Agree with you Mathew about the size of the camera.
Actually, a shoulder-mount cam could be a liability.
I've had girls tell me that the conspicuity
of a large cam may be off-puting to some
brides.
And regarding whether the world is ready for
HD footage, our business offers
a widescreen option "for viewing on
HDTV/Home Theater" and there has been
*zero* interest in this on the part
of clients.

It's funny how much my perspective has changed over the last few months since I started my wedding video biz.

Before I was so apprehensive about buying a camcorder. I worried that it needed to be HiDef, widescreen etc.

Quality is important but content reigns supreme. Nobody cares if you have a superior camera if you fail to capture the emotion. Bottom line is that for wedding videographers our primary customer is the bride.

Regarding widescreen. I'd really like a camera that was switchable between native 16:9 and 4:3. A mini version of the dsr570 if you will. However as you and others have said there has been zero interest in widescreen. I'm not sure if it's because of a lack of knowledge or that that just don't want it. I'm surprised more grooms have not asked for it.

And we offer other high-end "exclusive" options
such as Dolby recording, the incorporation
of movie film, steadicam "for those floating Hollywood-style shots". No one's interested. We've invested
in the equipment to be able to offer these
add-ons, but it collects dust.
You'd think with how much Gen Xers sit home
watching movies that they'd want some of this
for their own wedding ....

Dave, I have found in my limited experience that most clients are not into extras. I might sell a photo montage every few weddings but most just want the basics. In fact the more extras I offer the more confused and frustrated they become. The way you off set that is to just include the extras with your base price. Use that steadycam and incorporate the shots in every wedding. It will better sell your product when you do raise your prices. If you want to sell the widescreen option try just showing that particular demo at that price and see if your clients go for it. If you don't see any sales increases off of it or if your clients just "don't like those black bars" you'll know that it isn't worth the trouble.

In terms of quality most brides are fine with a straight camera that's in focus and is not too dark. A clear picture if you will. They much rather pay for stuff like the groom's face light up as she come's down the aisle. Whether it's in widescreen or high def is not so much an issue.

One thing I've been wrestling with is whether or
not to include bride prep in the base package.
As it is now, it's an add on. Some of my
competitors just include it. What has been
the experience? Do most brides want the
prep covered? Do most videographers just include this
with the base package? I just received
a note from a bride with a comment that
she just wants the base package, and then
she goes on to mention what time her prep
will be. Now I have to contact her and
tell her that'll be $200 more.
I've just been concerned that I'm gonna
hear "I don't want the prep so how much
do I get off".

I think the current trend is to charge by the hour. Have a base 3 hour price that is say $900 and then charge so much for every hour after that. All the editing is inclusive with this price. This way if a bride decides she wants house coverage then just tell her it's not a problem but you'll be leaving the reception an hour earlier. She probably won't care since nothing really of note happens after the garter and bouquet. Actually house coverage is one of those things most brides don't want until a week before the wedding, then suddenly they want it...

I have a current problem with a bride, actually it's more her mother, that thinks that I should throw in house coverage for no charge. There was somehow a mis-communication. She thinks I said I would do it for no extra charge. I never said that. It's clearly $75 listed in the brochure. Nevertheless it's a current sticking point. I thought about just relenting but she's being picky about a lot of other things to. If she would just play nice I'd probably do it for her.

Anyway I currently only offer one package. It's pretty simple and most don't have a problem with it. It includes ceremony and reception but stuff like the house and park is extra. What's frustrating is that I price these extras nominally. I mean we're talking about the cost of a plate of food at the reception that will probably go un-eaten...never mind they won't offer it to me.

Ah, include food in your contract. Since you can't do much while they eat, it is reasonable that they feed you too. Or charge them extra for the food you have to bring or buy.

In fairness regarding those other add-ons I mentioned,
our site does not show any examples of them,
nor does the mail-out demo.
Suppose it might help to get some of that up.
Regarding being fed, we have right on our contract
"Meal provided for videographers? YES NO"

You know that's interesting. Back when I worked up in Chicago I would eat at 95% of the weddings. Often if there was no place for me to sit I would be given a meal in the back room at the hall. That is not the case here in St. Louis from my experience. I've only eaten at one wedding and that was because the photog was fed up "with never being fed" and we grabbed something from the banquet table and took off to the bar with it. However it seems and I have discussed this with photogs and dj's that it is uncommen to be fed. I just bring a sack lunch now.

Yeah it helps if people can actually see what a glidecam does. We mustn't forget that we are geeks to the world with our knowledge of cinema. Most brides wouldn't know the difference between a glidecam and a tripod. I have a current mother of the bride (the same one who doesn't want to pay me for the house coverage) who doesn't understand what a video projector is. She honestly can't comprehend what I'm talking about. I've explained it to her several times. She thinks when I say projector it's for slides. She then doesn't understand why it costs $200 to rent one.

Regarding the glidecam: Make sure you have a WA lens on the front of it, makes all the difference.

Well we also have in our contract that if a meal
cannot be provided, we will have to take an
off-site meal break. One of the biggest-named
videographers (i.e. highest-priced and
fully booked this year for some time) in my
market has his name
set up at the table where he will sit. (Incidentally,
he does *not* use a shoulder-mounted camera.)

Haven't received the steadicam yet. Ordered
(and payed for) it
some time back (~1.5 months ago) but there has been an
unexpected production delay; there's no
estimated time of arrival at this point.
How does the WA help with steadicam?
And is it best to keep it at the widest setting?

Nice Dave and Matt routine you two got going here. Now do you two sit in side-by-side cubicles at the Panasonic tech support center? :-)

I guess I am not supposed to complain about Panasonic regardless of what happen.

Gee, I learn my lesson.

I can't speak to this for where everyone else is or what anyone else is doing but I will tell you that in the wedding business in Chicago at least, there are many many many brides that have access to money and aren't afraid to spend it on video. They also want things like bride and groom prep, not so much the photo montages as much as a short love story stlye video for the reception.
Whether I use a stedicam or not, on camera light or not or full size camera or not is up to me and THAT has nothing to do with perception at a wedding. Corporate work, you bet, but not a wedding. I've never been asked to do HD, wide screen and until 3 years ago DVD's. Now DVD is standard in my work and tape has to be asked for.
To see how different people take different approaches to the business as to style, content and equipment look at people like Dave Bonner in Canada-he uses a small cam and a glidecam-thinks out of the box, Loi Bahn in Canada, Shoots with a DSR500 widescreen only and 1 camera, also think out of the box and does a 30 minute edit, Robert Erlich in New Jersey, PD150, monopod, 1 camera shoot and is probably THE innovator of the 30 minute edit for a complete wedding. I read how much he charges, most need to do 4 or more weddings to earn what he does on 1.
The point being it's pointless to discuss whats right because EVERYTHING'S right. If it works for you and fits into your market and business, then it can't be wrong.
I have a very very tight contract that I paid my attorney to write up and trust me when I say I'm covered and yes, I include a meal.
If they don't feed me, I can leave for up to an hour, here in my town it's unusal NOT to be fed.
As to clients not being into extras, I take a mid ground as many are and just as many aren't. It depends on the brides feelings more than budget but also remember that most of my work now comes from referrals and if 1 girl got the coverage the next MUST have it.
Not using a full size camera or a glidecam or offering HD or widescreen hasn't hurt my business but offering well framed, well exposed top quality footage with an edit that although is short tell's the story of their day in the style that they saw when they viewed the work when we fist got together, standing up to a mistake and fixing it, and not letting the client take advantage has HELPED my business for the last 20 years.
But that's just me and my opinion. Take at your own risk, do not pass go do not collect $200, wait one hour after eating before entering the water and remember, only you can prevent forest fires.
Don B

Mathew,
We took your advice to heart about the add-ons.
We have re-aranged our site so that now they
are no longer additional but rather are just
incorporated into the base package.
Hopefully this will allow for us to increase our
base price. For now though it is staying the
same as we have no demo material to show
of these "add-ons" in use. We *would* have
some demos of it, but no one ordered it.
One option we did remove is widescreen.
We contemplated keeping it as additional
but, as luck would have it we'd probably
just get one bride wanting it. This would
not justify the significant dollar investment
in the equipment. I'm in the mid-USA (just
north of you, Don) and,
atleast in my area, brides don't seem interested
in 16:9. Heck, you read their local chit-chat
board called The Knot, and all they are looking
for is a "good cheap" videographer. I've never
once seen one looking for a "good reasonably-
priced" videographer. I've heard Knotties have
a reputation for being "budget brides" and I
think it may be the case, in general.
So, Don, ever gonna get a Flowpod or something
like that? We both know, they're all the rage in
some circles.

Dave, the trick to getting away from the 'knotties' is to get your work up to the $2,000 level. If you're located anywhere near a metropolitan area (Milwaukee in your case?) there should be plenty of upscale clients willing to spend this amount. The trick is getting into this elite circle. Once you do word will get out and very soon you'll have a network of clients.

Don, I'd love to have those clients you speak of. I personally dislike photomontages, its not where my skills are at, they take too long and there are dozens of people in the phonebook who will do them at cost. However I'd love to do more 'love stories' and narrative style work. Unfortunately nobody wants this around here. At least I haven't found them yet.

I can totally relate with your feelings about the
photomontages. This is one add-on that I hope
they *don't* request. But they have.
You know what I've seen a bit of that I'd like to
get into is what's called "bridal elegance".
It's not too far off from love stories. I haven't
had any interest expressed in love stories,
either.
I have had requests to do extensive coverage of
bachlor/bachlorette parties. Or also "guys" and
"girls" pre-wedding "get-togethers" for round of
golf/bowling, et cetera.
I've read on another forum from a guy who has
been in this business for awhile that the real
budget brides, you don't even want them. That they
are more demanding and much less appreciative
of the finished product than the ones who
spend $2000. His theory on that was that some
B&Gs making "professional wages" themselves
can understand why a good videographer
charges what he/she does, but that the budget
ones have unrealistic expectations. Not an exact
quote, but the jist is there. I tend to believe him
based upon his level of experience, which makes
me leery just starting out (more or less), like yourself.
At first, that's what you have to deal with it seems.
Have you managed to break into that upper echelon?

Yep. I'm dealing with one right now. I cut a deal for some out of state bride on Valentine's day. She told me outright that I was too expensive over the phone and for whatever reason I relented and gave her $300 off. She's been more than demanding even going as far as to tell me how to run my business. She also is tardy in getting me some pictures she insisted be included at the beginning of the video. She even altered the contract that I sent her. Everything you described and then some.... also never fall for the "it's a small wedding" spiel. Sure it's small but they then expect you to get on camera interviews from all 60 guests!!!

I'm looking forward to kissing these clients off with good riddance. However I'm not there yet. Maybe in another season or so...

Another catch with cheap brides is that there is no pleasing them. In fact the harder you try it seems the more they want to burn you. I'm tempted to just finish the video with the one I mentioned about and send it certified mail. That way they'll sign for it and it will be a done deal. I wouldn't even call them back to see if they liked it or not because more likely than not she'll have something to complain about and want me to fix. It's risky I know but it just might be my best bet.

Yep, sounds like you're more or less a start-up, like
us. We have one that sent the retainer, but not the
contract.
My opinion on the "trouble bride" is don't even
call her. Cut her loose.
Right now we're dealing with an unexpected
situation.
Get this: She signed for our "ceremony only"
package. She went on to inform us that
her "arrival" is at 10:30. Then her prep
follows till noon. Then she has a photo shoot
which, she noted, she wants extensive video
coverage of. Then her ceremony, which will
last from 3 till 4. Then receiving line. Then
cake cutting.
Basically, this girl is not having a reception, so
far as we can tell. But to her mind, this is all
under "ceremony only".
I caught your drift about "hourly" but I just don't
know if that will work out when you're first
starting out.
Boy, can't wait till we're doing only The Debutantes,
like Don. : - )
Don, does a person have to put up with this as
a start-up?

Geez, sorry guys, I got distracted from this thread for a few days.

Dave, I looked at the flowpod and no, I won't be investing in one. I DO however on occassion use a monopod at ceremonies and at receptions use it frequently. I use a wrist weight from a sporting goods store on the bottom to sorta balance it out but I'm also using the Bogen 682B which has the legs at the bottom so I can set it down. Not the same as a glidecam or anyother stabilser method but it works for me to do what I need it to do.

As for getting the higher end brides, well, 1st let me say that once you've built your reel, then you need to be brutal when looking at it and compare your work to others around the country who are getting the higher end brides and be as objective as possible. Does your work compare in quality to theirs? THEN, if you feel it does raise your prices. In the last 5 years I've raised my price LOTS first a small amount then more then more until today my pricing is commensurate with the higher end videoguys (girls) in my area and the quality of work compares also. NOT THE STYLE, my style is different and although I offer a long form style, I haven't had anyone but it in over 2 years. Remember, the geogaphic area, the demographics,the market,your abilities as a businessperson and your abilities as a cameraperson and editor...determine your pricing. However, IMHO, what people buy is STYLE,QUALITY and CONTENT.

I do offer photo montages and engagement videos but frankly I don't get a lot of call for the montages, as they'll either do them themselves (poorly) or not at all, mostly-not as all. The engagement video,depends on the time of year. Not so much in December in Chicago but the spring-summer months a few.

Well I hope that helps some remember, you can't charge $5000 overnight-well you could but you probably wouldn't work much but IF you want to do the higher end , your work has to reflect that and so do your prices. Higher end buyers won't buy low qaulity, no matter the price, but if you charge high, you'd better give them what they expect-high quality and excellant service. I love the higher end buyer, for me, as demanding as they are, they are great to work with. I do know some that are PITA as well, just like the bride who's looking to get 10 hours of video for nothing.
BTW, I'm now in my 21 year of video with 12 before that as a still photographer. No wonder I'm tired!
I should of listened to my parents when I was a kid and been a dentist! ;-0

Anyway, gotta get ready for a wedding today,
Don B.

I have found in my young business experience that you cannot falter with people. You have to be exacting with everything you say and do. That means you also don't give in to these clients in question. If you charge a certain price then you don't discount. You have to believe that your work is worth the price you charge otherwise you'll be taken advantage of. Luckily my dad is a business man and has a good eye. He looked at my work and the time I invest in it and told me that I should be charging $2,000. Of course I disagreed. I'm anal and fairly observant of what I see out there on the web. I decided a couple of months ago that my work was worth $1500. I had been charging less but not much. If it were not for my dad's advice I'd still be at $1,000. The magic number it seems for getting away from the 'knotties' is $1500. At that point they won't even bother trying to haggle with you. Why? Because $1,000 is usually their limit. Sometimes they go above it but then start wanting free stuff because "so and so will do it for half of what you're charging". Yes all of us hear the same thing from these types.

the trick is educationg your POTENTIAL clients...

once educated, they usually scan the scene...

99.999% they come back :)

1) you KNOW what youre saying and doing and you PROVE it

2) Your Work is demonstrated without apprehension or fear

3) Your Price is RIGHT for what they NEED

4) THEIR character is visible within the Presentation

5) Choice of music and editing style FLOWS seemelessly

6) Presentation of Final Package is FLAWLESS

Weddings rent easy, and theyre a damn rip off...
I make more money on a 3 day Corp job than id make on a high end wedding package here. Here in Oz, wedding video isnt looked upon as being important. that and afew people and so called "Accreditation Services" have ruined the industry for us.

In the ned, if you beleive in what you do, the client WILL recognise it.