just got the T1i for 720p only, almost identical video as the 5D Mk. II (not quite as shallow DOF). I really hope it gets an update as well. Awesome technology.

The lack of 25p is the single most baffling aspect of this camera.

It's a very serious shortcoming which hopefully will be addressed, one way or the other.

Please point me towards a detailed explanation of what I'm missing for want of 25p in MkII?

This has brought tears to my eyes. Thank you Canon!!

Yep this is truly awesome. My 5D MKII just increased in value! Now if they could do something for the housing market! :)

give u 24p and it's a perfect camera.

I keep checking B&H for the 5DM2 kit to be in stock. I guess even if ordered today, I would be waiting on Canon for the firmware. I'm just more than excited right now.

People will whine and complain until the 5D cures cancer and world hunger. Until then, it's useless;)

Thank you Canon for giving us manual control! Canon could've easily released a different version of this camera with manual controls, and I would've bought it. But instead, they do the miraculous... They give us a free firmware update. Oh, happy day. I've always been a Canon fanboy... But now I'm loyal customer for life. This is too good. Tramm, thanks for propelling Canon in this direction, and getting them woke up on this whole thing. I am celebrating all day. I'm floating! 24p? 24p? We'll see. Make it happen Canon. I love my 5dmII.

Well, to be fair to those who remain persistent in their requests from Canon, without them we probably wouldn't have gotten anything at all.
It's also important to remember that on the list of requested features, 24/25p did rank high, certainly in the top 3 requested features.

1. Manual Exposure Control (Iris, shutter, ISO)
2. 24/25p
3. Manual Audio Control (currently being worked on by Tramm for the 5DMkFree hack)

I knew Canon's main priority was to stop the bleeding of people going out and buying Nikon's lenses with adapters.
So as of right now, Canon addressed one of the 3 top requests, but didn't bother with the others. Stu Maschwitz of ProLost helped to initiate the first round of firestorms against Canon, and even with the firmware update he isn't letting up because he knows how important 24p is.
Canon obviously knows now who these features appeal to, yet the absence of 24p really raises concerns about whether or not the indie filmmaker's interests have really been taken into account.

I feel like a kid who just learned that mom really did get him that candy apple red bicycle for Christmas (yay!) - but the big day is still almost a week away. I can hardly wait!

Jon,

Would you please confirm whether this upgrade will be available to Mk II's in PAL land?

Brendan -- since there is only one single camera model sold worldwide, with no differences at all among units sold in Europe or North America or elsewhere, the firmware upgrade does indeed apply to all 5D2 cameras everywhere on the planet.

Would you please confirm whether this upgrade will be available to Mk II's in PAL land?
Chris is right. It will be available worldwide.

That said, there's still no word on 25p. The options for creating a 25p result are:
1) Slow the footage by 20%,
2) Wait for a 25p firmware update, (I predict before the holidays, but there's no guarantee.)
3) Use After Effects or some other software for the format conversion, (slow, limited quality) or
4) Just post your stuff on the web where the frame rate doesn't matter!

Hopefully, Canon will make this issue moot sooner, rather than later...

2) Wait for a 25p firmware update, (I predict before the holidays, but there's no guarantee.)
Please forgive my question, but which holiday? I hope you're not referring to Christmas...

Hopefully, Canon will make this issue moot sooner, rather than later...

Amen!

Of course, we have Mr H on our side.

June can't come soon enough!

Please forgive my question, but which holiday? I hope you're not referring to Christmas...Yes. Christmas. My prediction is that it will be available before the holiday selling season.

But note that 25p could come next week, and my prediction would still hold true. :)

[DISCLAIMER: My 25p prediction is based on nothing except for a gut feel - and a sense of the worst case. If it's not available by Christmas, it's probably not coming at all. I have no insider information whatsoever.]

Does anyone else find it curious that this firmware release is scheduled to happen right around the time that the GH1 is being released in North America?

Perhaps Canon feeling a little competition from Matsushita?

Now we just need Nikon to make a surprise announcement involving June and the circle will be complete...

Very curious, pathetically curious even.

So, now that the game has changed, they have decided to create an update that will solve some of their serious problems.

I think I shall still invest in the GH1 on principle. It just shows who the real boundary-pushers are and its certainly not Canon, they are simply squeezing every last drop of dated capability out of their consumers before moving on with slow and deliberate hesitation.

Great news indeed. Going to make things a lot more interesting, just glad I never got caught up in getting Nikon glass.... even though I was almost there. Thank you canon.

...with slow and deliberate hesitation.I don't know. In the corporate world, getting everybody to agree on what to do, setting the specification, writing the code, testing the code, fixing the bugs, releasing the firmware and (I assume) the documentation in seven months isn't fast, but it's not necessarily foot dragging. Rather than a decision to delay, it was more likely a delay before they came to a consensus decision.

I've evaluated the shutter speeds pretty closely, as has Mark Hahn, and it's clear that they didn't have everything implemented to just turn on manual control. The available shutter speeds are really coarse and don't even match the displayed values!

Canon earned back a lot of my respect with the announcement of this release. If they do 24/25p as well, it will be two big thumbs up!

Going back to my original "good conversation with Canon" thread, I've been maintaining Canon would do this. And Chris, while I'm grateful for what Tramm has done, I bet some friends last night that Canon would announce this by early June to counter the release of the all manual GH1.

I win a bottle of tequila and a fully manual 5DII.

How confident was I?
I ordered the 85mm 1.4, 35mm 1.4 and an H4N last week.

I ordered the 85mm 1.4, 35mm 1.4 and an H4N last week.Do you mean the 85mm f/1.2?

So, what brand tequila is it? ;)

oops, yeah Jon, the big honkin' f/1.2
I've been wanting to replace my Nikon 85mm with the Canon since I got the 5DII but was waiting for the update.

After several years using Nikons on the Mini35 and Letus setups, it's going to be really nice to have AF on all my lenses. Now my kit is all Canon: 24-105 F/4, 35mm f/1.4, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.2

And the tequila is Corzo.

Please point me towards a detailed explanation of what I'm missing for want of 25p in MkII?

Simple explantion:

First, in a Pal market (unless you're making something soley for web distribution), you've got to get the footage to 25p for DVD distribution / broadcast. While most of my work is for the web, the majority of my clients want a DVD version in addition to the web version, making the 5D a pain in the neck for day to day work.

Second, you also need it to be 25p to integrate it with footage from other cameras.

Third, recording 30p in an environment with 50hz lighting often leads to flicker (although this is less of a problem because at least you can see it in the viewfinder when it's occuring and do something about it).

I'm having a better morning, thanks to Chris, Jon and Josh .....

I'll be waiting for Canon & the icing on the Christmas cake with more optimism than usual ...

Great news indeed. Going to make things a lot more interesting, just glad I never got caught up in getting Nikon glass.... even though I was almost there. Thank you canon.

I've bought ten or so Nikkors and will probaly keep most of them.

Even after this update, second hand Nikkor AIS glass is a super affordable way to get a bunch of sharp, fast primes on your 5D, all with really smooth focussing action.

Even using Nikkors, this update will make life easier.

A few months ago, I got an email from Canon asking me (and probably thousands of my closest friends!) to write a 5D mk II review on the Canon web site. I submitted my review, and posted about it here on DVInfo.net. I suggested everybody complain about the lack of manual controls in video mode, and sure enough, pretty much every review ever since that time has made mention of it.

That said, even though I always complied with Canon's terms, my review was never published. I tried about 10 times, each time tweaking any language which I thought Canon may in some weird way take as being offensive or against its terms. Eventually I gave up. The word was out, and, like I said, pretty much every review mentioned the problem.

And so it is with more than just a little surprise that today, Canon finally deemed to publish my latest review of the Camera... the one that's gushing with praise and has no negative comments about the LACK of manual control! Here it is, just for the fun of it:

"With today's announcement by Canon that the 5D mk II will finally have full manual control in video mode via a firmware update (as it should have had from the beginning!), this camera will finally be able to live up to its enormous potential.

Now we can use all our expensive L lenses to shoot great video without having to jump through hoops to do it.

Good job Canon. Now this is THE camera to own."

I still don't know why they wouldn't publish any of my other attempts. They were far less negative than many!

Julian

Here's the original thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/143757-canon-requesting-reviews.html

Even after this update, second hand Nikkor AIS glass is a super affordable way to get a bunch of sharp, fast primes on your 5D, all with really smooth focussing action.I have accumulated a bunch of great old Nikkors from 24mm to 300mm for less than the cost of one new Canon lens.

There are also some really nice manual Canon FD lenses. For 60 Euros I just got a beautiful F/3.5 35-105mm that looks absolutely brand new is pin sharp & has a very smooth aperture/focus/zoom mechanism. It did cost me another 35 Euros for the FD>EF adaptor but for the equivalent of less than $130 I have a great flexible lens with manual aperture.

Back to the Firmware.

AFAIK there has been no official announcement in Europe or Asia yet? So maybe there is hope for 25 fps. I mean there is no need for the Canon USA to mention it as it's not relevant to that market. The only thing our NTSC brothers would be after is 24 fps.

Do you think maybe they will do a firmware update for the different regions, if having the ability to change the frame rate by the user is too hard an option to put in?

So maybe there is hope for 25 fps.

I've been thinking the same thing... maybe, just maybe there is more to the update than what was included in the bare threads announcement. After all, it didn't say exposure control *exclusively* had been addressed. But then, I wouldn't get my hopes up my Aussie friend.

I may be naive, but I think Canon always saw the 5D as a still camera. And the added HD vid was a kind of experiment, because of a wish from AP photographers wanting video for web capability. And for that the initial release was just about right.

How often does a new way of thinking come out right on the first try?

I am amazed that Canon updated this quickly. I think they had no idea what effect the mk2 would have on us shooters.

I think Canon has always been a very daring and innovative company lots of firsts, incredible glass etc.

This quick new firmware demonstrates their commitment to their customers.

Thank you Canon. I know you pulled time out of other projects to fix this quickly.

Even using Nikkors, this update will make life easier.

I agree, just for being able to lock down the shutter. Although, who knows how manual will actually work with a non-Canon lens attached? It wouldn't be beyond reason to think it might just work the same way as it does today. In a way, that would make sense, no reason to make using non-Canon glass any easier now would it?

Also, it's going to be interesting to see some other aspects of how this was actually implemented. For example, will they stick to the limited range of shutter speeds and apertures that auto mode had? So, you get manual control over limited settings? Or will all speeds and f-stops be available (b/w the supported ranges)? Also, will you be able to change settings WHILE recording? For the indie types that probably won't be a problem because you wouldn't change your setup mid-take, but I can think of some instances where it might be nice to have that option. Also, will exposure compensation work in manual? While recording or not recording? Not sure you'd need it of course, but it'll be interesting to see if you can and how it operates (changes ISO maybe?).

Anyway, not nitpicking at all, I love the fact they listened and reacted, I'm just real curious to see how this was implemented...

Canon, thank you for listening to your user base. My L lenses were very happy to hear this news. Now they're telling me they want 24P. Please...

I've been thinking the same thing... maybe, just maybe there is more to the update than what was included in the bare threads announcement. After all, it didn't say exposure control *exclusively* had been addressed. But then, I wouldn't get my hopes up my Aussie friend.

But equally they didn't say 'Full' Manual control, will it be full, where every ISO/Shutter/F number is available to us, or something less?

I think if they had more features built into this update, they would certainly blow their horn about it.

I think if they had more features built into this update, they would certainly blow their horn about it.They announced enough to get our attention. There's a possibility that they will add even more features and have additional horns to toot. That would get them two big news week cycles.

My hopes are high, but my expectations (beyond solid manual control) are not.

If they had waited one more day, I would have purchased a Nikon 80-200 manual lens used. Now, I might put that money towards a Canon 80-200 IS USM which may mean another $1600 to Canon instead of more used Nikon glass. I don't mind manual lenses at all but the IS in a telephoto would be quite helpful.

Considering the update isn't ready yet, I'm starting to think a lack of manual control was just a huge oversight on their part. Without manual control on video, that also means no manual control shooting in live view mode. That all seems like they weren't completely ready for live view mode when it was released. I'm glad I got this camera, especially now that there are firmware updates coming from two directions.

Good NEWSSSS

EOS (SLR) Camera Systems - EOS Digital SLR Cameras - EOS 35mm SLR Cameras - Lenses - Flashes - EOS 5D Mark II Firmware Upgrade - Canon USA Consumer Products (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=MultiMiscPageAct&key=EOS_5DMKII_Firmware&fcategoryid=139&WT.mc_id=EM0905EO04001&Lead.FirstName=Thanh&LTYP=FRIENDS&CollateralRequest.CollateralRequestID=7866CR1000002618&Lead.Email=lvktv%40yahoo.com&cmpgn=eosn&LID=Lead.LeadID&Lead.LeadID=19248687)

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/images/EOS_2009/5Dfirmware/eos5dmarkii_03.gif

The above describes the sensor as 24mm x 36mm which provides depth of feild characteristics unseen in ANY video camera.

Am I to understand that this 5DMarkII will provide depth of field the same or similar to full 35mm film during video mode? Or is this only providing DoF similar to 16mm film during video operation?

Thanks

There are also some really nice manual Canon FD lenses. For 60 Euros I just got a beautiful F/3.5 35-105mm that looks absolutely brand new is pin sharp & has a very smooth aperture/focus/zoom mechanism. It did cost me another 35 Euros for the FD>EF adaptor but for the equivalent of less than $130 I have a great flexible lens with manual aperture.

Not to derail the thread, but I purchased an FD adapter as well (probably the same one) and was unimpressed by the results. Besides the softer image, the amount of light loss was very significant. 2 stops roughly. I have detailed notes & numbers, but never posted them since everyone was buying Nikons anyway.

The above describes the sensor as 24mm x 36mm which provides depth of feild characteristics unseen in ANY video camera.

Am I to understand that this 5DMarkII will provide depth of field the same or similar to full 35mm film during video mode? Or is this only providing DoF similar to 16mm film during video operation?

Thanks

Same DOF as 35mm stills film, yes. Hence the collective love affair with the camera. :)

I've bought ten or so Nikkors and will probaly keep most of them.

Even after this update, second hand Nikkor AIS glass is a super affordable way to get a bunch of sharp, fast primes on your 5D, all with really smooth focussing action.

Even using Nikkors, this update will make life easier.

Same here. For cinematic work I don't need AF, so the Nikon primes are a bargain. I think I bought 8 or so, none over $150.

Same here. For cinematic work I don't need AF, so the Nikon primes are a bargain. I think I bought 8 or so, none over $150.

Thanks for the help Dylan. I have some manual focus Nikon lenses for 35mm film cameras that I am using with a Brevis adapter.....can I use them on this 5D MarkII camera??

Thanks for the help Dylan. I have some manual focus Nikon lenses for 35mm film cameras that I am using with a Brevis adapter.....can I use them on this 5D MarkII camera??

With the help of a Nikon - EF adapter, yes. Do a quick search in this section and you'll come up with detailed threads on what is available. Many of us are using cheap $8 adapters off Ebay and are quite happy.

Wow...It seems this could out do the Red Scarlet.

Not to derail the thread, but I purchased an FD adapter as well (probably the same one) and was unimpressed by the results. Besides the softer image, the amount of light loss was very significant. 2 stops roughly. I have detailed notes & numbers, but never posted them since everyone was buying Nikons anyway.Having done a bit more testing I would agree that the image is a bit softer Perhaps I didn't do such detailed testing as I honestly didn't notice 2 stops difference in exposure & I did stop down to F22 but it was a very bright & sunny day. The one FD lens I do have (35-105mm F3.5) has a reputation for being particularly sharp so maybe this offsets the softening of the adaptor to some extent.

The problem with FD->EF adapters (for those reading apart from Dylan) is this. When Canon moved from FD to EF they changed the focal point of the lenses & without adding a lens in the adaptor they cannot focus to infinity when mounted on an EOS. Given the price of the adaptors you can bet that the adaptor lens doesn't match the quality of the Canon lens so in general these adaptors have a poor reputation. There is also a increase in focal length of approx 1.25X.

Lenses of most every other type of mount can be fitted to the 5DII using a simple adaptor with no glass in it & thus no possibility of diminishing the optical quality. Given the potential for problems & disappointment with FD lenses on the 5DII & the fact there are so many other lenses that will work without problems I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy an FD lens & adapter.

Wow...It seems this could out do the Red Scarlet.

Yes and no. Comparing the 5D2 to the Scarlet 2/3" (the Scarlet S35 and FF35 are in a very different price range), here's a quick summary...

5D MkII
* Fantastic low light capabilities
* Full frame DOF - more than Super 35 film
* Support for many, many lenses; you can rent glass in any large city.
* Affordable and widely available

Scarlet 2/3" (expected, anyway)
* Blazing fast capture for slow motion (180 fps burst, I believe)
* 24/25p
* Superior audio support
* No rolling shutter artifact to speak of
* Better ergonomics for video
* Electronic zoom
* Continuous autofocus
* RAW video for smooth grading
* True 1080/2k resolution without aliasing (the 5D has moire artifacts)
* Longer shooting times

If you don't need the 35mm DOF, Scarlet has the potential to be superior in many ways. However, if you want 35mm and you want it now, the 5D MkII is king.

Scarlet 2/3" (expected, anyway)
* No rolling shutter artifact to speak of


Jon:

Have you shot with the RED One? I have. Scarlet will have some rolling shutter artifacts because it will have a CMOS imager with a rolling shutter. It is just a matter of how apparent the rolling shutter artifacts will be.

Dan

The new firmware - something I've been quietly waiting for -is here. But, despite my reading of all the threads, I'm a bit confused -what does it all mean?

My understanding is that this new firmware essentially makes the video grabbing aspect easier - no more changing f stops and shutter rates - but alters nothing else.

If I bought a new, up-graded Mark II, what exactly can I do as a film maker? How close can I get to 24p? Does the firmware change the compression rates or ability to transfer the video data to editing systems? Does it (can it) address rolling shutter?

I understand the pros/cons of shooting a feature w/ a DSLR (ie - no eyepiece, strange form factor), but I'm not sure exactly how the new firmware would impact trying to shoot a feature.

Any ideas/thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

john

The thing is, we don't know. All the press release says is that we can control the aperture, ISO and shutter speed, within the stated limits. It doesn't say if we can change any/all of those settings during filming, or if they can only be set prior to pressing the record button. The press release says nothing about 24fps, so I would assume, at this point, that the camera will be stuck at 30fps, as it is now. The same for compression rates... no change has been stated.

Julian

Scarlet will have some rolling shutter artifacts because it will have a CMOS imager with a rolling shutter. It is just a matter of how apparent the rolling shutter artifacts will be. I expect that the 2/3" Scarlet rolling shutter will be much less than the Red One, simply because of that 180 fps burst speed.

Clearly, to achieve that frame rate, Scarlet 2/3" must be capable of scanning from top to bottom in no more than 1/180th of a second (5.55ms.) By contrast, the 5D MkII scans in 25 ms (based on research by Mark Hahn, and confirmed by me.)

Anyway, in theory, Scarlet's rolling shutter should be about five times faster than the 5D2's - and better than the Red One's as well.

Of course, this is all theory. We will see when Scarlet actually hits the streets.

My understanding is that this new firmware essentially makes the video grabbing aspect easier - no more changing f stops and shutter rates - but alters nothing else.

That's the working assumption. Rather than the camera setting its own aperture, shutter and ISO - and forgetting all the settings between shots - we should be able to set each of these variables and have them stay fixed from shot to shot.

In the end it will speed up production (no more messing with the camera to get the settings we want), it will reduce the chance of error due to simplicity, and it will help us ensure good matching from shot to shot.

It might also help us get a specific look - especially with Canon lenses - that wasn't available before. The automatic software would often jump between levels, and effectively made some settings impossible to achieve.

So... in theory, we will be able to 1) dial in exactly what we want, and 2) not have to adjust anything from one take to the next.

We will know more next week...

I expect that the 2/3" Scarlet rolling shutter will be much less than the Red One, simply because of that 180 fps burst speed.

Clearly, to achieve that frame rate, Scarlet 2/3" must be capable of scanning from top to bottom in no more than 1/180th of a second (5.55ms.) By contrast, the 5D MkII scans in 25 ms (based on research by Mark Hahn, and confirmed by me.)

Anyway, in theory, Scarlet's rolling shutter should be about five times faster than the 5D2's - and better than the Red One's as well.

Of course, this is all theory. We will see when Scarlet actually hits the streets.

Your logic seems pretty sound, I am impressed. Of course, anything and everything we are discussing is really nothing but conjecture since RED is constantly changing and tinkering with the specs.

Dan