving quickly around the ring wasn't too dificult @ f4. The biggest issue I had was shutter speed - 1/30th is too slow for fast action like that - but the canon firmware should fix that issue. Add some sort of shoulder support into the mix and I'm starting to think the XHA1 may be spending a lot more time at home soon.

Another PAL user waiting for a 25p firware upgrade? Canon... where are you?

Well I downloaded the firmware 1.1.0, even after setting the shutter as well as aperture 5DM2 chooses exposure by itself. I feel the aperture as well as shutter are over ride by the camera, even in manual, AV & TV modes. Even I changed the ISO from A to upto 400.

Ashok

Ashok, did you make sure to remove the battery after updating the firmware? The new firmware doesn't take hold unless the camera battery has been removed completely from the camera for a few seconds and then reinserted. Also, make sure that Exposure Simulation isn't on. Manual control isn't available in movie mode when Exp. Sim. is activated.

Go to Menu > Settings 2 > Live View / Movie func. set. > LV func. setting > Stills+movie > Movie display (not Exposure simulation).

Hope this helps,

Yes the Exposure simulation was on now I turned it off & getting the results. What ISO setting to be made, in earlier replies to others you said the shutter will be between 1/30 to 1/125 so should I set the shutter in between the above?

Hi Ashok,

Previously when movie mode was auto only, the camera would select a shutter speed between 1/30 to 1/125. With the firmware update, you can select any shutter speed you want when shooting a movie in Manual mode, but the 1/30 to 1/125 range is what's recommended by Canon.

Ashok, did you make sure to remove the battery after updating the firmware? The new firmware doesn't take hold unless the camera battery has been removed completely from the camera for a few seconds and then reinserted. Also, make sure that Exposure Simulation isn't on. Manual control isn't available in movie mode when Exp. Sim. is activated.

Go to Menu > Settings 2 > Live View / Movie func. set. > LV func. setting > Stills+movie > Movie display (not Exposure simulation).

Hope this helps,

I made this same mistake yesterday, while alpha testing beta 2 0.1.5 for Hudson. Somehow that setting changed. It was freaking me out at first, but I ultimately resolved it. I am sure my initial reports of the problem and my error were a relief to Hudson. I actually went so far as to reinstall, 1.07, then 1.10 before I discovered real issue.

What ISO setting would be better?

Just thought I would chime in and say that Canon should really change the frame rate from 30.00 to 29.97. I know the issue is probably that capturing 30 progressive stills is easier than doing the industry standard 29.97fps, but it just seems like such a basic thing. 24p would be nice too! (23.98!)
-Steve

What ISO setting would be better?The best ISO setting depends entirely upon your particular shooting conditions and the amount of available light that you have to work with. Basically, the lower the ISO value, the less electronic noise is introduced, but the 5D Mark II has pretty clean gain all the way up into higher ISO values. Try starting with ISO 100 and work your way up from there to whatever value provides the best image based on the amount of light you have.

In normal lighting situations, I have been treating ISO as the exposure variant. This is because I want a standard 1/60 shutter speed, and want control of depth of field.

In bright daylight, this also requires use of an ND filter. I have ordered a variable ND filter for testing for those purposes, though and ND8 worked well for me in bright outdoor conditions.

In normal lighting situations, I have been treating ISO as the exposure variant. This is because I want a standard 1/60 shutter speed, and want control of depth of field.

In bright daylight, this also requires use of an ND filter. I have ordered a variable ND filter for testing for those purposes, though and ND8 worked well for me in bright outdoor conditions.This is my modus operandi too. Set the shutter speed (here in 50Hz electricity land that's 1/50 under artificial lights) then the aperture for the DOF required & let the ISO float. The ISO adjusts in a very intelligent way for shooting video as it is 'damped' & doesn't flip up & down all the time with changing light conditions but smoothly & slowly adjusts itself. This avoids the classic amateurish 'pumping' up & down of light levels that is usually seen with auto-ISO even on professional camcorders e.g. Canon XH-A1. You can keep the variable ND filter on all the time except in very low light levels as there is minimal grain even at high ISO. I have switched on Highlight Tone Priority which has a minimum ISO of 200 which negates the effect of the ND filter at minimum.