I will be purchasing the EX1 soon (may be forced to purchase early if the internet sales tax goes into effect next week). I am at a point where my four year old Dell computer needs to be replaced, thus, I can either get a new Dell computer and use Sony Vegas; or I could take the plunge and get a Mac with FCP. (For the past 10 years I have used ScreenPlay by Applied Magic, stand alone editing system, which is probably the easiest nle system every devised, but it only edits in SD.) Two questions:
(1)Is there a significant difference between these two systems; i.e., is one much better than the other?
(2) Is FCP much more difficult to learn compared to Vegas?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

I have an EX3 and use both a PC with Vegas and a Mac with FCP (part of FCS2) for HD editing (not all EX3, some HDV stuff). No, one is not better than the other, they BOTH have their strengths and weaknesses.

I'd say the PC/Vegas route is far cheaper and I think easier to learn/lots to love and so should be your default ...but there are things about FCP I really like too now I've got used to it - and it is more universally accepted if you work in conjunction with other video pros as I occassionally do. It's really down to personal preference and your budget - that's the bottom line. I'd say, if in doubt, go the PC/Vegas route and consider FCP in the future but there is no right or wrong answer to your question.

Maybe find some friends or like minded video people who have either to show you the basics of each interface (maybe some Forum members in your area could help you?) and then decide or look at the multitude of video tutorials on-line for either to get a feel. Note that Vegas is moving to version 9 right now (let's hope some of the bugs of 8 got fixed) and FCS3 should be released sometime in the next few months (if you believe the rumours).

I agree with Andy. Buy which ever platform is best supported by your peers. It's nice to be able to lean on someone else for advice. The forums are great, but there's nothing better than having someone sit with you to worth through a problem.

I have grown up on a PC (not literally) and I invested in a screamin' Mac Pro with Final Cut Studio 2. I still haven't gotten used to the Mac interface. When I first got my Mac it took me 30 minutes to figure out how to do something as simple as open the DVD tray. I Googled it and everything. Getting around in a Mac (file management) is much more difficult to me because it's not like Windows. For those who use Macs I guess it's easier, but not for me. I miss "Explore" and pulling up the folder menus. I went Mac to get on FCP because I was starting my video editing from scratch and it seemed the way to go.

If I were you and you've never used a Mac, you might want to stick with what you know and use Vegas or Premiere. But I'm the first person to disregard my advice.

I'm all Mac but in the 80's started with the Atari, went through CP/M, MS DOS and even the Amiga.

Didn't like the Mac interface at all at first. But over a decade (or two) later I'm used to it. Not that it took me that long!

If you're going to do color grading then the biggest reason to use a Mac is FCP's Color. If you bought it as a stand-alone program it would have cost somewhere between $5,000 and $25,000. Now it's included in FCP Studio 2. Extremely powerful and pretty easy to use once you understand the interface. There is a great tutorial available for it.

There's also Soundtrack Pro, Live Type and Motion. All great tools.

Take a look at the features both systems provide, then decide.

I think the real question is wether you wish to use FCP or Vegas. Final Cut Studio is hands down the best overall video production tool out there - IMHO! I use Motion - Soundtrack Pro and now Color almost daily and shuttle between them with simplicity and ease.
Add Compressor and DVD studio Pro and this package easily beats out the competitors.

I have a lag time on renders and moving large HD files, yes - so I just ordered the new 8-Core mac Pro.

Go with FCP ST2. You are future proofing yourself. Market share of professionals is shifting from Avid to FCP.

I'm new to FCP. It's true, FCP has a high end grading tool in color, but it's capabilities, I'll argue, go far beyond the skill level of most people. You can probably say the same thing of Vegas's audio capability. FCP is industry stand but Vegas is a lot cheaper and probably more intuitive.
Platform wise, the great thing about Macs is they don't pick up viruses the way pc's do. I don't find the OS faster or more stable though.

I've used both. Engineered at a video facility that used both.
Mac wins for me for various reasons.

I really think the OS is by and large better than XP (I won't go near Vista).

I think trouble shooting Macs is faster. They BOTH can have issues but I find Mac trouble shooting much more clear cut. That's a big one for me because down time is lost money.

There's certainly great Windows only programs as well as Mac only programs so there's no reason to avoid Windows if you fall in love with a Windows only program.

The answer IMHO is get a Mac and install Windows to run on both Bootcamp (runs as a native PC) and Parallels or VMWare. Places like MacMall (which is also PCMall) can do the install for you for less money than having to buy Windows "off the shelf."

There's VERY GOOD reason why Final Cut Studio has the market share it does and it's Apple Marketing hype. I say this as someone who was an Avid editor from its inception (like 1989 or thereabouts) until about 2001.

Brian, Windows can't even touch Mac OS when it comes to "stability" as commonly used technically. The unix based os can go years (YES YEARS!) without crashing. Programs can crash, the OS almost never. The last kernal panic (OS crash) i had was 3 years ago (all 5 of my Mac combined!) was when my most heavily used system at the time crashed due to a bad mouse. While this is anecdotal this is common experience with Mac OS and the BSDUnix underpinnings.

Do NOT confuse program stability issues with OS stability issues. They are technically NOT the same. Windows has an OS crashes far more often. Also, by design, when a Mac program crashes, the OS won't get taken down with it. In most cases when the Mac OS goes down it's tied to a hardware issue. Even a bad RAM chip couldn't take down my Mac OS.

I've never had a problem with XP crashing. However, I've been tortured by worms, viruses, malicious nasty stuff...on XP I mean.

Perhaps the question to ask, and I don't know the answer, is not Mac versus PC, but which program integrates best with the EX series.

Here are two more fun facts about Macs 1) If you want a notebook, mac makes pricey but nice ones. 2) if you DO need to reinstall an OS, it's easy on a Mac, depending on which flavor of Windows you use, it can be a major headache.

Own both platforms, use both, networked together, XP, Vista and Mac OSs on each machine, multiple OSs, etc.

FCP, Avid and Vegas for editing. In general, what everyone says here is my bet too.

Just pick the one you can get started with, based on price point, availability, and peer service (advise/support group).

The others will eventually come, and probably newer programs will come as one of these go, years down the line it won't matter, one way or the other, as long as the programs you make stand the test of time and popularity, you'll be keeping on keeping on, shooting and cutting away on whatever works best for the job at hand. (I started on upright Movieolas...)

On scripted I'll start the show on Vegas in the field (EX1) and then bring it into Avid (I love the script functions on the Avid) and once locked I'll Quicktime or Automatic Duck it out and into FCP / Color and the rest for finishing, edit audio on Pro Tools and mix on Soundtrack Pro.

The most important thing is to find a pipeline that you're happy with, that works for you. Like choosing a camera, choosing an editing interface is by and large a matter of how it makes you feel under your fingers. Are you fighting the system? Or cutting your show?
Every way you go there will be some kind of a learning curve, so it's more or less of a hassle, live with it, get over it, it won't last forever.

I think most of them, except FCP, have demos you can try, and failing a group of people nearby who can show you their systems, that's the route I would go in.

If you're looking to become a pro editor then Avid and FCP are both a must these days. But if you're ever typed a document on Microsoft Word, or Works, or Word Perfect, you'll see that in they end it's the words themselves that count, not the buttons or command sequences, or hot keys you have to push to manipulate those words.

I don't know that I've added anything to this discussion but I thought I'd throw in my 2c anyway.

Bottom line - get cutting. It doesn't matter on what.

HTH
Cheers
Chris

As a Mac user since the inception in 1984, I have to attest to the usefulness of the Mac, especially in it's current form with the underlying Unix foundation. I've also used PC's from their beginnings as well as other operating systems and still use them today.

I feel that on a Mac you have the best of all worlds: Mac OS X, Windows if you need it using 'virtualization' software such as VMWare Fusion or Parallels (I have and use them both) and Unix. The benefit of virtualization software is that you can run any Windows OS inside of Mac OS, and it's quite seamless, for the times when you have to run Windows software. This kind of software used to run Windows really slow, but now it runs about as fast as it would on a PC with the same speed machine.

Mac hardware has gotten a bad rap over the years as being overpriced for the performance, but this is somewhat of a myth. It's been proven that if you want to get the same type of hardware on the Windows PC platform, you'd wind up with close to the same cost. In addition you have a unified system where the OS is designed to work with the hardware, it's more closed than Windows / PC's but because of that it's more stable.

That being said, if you get a Mac you'll be destined to be the orphaned step-child in the computer world, as Macs total maybe 8% of all personal computers, practically all the rest are Windows PCs. However after a while you'll learn to live with it and appreciate being the 'underdog.'

Apple has really made a great impact on the creative professionals community through with their Pro Apps (such as FCP Studio and Logic). They are a great value for all they bundle and are well supported by creative professional third-party software manufacturers.

If you just needed a computer to read email and surf the web, then I'd say get a Windows PC, but if you want a versatile tool I'd say get a Mac.

In all the years I have posted questions in forums, this is the most intelligent and informative information I have ever received. (I thought I would get some negative responses for posting this type of question.) I have learned so much. Thank you. I'm going to with the Mac and FCP. Again, what a great forum.

Apple has really made a great impact on the creative professionals community through with their Pro Apps (such as FCP Studio and Logic). They are a great value for all they bundle and are well supported by creative professional third-party software manufacturers.

If you just needed a computer to read email and surf the web, then I'd say get a Windows PC, but if you want a versatile tool I'd say get a Mac.


Great Sales pitch Keith,

I use both and quite franlky computers are just glorified calculators, a PC or Mac will produce the same results, it's the creative user who will make the difference.

I wonder if Rembrandt or Degas ever entered into a debate of which brush is better?

I wonder if Rembrandt or Degas ever entered into a debate of which brush is better?

While I haven't heard the above two converse BELIEVE ME good painters ABSOLUTELY CONSIDER THE BRUSH AND THE CANVAS as well. Then there's Jackson Pollock.


Mac hardware has gotten a bad rap over the years as being overpriced for the performance,

I have 5 Macs (and 1 Windows PC). The oldest Mac is 8 years old and it can edit DV just fine running FCP 5. My wife also uses it for basic Photoshop and DTP work. They have a very long useful life. Cost of ownership seems to be lower over time since Apple tends to be "forward thinking" when it comes to connectivity/ports on their computers. There's little reason to go through the "rebuilding or buying a new computer" as frequently as one does on Windows PCs.


if you get a Mac you'll be destined to be the orphaned step-child in the computer world, as Macs total maybe 8% of all personal computers

What percentage of car owners drive Mercedes Benz or Lexus? Are they orphaned step-children? Actually in the creative arts Macs have a much higher market share than 8%. Given the popularity of FCP (and don't forget Final Cut Express) my bet is Macs have high percentage of the NLE market.

But if you want to do live flash streaming using Adobe Flash Media Encoder you'd need Windows and that's why there's good reason to get Windows and one of the virtual programs or run Windows in Bootcamp. Macs really had a big win when they made it a Windows box as well because there still are some things you may want Windows for.

I can second Craigs first response.. I use both Vegas and FCS2 on a Mac Pro and a MBP by way of bootcamp and running a copy of Windows just for Vegas and it works great!!! I also have a two PC's running Vegas and can tell you if you can afford to do so get the Mac and have the best of both worlds!!

I have both FCP and Edius working via Bootcamp on the same Macpro. Edius is way ahead of FCP as far as real time previewing and rendering is concerned. If you fit the Edius NX card you will get full quality playback unlike FCP's feeble dyanamic efforts. I strongly suggest that you download a 30 day trial copy of Edius and see how you get on with it. Having said that,FCS does give you some useful extras, but if you stick with Edius on a PC you can also fit the FireCoder Blu card that will give you better than realtime rendering to MPEG2 and H264 for Bluay.

. Edius is way ahead of FCP as far as real time previewing and rendering is concerned.

I'm trying to learn FCP, seems like Vegas also required less rendering than FCP.

I wonder if Rembrandt or Degas ever entered into a debate of which brush is better?

I bet they did! :-)

Thanks for all of the great advice. The one theme that flows through all of this is to experiment and find the system that will work best for me. And so I will.

I was wondering if and when my provocative comments might be responded to...

I think users from both sides of the fence will exhibit some 'brand loyalty,' it's only natural. We tend to support what we're most familiar with...

Craig, I didn't want to emphasize the 'elite' aspect that Mac users sometimes portray, but honestly, I do think of my Mac and the Mac OS as a luxury car that feels like an extension of me. I think my 'orphan step-child' comment was a bit extreme, and probably has less relevance than it did a few years ago when Mac had less market share and had less virtualization options such as bootcamp, Parallels, or Fusion. In the creative professional world, I've heard that the Mac has about 50% of the market share, this includes video, graphics, and sound production, so in that arena Mac users are certainly not 'orphans.' However in the non-creative standard business office, we still are, but it doesn't seem to matter as much nowadays.

Vincent correctly expresses that all computers are just powerful calculators, which is true, but they are also powerful tools. Some tools may fit in the hand or compliment the creative process better than others. I think that this forum and pretty much all tech forums are what this is all about, to discuss the merits of the tools, such as the XDCAM EX, which is also a 'tool.' We chose the EX because for us it is a better tool, and then we discuss how to get the most out of the tool here and help solve each other's problems.

Brian and Geoff, I do think that FCP and the Mac OS could certainly improve in it's use of hardware acceleration. I think that the next version of FCP should try to address AVCHD and better use of the GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) found on your video card -it's is a much more efficient and powerful way to render. Apple is touting the upcoming Mac OS X, 10.6 "Snow Leopard" to leverage the GPU better, so that software can tap into this power more easily. Perhaps the next version of FCP, which is a bit overdue, will use Mac OS 10.6 Snow Leopard in this way. That being said, for certain applications, such as Geoff suggests, the PC is probably faster.

That all being said, as Jason recommends, if you can afford it, because the Mac can run Windows, it is the best of both worlds.

That all being said, as Jason recommends, if you can afford it, because the Mac can run Windows, it is the best of both worlds.

A good argument, but don't forget you have to buy software to run on either Windows or Mac. Do you want to run Photoshop under Windows or Apple, Final Cut will only run on a Mac. Quite frankly I do not see the point of having a non software compatible dual operating system.

You may have guessed that I am a Windows user, but I also have two Apple Macs. As I said they are just glorified calculators - but we still love them. :-)

Quite frankly I do not see the point of having a non software compatible dual operating system.
With virtualization you can drag and drop between apps. You can edit in FCP (Mac OS) and drag your file to to FME (Windows OS) and stream having both OS open at the same time.

As long as the output files are non proprietary, programs on both OS can be open and files can be moved back and forth.

I recommend Mac because you have access to BOTH OSs and, with bootcamp, if you need to be Windows only for a time (working in a Windows NLE with a complete Windows workflow) you can do that.

Yes a computer is just a calculator and I want that calculator to have no limits doing any equation whether it be Mac OS, Window OS, a flavor of Unix. Let's differentiate a Mac computer from the Mac OS. It's simply a box and can run Windows like any other box using the very same hardware, drivers, etc. When I can get two for the price of one that makes economical and organizational sense.

Being Windows only when, as Keith alludes to, 50% of the "creatives" are using Macs and much of that software is MAC OS ONLY may be too restrictive for some.

BTW when we're talking "boxes" not OS, the Mac is about the 4th largest PC box maker. It's a good box. It's designed specifically to include most of what a typical creative would need.

And as I said before, my quite personal experience is that there's less downtime on a Mac and that is KEY for me as a professional. No fighter viruses, no driver compatibility issues, no registry issues. The fastest race car in the world doesn't get you to the finish line if it hits a wall often enough to cost you trouble shooting time. For me, biggest issue is reliability.

Being Windows only when, as Keith alludes to, 50% of the "creatives" are using Macs and much of that software is MAC OS ONLY may be too restrictive for some.

BTW when we're talking "boxes" not OS, the Mac is about the 4th largest PC box maker. It's a good box. It's designed specifically to include most of what a typical creative would need.



Well put! I must get myself another Mac and I too can become one of the "Creative" users, but hold on I have two of them. The only trouble is that Apple updates its software so often that now I can only run old software on it. Perhaps I will just have to leave my Macs in the loft.

The bottom line is that all computers have their own share of problems. Yes, I love the box too. My fist wife was very beautiful, but below the surface there was just another woman with the same problems as anyone else.

Have a good weekend

The only trouble is that Apple updates its software so often that now I can only run old software on it.

Either a serious misstatement or a very odd perception.

Mac OS receives a major update about every 2 years. Final Cut receives a major update about every 2 years. Maybe that's "so often" for you but I prefer growing feature sets personally. I prefer software that improves to take advantage as hardware improves.
And one doesn't HAVE to update ESPECIALLY with a Mac. As I said, my 8 year old Mac cuts DV just fine using FCP 5 (and OS 10.3.9 which is two versions back).

And what does Mac software have to do with Mac computer which can run Windows. I need BOTH OSs and I do it on ONE box and even drag and drop files between them.

Apparently no one has ever handed you a file from a Mac system. All you have to do is look at the forum for people asking what to do on Windows only boxes with EX .mov files or Apple ProRes files. There actually are Windows solutions for BOTH issues but having ONE box that does both solves all these issues. I'm a business and I need to handle WHATEVER the client gives me and it's likely that 50% of the time it came from a Mac.

These days, it's the Windows only box that may be "isolated."

The Video Guys have an article that might be of interest...

Videoguys' DIY 7: Intel Core i7 8-core (http://www.webvideoguys.com/newwebsite03-09/DIY7.html)

To me it seems like there are more plugins/software available
for a PC... I do like some of the hardware with a MAC but
I also like blu ray and that isn't a MAC thing...

The Video Guys have an article that might be of interest...

Videoguys' DIY 7: Intel Core i7 8-core (http://www.webvideoguys.com/newwebsite03-09/DIY7.html)

To me it seems like there are more plugins/software available
for a PC... I do like some of the hardware with a MAC but
I also like blu ray and that isn't a MAC thing...

Blue-ray data on Mac OS, already there. Blue-ray video via Roxio Toast and Adobe Encore. Blue-ray video playback non existent though. Part of it is the DRM issue which may well be one of the reasons why Vista may have issues.

Plugins? Given the pervasive nature of FCP in the Broadcast arena that market is certainly satisfied. Need Windows specific run Windows on the Mac hardware (it's JUST PC HARDWARE).

DIY great if you can invest the time and trouble shoot the potential hardware and driver conflicts. As a business DOWNTIME is LOST INCOME.

More is NOT BETTER. It's simply MORE.

Windows would win if there's something Windows ONLY that I need. It can and does happen but it's rare. Adobe FME Windows Only, Expressions Encode Windows Only. I can run them on my Mac hardware and no time/money lost with DIY.

In a video/multimedia world which is 50/50. I need both 50s for my business.

One can certainly argue either OS given that the software you want/need might be specific only to one or the other OS. I can't see an argument for using hardware that can't handle both OSs though.

I LIKE Mac OS, I NEED Windows OS. With Mac hardware I can have BOTH . . . even both open at THE SAME TIME.

Craig,

You obviously love your Mac and no doubt it serves you well. I have no objections to Macs either. I just don't like the "we are the creative folk" attitude from many Mac users (no implication implied). I use computers as a means to an end, and quiet frankly I don't care if it is a Mac or PC, as long as it does the job.

"Apparently no one has ever handed you a file from a Mac system."

Apparently not - if you say so.

Shall we just agree to disagree and stay friends, this debate is not going to get either of us anywhere.

Tell me about what you have been shooting with your EX1/3, that is of more interest to me.

All the best

Vincent

I just don't like the "we are the creative folk" attitude from many Mac users

Creative as an industry not an attitude. Creative = CONTENT CREATION.

I get FILES and RESOURCES from any number of places, people, businesses, media facilities. Many times such files and resources are Mac specific such as codecs that only exist in FCP (EX .mov or ApplePro Res and scores of others) or bits of Apple Keynote presentations, etc.

If one is entirely self contained one can go with whatever one likes. If one deals with the Content Creation world, a large number of incoming resources may either need or work best on Mac software. If you get stuff from the outside world Mac hardware can run BOTH OSs so I have access to Mac only AND Windows only software . . . on ONE computer.

Again don't confuse OS with hardware. I need BOTH OSs and only one Computer Hardware Company provides that solution.

Sounds good Craig, I'll get one on Monday.

Have a good weekend

Pretty hard to argue with Craig's logic, a Mac is effectively a twofer.

I was wondering if and when my provocative comments might be responded to...In my experience, "provactive comments" are just a hair away from outright trolling.

Nonetheless, congrats to all participants for maintaining an even strain on this thread.

Mission accomplished,