Hi,
I really enjoy making wildlife films, but I'm often struggling with the zoom capabilities of my current cameras - Sony FX1 and A1 - both 12X..... So I have played around with teleconverters (mid range raynox jobs) with no real joy, seem to get too much in the way of CA - i guess this would diminish with better glass. I've also got a Letus Extreme which I have used a couple of times with a 400mm FD lens, which when coupled with a 2x extender and zooming at max on the FX1, gives me a reasonable zoom, I guess around 1000mm. But then the DOF becomes pretty hard to control and the whole setup becomes as wieldy as trying to butter a bagel with a shovel. Plus the image quality does get very soft....
So i'm thinking about an upgrade, maybe selling some old kit and one of the cameras and investing a little more in some new kit that will be good to use day to day but also have the capability to reach further in HDV. Budget wise this could stretch to maybe £4,500 perhaps....

Now the options I've seen posted on this board from research seem to be:
Sony V1/Z5 with teleconverter (century optics 2x)
Canon XL H1 w/ EF adapter, and decent lenses (dont own any EF at present) -probably second hand from the price bracket I'm looking at.

I'd be grateful for any advice in this area for these or any other options....

Hi
I use the sony EX3 with an adapter to my nikon lenses. I use a 120-300mm Sigma lens together with the adapter. The adapter gives an magnification 5,5 wich gives me a tele with around 1500mm (I guess) But the most important thing is that the material is absolutely fantastic. The camera can record up to 60 frames - and in a 25 P project it gives a great slowmotion. Today I use this combination for almost all tele-work and my expensive broadcast camera is only used for handheld work. If I were you - I would go for the EX3 because of the interchangeble lenses and no need for teleconverters, that just dosent makes the pictures more crispy....
Bo

Rob,
The Canon system is so versatile, that you really won't go wrong with it. Since your price range looks to be about $9000 (is that an accurate conversion), you could get the new
version of the XLH1 (I forget the actual name, but there are fewer bells and whistles, and it's only $5-6000), the EF adapter for $500 and a perfectly good 70-300mm zoom for another $600, and you're in business.

Rob,
as an old Canon user from the days of XL2 and on the H1 the last 3.5 years, what I'm going to tell you may surprise you a bit.
I have been using a setup of H1 with ef-adapter and lenses like - 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8/4.0 and 500mm f4.0 for a long time with good results. But, there's a big question here, because camcorders on the marked today are starting to be tapeless with lots of handy functions.
Canon don't seem to follow up, and if I was in the situation of buying a new system today, I would definitive think of tapeless with functions like pre-record buffer and time laps and over-, undercrank.
I don't have a clue of how many times I missed the "moneyshot" because the camcorder had gone to stop and it takes approx. 3-4 seconds before it actually start recording after you hit the record button (HDV).
For wildlife, function mention here is essential IMHO!

You're also telling that you don't have any lenses yet, so you can go start with whatever system you like!

I don't want to promote for any special brand, but I will strongly advise you to think over, what's your requirements are. For wildlife I will say - system with interchangeble lenses (for long telephoto), over-, undercrank (for slowmotion and timelaps) and preferable pre-record buffer. That's my most major/important points if I had to invest in new gear today!

Guys, thanks for your responses!!

I think a lot of this choice is going to be motivated by cost - with the recent weakening of the pound and price rises, the EX3 solution is looking a little bit out of reach now...........
I have had a good think about the whole tapeless thing, and TBH although it's a bit of a pain, having to capture tapes is not something that has a detrimental effect on the way I work, so it becomes a bit of a moot point.
Going to have a look at a second hand xl h1 tomorrow, for what seems to be a good price - I'll let you know how i get on!!!

I found the built in lens to my Sony DSR-250 was a bit limiting, as in not wide enough or long enough, so I bought the top of the line wide and 2x converters... the result is the damn things just sit in the bag 99% of the time, and even though I spent serious money on them, the chromatic abberation was horrible especially with the 2x. Not only that, the 0.66x Raynox was not all that much of an improvement.

I should have learnt from my 35mm stills days, and stuck to the optics that could do the job without bolt-on bits.

In the end, I bought a DSR-570 with Fujinon lens. This gives me the 35mm equivalent of an 18 to 800mm zoom. I bought it second hand, and spent less than $11K all up. Having the aspherical glass, the pictures are razor sharp.

Ben

You're also telling that you don't have any lenses yet, so you can go start with whatever system you like!

For wildlife I will say - system with interchangeble lenses (for long telephoto), over-, undercrank (for slowmotion and timelaps) and preferable pre-record buffer. That's my most major/important points if I had to invest in new gear today!

Per,
Do you know of any HD cam with good over/under-crank for slowmotion in particular? If it has pre-record buffer, all the better?
I enjoyed your videos of 2 swans ... it's great to see someone else tracking birdflight for a change.

Per,
Do you know of any HD cam with good over/under-crank for slowmotion in particular? If it has pre-record buffer, all the better?


Well, the Sony EX3 has it, think Bo must chime in to tell how good this is? But the EX3 dosn't have any pre-record buffer AFAIK.

Per,
I was filming the other day with a guy who was using a tapeless Sony camcorder. He told me that the memory cards in his unit cost $1400 each! So what do you do when one fills up? I guess the only solution is to download to tape for storage, erase the disc and start over. But what happens when you are in the field, and the disc fills? You can't just slip in a tape and keep going.

Steve, have a search for MxR - using SDHC cards and kingston adapters instead of Sony SXS... pretty crazy really!!!
Looks like I may have a couple of options on an XL H1 to consider, which is nice. Really quite looking forward to it!!!

I think this could have been said every month for the last 100 years: Things are going so fast now. I do not know if there is any other cameras around the corner that have all what we need right now - but there certainly is. I can only say that I am very happy about the EX3. I use it a lot, because of the great slowmotion features. Swans - taking off, landing or just flying - fantastic when recorded in 60 frames and played back in 25 frames per. second. There are other possibilities with small sony cameraes that can record a lot of frames in 3 seconds - but that reqiures a lot of work to make it usable. Some other cameraes - like "the Red" can also record a lot of frames - but it is just not very handy for wildlife shooting. Only thing is - if i should say anything negative about the EX3 is that it is very difficult to focus on any moving object on an LCD viewfinder. The Focus assist - on the EX3 and on other LCD monitors - seems only to work when there is no movement to the objects. Probably because anything that moves - dont know what it is called in english - just is not sharp enoug to trig the focus assist. Second the LCD monitors still isent fast enough.

It helps a lot to hear the voice of real experience.

Thank you Bo, very much.

Good evening,


What Bo writes of of value to be certain. thought I would share my purchase process.


when i went to buy I was not looking at initial costs as a problem. I nailed it down to an ex 3 or an xlh1 or a Red. I did a cost analysis of a red and all the necessary add ons and gear to make it viable and I was up over 20 thousand dollars (27,000 canadain). Not impossible to do but quite expensive, also requiring huge upgrades in other areas for me as well, now making things even more costly. I looked at the video clips I could round up and after realizing that tVs still only give 1980 by 1080 I started to shuffle it to the back of the pack (I also considered the learning curve on top of it).

leaving the ex 3 it was about 9000 dollars+ at least 3 memory ccards and an adapter to use my canon lenses. throw on canadian conversion (dollar had dropped), Taxes and I was looking at a huge investment to, not as much as the red to be certain and duable, still kind of steep, probably over 15000 canadian. I also did my research and read that the overcrank for slo mo was only 720 P not full hd (or at least equal to the 1080P). then there was the rolling shutter and I read all kind of mixed reviews about issues doing fast pans and such. I could not find any difitive awnser to the type of fast action footage i shoot. I did not rule it out however.

I then looked at the xlh1s and A. coming from an xl2 everything about it was familiar. I must say i have preferred sonys auto focus in camcorders to canons, but i tend to shoot manual most of the time with a fu1000 that i could put on the H1.

I researched hdv versus avchd and all that. Even some of the very expensive cams use the same propriety that hdv does. I watched some achvd and must say it did seem more compressed looking than hdv. On the computer and the large screen plasma the hdv was mighty fine and with my vision could not tell much difference from others.

anyway, in the end I opted for the xlh1A. Yes I would like slower motion, but in the same format as the rest of the footage. Yes the red would do that, but I do not know if the desparity between actual costs could warrant that for me.

by the time i got it in the door with taxes, shipping and brokerage fees I was looking at about 9000 dollars canadain at that time.


Until companys step forward to the future and take the simple lead from casio exlim cameras I will be happy with my xlh1, and the price did not choke me either.

If one shoots to cut to film , well then thats a different story. I only shoot to cut to DVD and Blu Ray.

I spent the best part of 6 months sorting this out before making the move. when i do my part it puts out awesome footage!!

........... I use it a lot, because of the great slowmotion features. Swans - taking off, landing or just flying - fantastic when recorded in 60 frames and played back in 25 frames per. second. ....... - if i should say anything negative about the EX3 is that it is very difficult to focus on any moving object on an LCD viewfinder. The Focus assist - on the EX3 and on other LCD monitors - seems only to work when there is no movement to the objects. Probably because anything that moves - dont know what it is called in english - just is not sharp enoug to trig the focus assist. Second the LCD monitors still isent fast enough.

This insight raises and explains the question in my mind about real slowmotion ... so, is there any HD camcorder under US$6000 that can record in 60 frames and playback in 25 frames AND has x20 zoom? That would be my camera choice for telephoto ...

Brendan,

The closest I have come to this is to shoot 60 Interlaced, (In Vegas) Process as Progressive, set to interpolate fields, then go to properties and change the play rate to .5 ( personally usualy go to about.6) and that will give you as good a slo mo as you are going to get under 6000 dollars and have interchangable lenses.

If the ex3 shot 1080 while overcranked or under cranked I would have sprung the extra dollars.

times will change, we will see it in a few years. Look at the casioexlim line!! we need that at full frame size is all.

oh yea, for focus I recent purchased the smallHD 8.5 inch monitor. it is a full 1280x720 resolution, should help in focus to be sure when not doing run and gun.

Thank you, Dale.

Gentlemen, thanks for your advice on this. Mainly on budget, I have decided to go for a XLH1 and I'm going to pick one up this weekend. Very kindly the guy I am buying it from (a wildlife filmmaker) is also going to spare an hour or two to take me through the basics - which is great! Just need to prepare my shopping list for the lenses, there's plenty of good threads on here with lots of information.
There's a spot nearby where up to 5 Hobbies are feeding on Mayflies, and you can get really close to them - I'll be trying it out next week!

Cheers,

Rob

oh, and re: casio exilim, has anyone focused two side by side onto a 35mm adapter image plane for a 960 x 720 @ 210 fps image ??? or is that just a totally stupid idea? ;-)

Rob
Good to hear you’ve getting the cannon you will now be able to reach those parts that other cams can’t,
I use old manual Nikon Lens on my XL. Although I’m thinking of going over to the JVC HM700 and still use my Nikons,

Filming the Hobbies,
Hobbies are like Ferrari in the sky, I have seen them at Dinton Pastures
Chasing the Damson and Dragon-flies.

oh, and re: casio exilim, has anyone focused two side by side onto a 35mm adapter image plane for a 960 x 720 @ 210 fps image ??? or is that just a totally stupid idea? ;-)Rob, I´ve done some exilim f1 high speed testing (just for fun). At 300 fps you got 512x384 18mbs. Hopefully next generation camera will support higher bitrate and res. Watch attached example of a hungry gull!

I just can't let a sweet sharp slo-mo like that pass without breaking my butt trying to find out how you did that, Per, and with what?? Please tell all. I know it's a pain for you Per, but I have so much opportunity to shoot gull & gannet footage that I must find out what I could video with images like this ....

Haha :) Those images remind me of the time I was fishing on the thames as a kid, deadbaiting for Pike. My friend did a long cast , and all of sudden started shouting that he had hooked something really big. I looked at his fishing rod, and noticed something odd - the line was pointing up, not down into the river. Sure enough, a cheeky gull had snatched it mid air and was trying to fly off with it. Then another gull had a go, then a third got involved. They gave up after about a minute!!!

Went to see the Hobbies this evening, and ony got two fleeting glimpses. Still was nice to check the site out and get a good idea what other species are about - plenty of camera targets!!!!

Per, where are you?

I'll phone you if necessary. Please tell me the camcorder, main settings, and the editing programme you used to produce "gull-2.mov"

Brendan, they are consumer compact cams that offer this, but the resolution gets lower the faster the capture.

Casio Exilim High Speed: Digital Cameras (http://www.casiohighspeed.com/cameras.shtml)

Ruth Happel has used this cam for a couple of UWOL challenges, to great effect !!!

http://www.uwolchallenge.com/challenge8/20_UC8_springtakeswing.mov

Yupp, Rob nailed it! That's the camera the EX-F1

To be true, it's somehow amazing to view footage shot with it. But it's somehow quite difficult to operate for high speed recording IMHO!
It require LOTS of light, you have to lock the exposure and focus, before you start shooting. And for wildlife you only got 12x zoom. At the 12x it require even more light, so I mostly do recording at the wider end, which gives me some depth of field to work with too!

Another big problem is that it's only recording in 30p, which mean for us in PAL-land it's not easy to mix with footage shot at 25p/50i. This is the same problem as discussed about the 5D MK II.
Indoor shooting is not possible because of the problem with flickering light due to our power cycle is 50Hz.

I mostly bought it because of curiosity of how this technique works.

Please tell me the camcorder, main settings, and the editing programme you used to produce "gull-2.mov"You already got what camera used in the thread above.
The camera generates a QT-file H.264/AVC recorded to a SDHC flash card, I use a 8GB card which gives me sufficient recording length. Recorded file size of 1 minute (300 fps) are 135MB. The file can be imported and edited instantly in FCP on the MAC. I'm sure NLE's on PC also can handle the QT-file, but I can not recommend any. Maybe someone else can?

EDIT: Forgot to mention that there's more information in this thread about the camera:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photo-hd-video-d-slr-others/135339-casio-ex-f1-720p30-video-impressive.html

Thank you, Per, very much.

Would you say that 5D Mk II would enable you to shoot video and slo-mo it in post like you did with Casio EX- F1 ?

Would you say that 5D Mk II would enable you to shoot video and slo-mo it in post like you did with Casio EX- F1 ?No you can't, because the EX-F1 shoot with a speed of 300 frames per second (even 600 or 1200 frames is possible but in a smaller format), while the 5D MKII only do 30 frames per second.
In fact, you don't slow mo the footage taken by the EX-F1 in post (when you do high speed recording). It's already slowed down in the camera.

Thank you again Per.

Now I'm wondering why a small cam like Casio EX-F1 can manage 300 fps and more expensive video cams cannot do better than 30fps ... or is there a HD cam with x16 < x20 zoom that includes 300fps?

I noticed that a fair number of Casio digicams now have HD 720p and video modes of 480 x 360 - 210 fps ¦ 224 x 168 - 420 fps ¦ 224 x 64 - 1000 fps.

The new Sanyo VPC-FH1 comes _very_ close to what you want.

Video modes are MPEG-4 - 1920 x 1080 - 60 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 1920 x 1080 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 1280 x 720 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 640 x 480 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 448 x 336 - 240 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 192 x 108 - 600 fps

The lens is only a 10x optical zoom with a crop option to go to 16x. It's not digital zoom, but a crop mode, since the sensor is 4000x3000.

I noticed that a fair number of Casio digicams now have HD 720p and video modes of 480 x 360 - 210 fps ¦ 224 x 168 - 420 fps ¦ 224 x 64 - 1000 fps.

The new Sanyo VPC-FH1 comes _very_ close to what you want.

Video modes are MPEG-4 - 1920 x 1080 - 60 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 1920 x 1080 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 1280 x 720 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 640 x 480 - 30 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 448 x 336 - 240 fps ¦ MPEG-4 - 192 x 108 - 600 fps

The lens is only a 10x optical zoom with a crop option to go to 16x. It's not digital zoom, but a crop mode, since the sensor is 4000x3000.

This link ...

Sanyo VPC-FH1 Full HD 1080p Description - eXpansys Ireland (http://www.expansys.ie/d.aspx?i=181579)

... includes the following description ....

"The FH1 packs tons of features which are sure to please the most discerning user; including 600fps slow motion mode, face chasing technology which automatically read and corrects focus and lighting for up to 12 different subjects, and 16x optical zoom for video."

... Are they exaggerating the zoom, Kin, do you think?
Also, do you think FH1 could shoot birdflight handheld, if I was propped up firmly? In other words has it got fast efficient autofocus and focus-points?

I don't know if the AF is fast enough for birds in flight.... my guess is, probably not. The extra DOF from the small sensor will help, but if the bird is flying towards the camera, then it will be a problem.

They actually describe it as "Lens Optical 10.0x inner zoom lens 16x Advanced Zoom f= 5,59-59,5 mm", which is accurate, the 16x is an "Advanced Zoom" feature.

When I mentioned the exlim camera I did not mean to hijack the thread!!

Only ment that we need to see this kind of techno stuff in our better cams!!!


And Brendan, this is the under 6000.00 slo mo camera, just no changable lenses!!

Why can't Canon and Sony add this feature to the H1 or ex3????

Doesn't Twixtor allow you to over and undercrank footage ?

Rob, I hope that you enjoy the XL-H1 that you finally chose and that it suites your kind of filming.

With your budget and requirements I would have suggested the same.

Regarding extra lenses other than the Canon 20x & 6X AF lenses, I'd also advise you to buy a Canon XL - Nikon adapter to use any of the hundreds of superb Nikkor lenses. Be sure to buy the older MF or AF lenses that have aperture rings and not the latest Nikkor AF "G" lenses.

I just got back from traveling and videoing at Machu Picchu and the Galapagos Islands. I shot over 7 hours of tape (no dropouts). I wonder how much that would have cost me in memory sticks? Also, as an alternative, what about the FS-5 for capturing tapeless? Bob

Thanks for all the info on this guys, I havent had much of a chance to play around with the rig just yet, but I have opted for the EF adapter with a look to getting a decent sigma or canon in the 100-400 mm fast-ish range. Also picked up a EF-FD adapter, so I can utilise my FD lenses from the letus for macro work, a bit zany perhaps but the results are astounding.....
Must also add my thanks to Dave Burt who saw my post on here and offered his xlh1 for sale, then spent a good 2 hours of a saturday afternoon showing me the ropes of the cam and big zoom lenses, also Ron Chant who kindly came down my way and met me "in the field" to share some of his practical experience. How cool is that?

Cheers!
Rob