Nano Flash and Canon HF S100, connected by HDMI:
Will Nano Flash record before or after compression of the HF S100?

Thanks in advance, Michael

Folks who record from the camera via HDMI claim that they are bypassing the compression stage...

Dear Michael,

The HDMI output of the camera is before the compression stage.

Dear Dan and Robin,

good to hear, thank you.
If you should find a link to someone who made some tests please post it here.

Michael Mann

Dear Michael,

Yes, we need to create some HDMI footage and post it on our website.

Does this also apply to the Canon HV20/30/40 series?

Dear C.S.,

Yes, we use a Canon HV30 in our lab. It works great with our nanoFlash (and Flash XDR) with our nanoConnect (HDMI to HD-SDI converter).

Hey, Dan:

Have you had the chance to see Nanoflash recordings from the Z7's HDMI output?

Hey, Dan:

Have you had the chance to see Nanoflash recordings from the Z7's HDMI output?

Hi John-
No tests on the Z7 yet, but the images from the Canon HV30 look fantastic. If you like the images on your LCD/Plasam screen right out of the Z7 (via HDMI), then you won't be disappointed with the results from the nanoFlash. The images are visually indistinguishable.

Best-

Hi Mike,

Is it possible to measure the bitrate coming into the XDR or Nanoflash from the HV30 HDMI output? If the output is 1.485Gbps,that would let us know for sure if it is uncompressed. If it is something different, that would also be informative.

Thanks,
Alan

Hi Mike,

Is it possible to measure the bitrate coming into the XDR or Nanoflash from the HV30 HDMI output? If the output is 1.485Gbps,that would let us know for sure if it is uncompressed. If it is something different, that would also be informative.

Thanks,
Alan

Hi Alan-
HDMI video is uncompressed 1920x1080 4:2:2 8/10 bit. It's the same video as HD-SDI, just transmitted over 3 differential pairs of wire rather than a single coax.

Best-

Hi Mike,

As I understand the advertising from Canon, the HDMI output is intended to play the recorded HDV miniDV tapes directly from the camera to a HDTV. In this case the HDMI cable is carrying much less than the full information you describe.

However, you have found that the HDMI function is using uncompressed information from the sensor when it is functioning as an "external viewfinder connection". Very nice.

Just musing, but does this mean that other cameras that have the ability to accept an external viewfiner essentially also have access to an uncompressed source? If so, that might mean that your nanoflash or XDR could be used even if the cameras do not have a formal HDSDI connector.

Thanks,
Alan

Click on my signature for my tests of various captures to Cineform.

Bad news though my friend.I have been unable to get the HDMI on this camera (HFS10) to handshake with anything but my Sony bravia LCD.It will not talk to my Blackmagic design card or an HDMI switch or indeed even an HDMI splitter and they are all HDMI version 1.3 compatible.The camera has a flickering menu setting for HDMI when anything else is plugged in.It doesn't register the output or send a signal.Very frustrating amd my work around has been to shoot with the Composite HD port.
If you figure this one out please let me know.Perhaps Mike and company may chip in if they have any idea what it may be that is causing this strange behaviour.It is one of the reasons I am anxious to find out if it works with Nanoflash.If it does I may be interested in buying but if not I may be in trouble as Nanoflash has no composite input as far as I know

Ahhhh! The HDMI standard includes DRM to prevent recording of anything through the HDMI port. This has been sneaking up for quite a few years. The best thing would be for pro manufacturers to ignore the DRM in their HDMI products but there are issues with that no doubt.

I hate DRM as it screws up most products and really does not prevent anything other than legal uses.

The question for Mike Schell is does the NanoFlash recognize the DRM and prevent recording? Can this be excluded from the product if it is there? I was planing on using the Nano in a 3D rig with Canon cameras if this can't be remedied then I am screwed.

Dear Robert,

Cameras with HDMI outputs do not include DRM (HDCP) that would prevent us from recording the output of the camera.

Our devices can not record copy protected material, such as a DVD, but can record the content that you produce.

To be specific, you can record the output of the Canon cameras with the Flash XDR or nanoFlash.

Hi Dan,
Possible to test this with a Canon HFS10 soon?My intensity works with every other camera I have tried except this one.Could you be kind enough to perhaps borrow one and test.This will determine my long standing interest in nanoflash.Much appreciated.

Dear Henry,

I have sent an email to our contact at Canon for information on this subject.

If we find a Vixia HF S10 to borrow, we will test it as soon as possible.

Please let us know if you have any success in using the Vixia HF S10 with various monitors or other devices.

During your testing of the HDMI output, was it with a live image, or during playback?

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the reply.Anything but plugging the camcorder directly into the Sony Bravia LCD fails.It won't talk to the intensity or the HDMI switch or the HDMI splitter I bought.Just directly to the LCD and that's it.
On the camera one has the choice of frame rate.60i,30por 24p.I have it set to 24p.I know that all frame rates are sent in a 60i stream and I have also tried the other settings.
The LCD recognises the input as interlaced.
The Canon fails to connect in both live mode and also playback.
Of interest is that the composite HD menu item and the HDMI control item in the settings flicker when it has failed to do the handshake.So the camera obviously knows something is not on.The HDMI status tab shows this _ _ _ _ _ when it fails to connect and 1920 X 1080 when successfully connected to the LCD.
All help much appreciated.
Henry

Dear Henry,

I just read the instruction manual searching for clues to the problem.

I did not find any.

I will be researching this further.

For your initial testing, I would use 1080i60 mode. Then, if we get this working, swicth to another mode.

To be specific, you can record the output of the Canon cameras with the Flash XDR or nanoFlash.

Do you know whether the Sony Z7 includes DRM in its HDMI output?

Dear John,

As far as I know, DRM (Digital Rights Management), which is really HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection), via the "Broadcast Flag" is almost never applied to the original source as created by a consumer or professional camera.

In other words, DRM should not be a problem when using consumer or professional camera.

In a different light, I can not see any reason why DRM would be invoked on any camera.

For example, many professional HD monitors do not include HDCP. Thus any HDCP protected content could not be viewed on these professional monitors.

Dear Friends,

All Canon camcorders - in camera mode - output uncompressed (right off the Digic DSP, before any compression). Some like the XL H1S use HD-SDI, some like the HF S10, use HDMI.

In all Canon camcorders, there is a menu item or button that removes the overlay.

In the HF S10 it is a button under the LCD panel (body of camcorder) that is labeled <DISP/BATT. INFO>. Keep pressing that and the overlay will disappear.

Based on my research, there is no DRM on the HDMI output. The Canon HF S10 has been used succesfully with the AJA Kona card on a Mac to record video directly to FCP.

We are in the process of obtaining a Canon HF S10 for more tests.

Thanks Dan.So someone has successfully captured from the HDMI port?If that is the case I wonder what the Jeeves is going on with mine.
Do keep us posted.
Henry

Dear Henry,

We expect to have a Canon HF S10 by the end of this week, or early next week.

At that time, we hope to be in a position to test this.

We will report our results.

We expect to have a Canon HF S10 by the end of this week, or early next week.

At that time, we hope to be in a position to test this.



Hey, Dan:

If you can borrow a Sony Z7, it would be good to have confirmation that there are no issues recording from the HDMI output of that camera.

John

Dear John,

Sorry, but, I do not have easy access to a Sony Z7 right now.

We borrowed the Canon HF S10 directly from Canon since there was one user that was having problems with the HDMI output working with only certain monotors.

We will be testing the nanoFlash will a large number of cameras as soon as possible.

I may be able to test the nanoFlash with the Sony Z7 at Cine Gear Expo, in Hollywood, next week.

Dear John,

I may be able to test the nanoFlash with the Sony Z7 at Cine Gear Expo, in Hollywood, next week.

Thanks, Dan.

Thanks for going to trouble to test this guys.Appreciated.
Henry

Dear Henry,

We now have the Canon HF S10 in house.

We were tied up working on the nanoFlash, but we will get to it as soon as possible.

We have ordered some HDMI to HDMI cables earlier this week, but I do not know if we need a new one to test the HF S10. In any case, our cables should be in shortly.

Dear Friends,

We have tested the Canon HF S10 with the nanoFlash.

We found it to work fine.

We did not find any evidence of DRM or HDCP copy protection.

This confirms the information that Canon provided to us.

Thanks Dan,
Great find.Now to figure out what is wrong with mine.
Now I must save up for a nanoflash.