Can you use Vegas 8.1 and DVDArch to make a DVD that will play at Blu-Ray quality in a Blu-Ray player?

Yes you can. You need to use DVD Architect 5 which added BluRay support.

If you don't want a menu, you can actually burn a BluRay disc straight from the Vegas timeline as well.

I wonder if he is talking about on a DVD disc or on a BluRay disc?

Actually... doesn't matter. DVD Architect 5 can burn on either. You just can't put anywhere near as much on a standard DVD.

Yes I have a short clip i want to put on DVD but play in a BR player at full resolution. The clip is about 3 minutes long so I'm guessing it will fit on a standard DVD-R.

Thanks, I'll try to figure out how this works in the software.

-Jonathan

Actually... doesn't matter. DVD Architect 5 can burn on either. You just can't put anywhere near as much on a standard DVD.

Since my projects usually aren't longer than about 15 minutes, I am very interested in doing the same, and I want them complete with menus. Mind helping out this dunce a little, please?

To be clear, I see 4 elements here:
(1) render BR project from Vegas,
(2) author BR project in DVDA5 with menus, etc.,
(3) burn authored BR project to DVD (i.e., not BR) with
(4) DVD burner (i.e., not BR burner).

Big question: are 1-4 correct? If so, then this will save me lots of money because I won't have to buy a BR burner and BR media.

On the other hand, I've read scattered posts about DVDs prepared in this way that suffer/cause spotty performance on playback, mostly depending on the set top BR player used. A PS3 seems the best, but I don't have one (instead, I'm using a Samsung BD-P3600). Answer = try it and see?

Thanks,
Steve

To be clear, I see 4 elements here:
(1) render BR project from Vegas,
(2) author BR project in DVDA5 with menus, etc.,
(3) burn authored BR project to DVD (i.e., not BR) with
(4) DVD burner (i.e., not BR burner).

Big question: are 1-4 correct? If so, then this will save me lots of money because I won't have to buy a BR burner and BR media.



Thanks,
Steve

I'm afraid not.....in my experience you can burn a BD to DVD disk, but, you have to burn it on a BD burner. Red and blue are different wavelengths of light. Hence, the data is, literally, burned on the disk at a different packet spacing. A BD player expects to see the packet spacing produced by the blue laser.

In Vegas, I've burned a BR video onto a standard dvd using a dvd burner. Plays great in my Samsung set top blueray player. No menus though. Will try to do the above with a simple menu in DVD architect this weekend.

wow, that's pretty astonishing to me. Esp. since most burning software won't even allow you to burn bluray content to a DVD format without a bluray burner.

So, no it doesn't work, but yes it does, and no it can't. ;) It's like watching a tennis match. With sincere respect for the more learned and experienced folks posting here, why is there such a divergence of opinion?

It appears that the safest minimum to accomplish what I want is a cash outlay for a BR burner. Since I've already built my 'ultimate' rig, I wanted to see if I really needed to get another component, i.e., the BR burner, to get my short projects into BR format for use on a set top BR player. If I'm right, it looks like I won't necessarily need to purchase BR discs for this purpose -- standard DVDs will work. Just need the BR burner, right?

I searched through the Sony forums to look for useful posts on point but, surprisingly, I found none. Any other opinions or real-world attempts at this?

Thanks,
Steve

My understanding is that you can burn bluray content on a standard DVD using a standard DVD burner and it will play in a bluray player. You just can't burn as much content because the size of a standard DVD is smaller than that of a bluray disc.

My understanding is that you can burn bluray content on a standard DVD using a standard DVD burner and it will play in a bluray player. You just can't burn as much content because the size of a standard DVD is smaller than that of a bluray disc.

OK, thanks. I think I'll stick with my current hardware and media for now and see if it works. I've nothing to lose. I'm just getting set up with a BR player and hi-def TV for presentation, and once I've got everything set up, I'll post back with results on burning BR content.

I just burnt a DVD with BD content with Vegas 8 on a standard red DVD burner. After a successful burn(according to Vegas) the disk will not open in my computer, nor will it play on my Samsung BD-P1500. In fact, my computer shows nothing on the disk. Just made another coaster.

I render in Vegas to a file and play back on the PS3 hard drive to my plasma - 1080 50i looks fantastic.

My understanding is that you can burn bluray content on a standard DVD using a standard DVD burner and it will play in a bluray player. You just can't burn as much content because the size of a standard DVD is smaller than that of a bluray disc.


Exactly. Not an opinon. It works. I've done it many times. Don't know why Bill is having problems. I'm running Vegas 8c. I believe the command is in the tools or options dropdown menu, burn blueray disc.

I'm afraid not.....in my experience you can burn a BD to DVD disk, but, you have to burn it on a BD burner. Red and blue are different wavelengths of light. Hence, the data is, literally, burned on the disk at a different packet spacing. A BD player expects to see the packet spacing produced by the blue laser.

This is just plain wrong in just about EVERY way.

First of all DVD doesn't even support blu laser.

Blu Ray dvd's (better known as avchd disks) are written from a normal dvd burner to a normal dvd... and they're written in the UDF 2.5 (or 2.6) format.

On playback the disks are read from the RED laser. The blue laser has absolutely NOTHING to do with these kinds of disks in any way, shape, or form.

You can create these disks with or without menus and you can write them with avc or mpeg2.

If you're playing back from a computer than you MUST use a special player (software) that can read UDF2.5 disks.... particularly when using XP which can't understand UDF2.5 AT ALL. (Vista is a little better in this respect). A normal dvd burner can WRITE udf2.5 but it can't READ it without some help from software interpretation.

When playing back in a stand alone player you must make sure the machine supports it because these disks are not written into the blu ray spec and therefore is not fully supported across the board.

You need to do some research on these things Bill.

whatever, jack

There's always been a lot of confusion about Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are three elements to be considered: Content, Menu Structure, and the Physical Media it's written to.

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD) or use Blu-ray menu structures. This is a seperate issue from the high-def content placed on a disk. You can place that HD content, which can be either H264, or MPEG2, or even WMV on any DVD or BD disk. BD is used for feature length material simply because it holds 25GB/50GB instead of the 5GB/9GB capacity DVD.

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD)

Correct... but you can also do full menus (including motion menus) on
high def DVD media as well.

As you more or less point out, people are getting the 2 media types mixed up with software formats and such. Pretty much anything you can do with a BD burner and BD media can be done on DVD with a normal burner. The only difference of course being that REAL bd will give you access to higher bitrates, more bandwidths, and more space.

You simply need to do some research on playback machines and methods because "avchd disks" are not fully supported across the board.... and in XP it's not really supported at all.

There's always been a lot of confusion about Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are three elements to be considered: Content, Menu Structure, and the Physical Media it's written to.

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD) or use Blu-ray menu structures. This is a seperate issue from the high-def content placed on a disk. You can place that HD content, which can be either H264, or MPEG2, or even WMV on any DVD or BD disk. BD is used for feature length material simply because it holds 25GB/50GB instead of the 5GB/9GB capacity DVD.

Yes, this is more or less what I was trying to address, however clumsily, by identifying my elements 1-4 above. Some posters here write of success, though it seems, contrary to performing all of my elements 1-4, that they are (a) burning a BR project directly from the Vegas timeline to standard DVD, which then plays in a set top BR player, or (b) rendering directly from the Vegas timeline to a single file for playback on, for instance, a PS3.

What I'm seeing here is that burning a BR project authored in DVD Architect, complete with menus authored in DVD Architect, to a standard DVD may nonetheless require use of a BR burner. The standard DVD disk with its high definition BR content and menus may play on a set top BR player, but it might not play back on a computer unless one has software installed for playback of BR projects. Yes?

Yes, this is more or less what I was trying to address, however clumsily, by identifying my elements 1-4 above. Some posters here write of success, though it seems, contrary to performing all of my elements 1-4, that they are (a) burning a BR project directly from the Vegas timeline to standard DVD, which then plays in a set top BR player, or (b) rendering directly from the Vegas timeline to a single file for playback on, for instance, a PS3.

What I'm seeing here is that burning a BR project authored in DVD Architect, complete with menus authored in DVD Architect, to a standard DVD may nonetheless require use of a BR burner. The standard DVD disk with its high definition BR content and menus may play on a set top BR player, but it might not play back on a computer unless one has software installed for playback of BR projects. Yes?

I did your option (a). Last night also rendered in Vegas, but burned in DVD architect adding a menu. I only have a dvd burner. I use Vegas 8c and DVD architect 5.

If you are going to playback on a computer, why make a blueray disk ? Why not render to an HD file format like MP4, M2t, etc., and play on computer with quicktime, windows media player, etc. ?

I've written HD-DVD material (also a blue laser format) to a DVD-R using my iMac SuperDrive (red laser only) and played it back successfully in an HD-DVD player, for what it's worth.

Please look at the linked page at BD-5 and BD-9: Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc) . There is a specification of Blu-ray streams burned on DVD and DVD-DL media. The BD drives include red laser for downward compatibility, within it. The standard DVD can be burned on either burner and read on either reader. The BD can only be burned/read on Blu-ray burner/reader. In order to play the streams on a computer, one has to have the proper player S/W. Most Blu-ray players are compatible with the BD-5/9 spec, some are not. PS-3 will play BD-5/9 created by VP-8 and DVD Architect 5 (including menus), just fine. Same goes for Final Cut and Roxio Toast 9/10 in the Mac world. The streams are MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 (variety of WMV). I burn and play the BD-5/9 routinely on DVD+/-R's because I don't need to burn anything longer than about 1Hr20Min (rough BD-9 capacity) and because the BD media is still too expensive. It all works including the menu's and streams.

If you are going to playback on a computer, why make a blueray disk ? Why not render to an HD file format like MP4, M2t, etc., and play on computer with quicktime, windows media player, etc. ?

Thanks, Ron. I want to use my Samsung set top player. Simple as that. Otherwise I'd probably use the method you describe.

Please look at the linked page at BD-5 and BD-9: Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc) . There is a specification of Blu-ray streams burned on DVD and DVD-DL media. The BD drives include red laser for downward compatibility, within it. The standard DVD can be burned on either burner and read on either reader. The BD can only be burned/read on Blu-ray burner/reader. In order to play the streams on a computer, one has to have the proper player S/W. Most Blu-ray players are compatible with the BD-5/9 spec, some are not. PS-3 will play BD-5/9 created by VP-8 and DVD Architect 5 (including menus), just fine. Same goes for Final Cut and Roxio Toast 9/10 in the Mac world. The streams are MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 (variety of WMV). I burn and play the BD-5/9 routinely on DVD+/-R's because I don't need to burn anything longer than about 1Hr20Min (rough BD-9 capacity) and because the BD media is still too expensive. It all works including the menu's and streams.

Pavel, thanks for the link. According to that Wikipedia entry and your comments, either cited "variant" of the BR specification can be burned onto regular DVDs, but it's hit and miss with respect to what player will actually play discs burned in such a manner, e.g., PS3, set top player. Once I get up and running, I will just have to try and see with my player.

Steve

The BR discs I've made on DVD with a DVD burner through Vegas and DVD architect play great on my Samsung 1500 blueray player. I haven't tried other players.

You have the right idea. Nothing better than trying it out yourself on your own equipment. I suspect newer BR players will work fine, especially your new Samsung because my older Samsung works fine.

Ron...
the only reason to playback on the computer, that I can see, is to test the burn.

what firmware version do you have on your samsung?

I haven't upgraded the firmware.

I've written HD-DVD material (also a blue laser format) to a DVD-R using my iMac SuperDrive (red laser only) and played it back successfully in an HD-DVD player, for what it's worth.

Yes,
HD DVD is very much the same as Blu Ray on dvd media. The disk gets written in a UDF2.5 format and can be played back in HD DVD players (or computers with the proper software).

In fact it was Toshiba/Microsoft and HD DVD that started all of this 'high def on dvd media' stuff in the first place. Ulead Movie Factory 5, I believe it was that was the first one to introduce high def dvd media and the burning of it onto DVD media.

High def on dvd media BTW, IS an official part of the HD DVD spec (they're actually called 3X DVD), whereas the blu ray equivalent (unofficially dubbed 'avchd disks') is NOT included in the spec.

I've covered this so many times, I don't know where to begin. I'll just confirm what Jack Bellford has been saying.

And NO, you don't need a BR burner for red laser disks. And yes, you can have a lot of the full menu functionality minus BD Java. That includes motion menus, subtitles, multiple audio and video tracks.

But I should point out that Vegas Pro or DVD Architect burns true Blu-ray structures, so when you put that on red laser media, some players will see it as a data disk, like the PS3. Since the PS3 represents countless millions of players, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't make PS3 compatible red laser disks. There is a hack for making Vegas and DVD-Architect Blu-ray compilations playable on the PS3. If you don't do the hack, your Vegas and DVD Architect projects will not play with menu functionality on the PS3 from red laser media.

BD-5 and BD-9 are often confused with home brewed red laser disks because they share the same media type, but they actually are true Blu-ray and...THEY DON'T EXIST. What home enthusiasts have been making are AVCHD disk structures that contain AVC or mpeg2 or mkv streams. The AVCHD folder structure is very similar to the Blu-ray folder structure.

Not all Blu-ray players play AVCHD disks, or BD-R/RE for that matter. The only Blu-ray disk type that will play in all players is the commercial titles on pressings. BD-R/RE burned media may not play on all players, may not carry a Blu-ray logo added by you, although it may carry the Blu-ray logo of the blank disk manufacturer. A wedding photographer can use the wording "Blu-ray Disk" or "Blu-ray compatible" but not the logo, nor can he purchase the right to use the logo for BD-R/RE media.

There is no AVCHD disk on red laser that will play on every player, although most every player that supports AVCHD can be targeted to play a disk. In other words, if you know the player the disk will be played on, you can author a playable disk for that machine.

I've started threads on the subject here, there are threads at AVSforum and doom9. It's far too much to learn overnight. I've been burning Blu-ray playable disks (and HD DVD) on red laser media, with attractive motion menus for years now, both mpeg2 and AVC.

But remember this, Blu-ray is and will remain a mess. It's the best we have but it's still a lousy distribution format for independents.

What would be really helpful, I think is if those who have had success burning BR from Vegas or DVDA 5 to a compliant standard DVD would post a detailed step by step procedure with settings in this thread.


John

here's a link to Tom's original post, with the detailed workflow.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/blu-ray-authoring/139676-authoring-blu-ray-menus-legacy-dvd-yes-you-can.html
Unfortunately, I've never been able to get this to work.

Thank you Bill.

The BR discs I've made on DVD with a DVD burner through Vegas and DVD architect play great on my Samsung 1500 blueray player. I haven't tried other players.

You have the right idea. Nothing better than trying it out yourself on your own equipment. I suspect newer BR players will work fine, especially your new Samsung because my older Samsung works fine.

Ron, did you follow the procedure detailed in Tom Roper's post linked above? If not, what did you do?

Steve

Ron, did you follow the procedure detailed in Tom Roper's post linked above? If not, what did you do?

Steve

The Samsung 1500 can work if the AUXDATA folder is deleted. After the project is authored with DVD Architect, your project has to be burned to DVD at a time when it's still not ready for playback, unless you first burn to an .iso image file, and unpack it into its native folders. Or you can otherwise burn it to DVD-RW and copy the folders from there. But either way, once you have the folders, you have to run AVCHD-Patcher, ( a separate, small, free downloadable utility). AVCHD-Patcher will convert the DVD Architect Blu-ray structure to be recognized as AVCHD by the Samsung player, which is necessary to get it to play. For the Samsung 1500, you also have to delete the AUXDATA folder. Those are the required hacks for that player. The bitrate also needs to be lowered to 17-18 mbps. To avoid loss of quality, it's best to feed DVD Architect your native video stream, and allow DVD Architect to render that using its basic (but excellent) rendering engine for AVC h.264. The AVC h.264 rendering engine in DVD Architect is slow and basic but significantly better and more compatible for Blu-ray than the engine inside Vegas.

Actually, if you used DVD Architect to author a Blu-ray disk to a DVD-RW, then you can run AVCHD-Patcher on the rewritable disk itself, and also delete the AUXDATA folder, and run that same disk straight into the Samsung player. The disk has to be burned as UDF2.5-2.6, so you need Nero or ImgBurn to do that.

I never said any of this was easy, but neither is it hard. You have to make up your mind if it's worth it to learn the tricks/hacks.

Below is a link to a doom9 topic which states which players have been tested, and the specific steps needed to make a compatible disk that plays for those players.

BD standalone results/tests on DVDR of AVCHD, BD, FULLBD, CROPPED, HDAUDIO - Doom9's Forum (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146339)

I never said any of this was easy, but neither is it hard. You have to make up your mind if it's worth it to learn the tricks/hacks.

Well, thanks for the much-detailed post and link, Tom. After reading both, I have the sensation that I'm getting caught in a rip tide.

So, prices of BR burners and media might not be looking so bad after all. I guess that more or less defines the price of the "tricks/hacks" that are required to get by only with standard DVD burners and media, and even then on select BR players.

Steve

Hacks ? It was pretty straight forward for me. Maybe it's the version of Vegas and DVD arch. I'm running. Vegas 8c and DVD arch 5. I think these versions are less than a yr old.

In Vegas, burned blueray directly to dvd. Clicked Tools pulldown menu, burn blueray.

In Vegas, rendered to AVC using Sony AVC blueray template.

In DVD architect, set project properties to blueray, imported the vegas rendered file, added a menu and clicked make disc.

This evening, I'll post a step by step.

I've never been able to access the .iso file created by DVDA with any clone drive. However, today, I tried a copy of ISOBUSTER and it worked as you described. Having modified the files, I am now burning and will report progress.
EDIT: IT WORKED. So to summarize for a P1500:
1-create .iso with Vegas or DVDA
2-open .iso with ISOBUSTER, drag BDMV folder and CERTIFICATE folder out to a directory
3-go into BDMV folder and delete AUXDATA folder
4-Use AVCHD Patcher to patch "index.bdmv"
5-use XVI32 to change the bit in "index.bdmv" and "movieobject.bdmv"
6-copy the two files modified in "5" into BACKUP directory
7-Burn to a standard DVD with IMGBURN, UDF2.5 format

What would be really helpful, I think is if those who have had success burning BR from Vegas or DVDA 5 to a compliant standard DVD would post a detailed step by step procedure with settings in this thread.


John

Vegas pro version 8c, DVD architect version 5a

Burn from Vegas, no menus, step by step in Vegas:

- Project properties set to match raw video files, 1920x1080.
- Edit video
- Tools pulldown menu
- Burn Disc
- Blu-ray Disc
- Render Image and Burn
- Video Template, 1920x1080 60i 16Mbps video stream
- Ok

Vegas renders and burns to dvd.

Works great, doesn't get much easier than this. I'm not doing anything special. This should work for everyone.

What would be really helpful, I think is if those who have had success burning BR from Vegas or DVDA 5 to a compliant standard DVD would post a detailed step by step procedure with settings in this thread.


John

Vegas pro version 8c, DVD architect version 5a

Render in Vegas, author and burn in DVDA with menus, step by step:

In Vegas:

- Project properties set to match raw video files, 1920x1080.
- Edit video
- File pulldown menu
- Render As
- Save as filetype: Sony AVC
- Video Template, 1920x1080 60i 16Mbps video stream
- Save

Vegas renders video file

- Render As
- Save as filetype: Sony Wave64
- Template, default
- Save

Vegas renders audio file


In DVDA

- Project properties, disc format, blu-ray disc, video format avc, resolution 1920x1080
- Ok
- Add background image, add rendered vegas video and audio files, create menu button links to vegas files
- Make Blu-ray Disc
- Burn
- Current project
- Next
- Finish

DVDA authors and burns dvd. A little more complicated than burning from Vegas, but you get menus this way. This should also work for everyone.

Great responses.

Thanks to all.

John

I've never been able to access the .iso file created by DVDA with any clone drive. However, today, I tried a copy of ISOBUSTER and it worked as you described. Having modified the files, I am now burning and will report progress.
EDIT: IT WORKED. So to summarize for a P1500:
1-create .iso with Vegas or DVDA
2-open .iso with ISOBUSTER, drag BDMV folder and CERTIFICATE folder out to a directory
3-go into BDMV folder and delete AUXDATA folder
4-Use AVCHD Patcher to patch "index.bdmv"
5-use XVI32 to change the bit in "index.bdmv" and "movieobject.bdmv"
6-copy the two files modified in "5" into BACKUP directory
7-Burn to a standard DVD with IMGBURN, UDF2.5 format

Very well done. The extra steps you performed, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 make your compilation compatible with literally millions more players including the PS3, Panasonic and Samsung players.

Tom, are my experiences unique ? What I made in Vegas and DVDA seem much quicker and easier than the steps you've listed. But I've only tested in my Samsung 1500 BR player.

I tried to list the steps I did as detailed as possible. They seem pretty straight forward to me and not that hard for someone to try out.

But I've only tested in my Samsung 1500 BR player.


You've spotted the problem!

***********************

Seriously, it won't play in a PS3 without AVCHD Patcher. And it won't play in a Panasonic BD35 without hex editing the index.bdmv and movieobj.bdmv files as Bill did. And it won't play in all the Samsungs either without deleting the AUXDATA folder.

It probably will play in some if not most of the Sony standalone Blu-ray players depending on firmware.

So it really just depends on how robust you want your playback compatibility with the larger population of players.

Go to the doom9 link posted previously to see what works with what players. Your experiences are not unique. Lots of people at first believe they have it, only to find limited playback compatibility.

There's no problem with your Vegas/DVDA workflows.

***********************

Edit:

It actually *will* play in a PS3 without the hacks, but as a data disk, forcing the user to navigate to the folder containing the stream like you were playing from a computer. The hacks allow the disk to autoplay when inserted into the PS3, just like any other Blu-ray disk and with menu functionality from DVDA.

Another advantage is that it can read and output true 24p, and output 1080/24p, whereas the PS3 wraps it inside 60i if interpreted as a data disk.

Ron...

The reason I asked about the version of firmware you are using is that my P1500 used to play BD content DVD's created within Vegas when I first purchased it. With the release of firmware version 2.1, my P1500 quit playing these DVD's. ;o(

I contacted Samsung about the problem, and even sent my player in to them for repair. It was returned without any changes. Samsung disabled the ability of the P1500 to play BD content DVD's with the later firmware versions. This latest procedure now is a workaround to the crippled updates to firmware provided by samsung. If your player is playing all content without problems, DON'T upgrade the firmware.

That's pretty messed up Bill. An upgrade that makes something NOT work.

How did your test go ?

see post #32 in this thread

Tech tip: Authoring and burning Blu-ray discs with Sony DVD Architect Pro 5 (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/news/newsletter.asp?eid=273#article5) is a Sony article that may be of interest to some folks.

I also have a 5 minute video tried to burn a blu-ray project on to a standard dvd-r..it keeps skipping in my sony blu-ray player..bdps350..I will buy a couple of blu-ray dvds tomorrow to see how that works..I guess Im wondering if its just my architect/vegas set up..since switching to a new pc I have had nothing but problems with Vegas..though Vegas 9 seemed to fix a lot of the issues...

I also have a 5 minute video tried to burn a blu-ray project on to a standard dvd-r..it keeps skipping in my sony blu-ray player..bdps350..I will buy a couple of blu-ray dvds tomorrow to see how that works..I guess Im wondering if its just my architect/vegas set up..since switching to a new pc I have had nothing but problems with Vegas..though Vegas 9 seemed to fix a lot of the issues...

I have experience with this model. The BDPS350 will not accept high bitrates from a dvd-r. Use Vegas or DVDA 5.0 to convert to AVC h.264 at 18 mbps or less and you should be fine if you are using the proscribed workflow, (AVCHD Patcher).