You get so much misinfo everywhere but.. I mean which cams record on 16:9 chips?

The DSR-500 is one right.
The PDX 10 another?


Thanks?

I've heard mention here that a couple of the
1CCD-Sonys do. TRV33 and 38, I believe.

You are right about the Sony PDX10. And there is the 570, presumably newer than the 500.

There is also the Panasonic AJ-SDX900P, an awesome (and expensive) cam. Does 16:9 *and* 24P, as well as 30P. It's a DVCPRO camera though.

It seems the Canon Optura 300 is also native 16:9 capable.

I beleive the JVC HD10 has near-native 16:9 in HDV, and that's interesting because you will have square pixels, not anamorphic... and it probably does anamorphic DV with native-like resolution. It's sensor is similar in size and resolution to that found in the PDX10 (although there is only one of them, not three).

The Pana GS100 and Canon Optura 300 and Xi are 3 others.

Thank you guys!

So let's see.. "2" pro cams (Sony 500 series, and the Pana SDX900P"

And 4 consumer? (6 if you count the TRVs..) I don't know the Canon ones or the Pana GS100.. ( not pro ?)

Does the SONYs TRV33 and 38 really have 16:9 chips?
I find it hard to believe..

Thanks.

Yes. The pixels are there.

Yes the Sony TRV38 has a 16:9 chip.

I know because I have one. I also believe the TRV70 & 80 also have this 16:9 chip

Actually they're not 16:9 chips. That is, the CCD aspect ratio is still 4:3. However these are megapixel camcorders. For video they're using a chunk of the CCD out of the middle. There's enough resolution to get a full-res16:9 portion out of the center of the CCD, almost edge to edge. Then for still photos, it uses the entire 4:3 array of the whole chip.

For example this is how the Canon Optura 300 and Optura Xi work. Both of them are two-megapixels camcorders. For still images, the processor uses the entire CCD array at 1632 x 1224 pixels (in the CCD's native aspect ratio of 4:3). Standard video comes from a 1280 x 960 chunk out of the middle of the array, which is then downconverted to 720 x 480 to produce DV. Then for widescreen video, a wider slice of the CCD is used, at 1632 x 918 pixels, or in other words full-resolution 16:9.

I'm using the Canons for example but I'm pretty sure this is how the single-chip Sonys do it too. There's a pretty good explanation of the process at http://www.maxent.org/video/16x9.html.

For the "heavy iron" professional camcorders, the Sony DSR-500 has been mentioned. The Panasonic AJ-D610 is another as well as the JVC GY-D700. All have 2/3rd-inch native 16:9 CCD blocks. Hope this helps,

> There's enough resolution to get a full-res16:9 portion
> out of the center of the CCD, almost edge to edge.

The PDX10 does a similar thing and has 3 CCD's. It's the least expensive 3CCD 16:9 camera you can buy as far as I know and it has very a pleasing image. It's low light performance is not very good and it can suffer from more smear than the PD150/170 when there is too much contrast, so you might prefer this cam if you will be working in controlled environments, not run-and-gun kind of work. If you don't need pro audio the new Canons might be a good bet, less expensive, better low light, less vertical smear and it seems some form of progressive scan too!

How does the single CCD performance of the Xi compare to the 3CCD performance of the PDX10?

I know the generalities of 1 CCD v. 3 CCD, but since the Canon uses the new DigiQ filter, I'm wondering if it narrows the gap.

The Canon Optura Xi and 300 incoporate an RGB (primary) color filter. This is highly superior to the vast majority of other single-chip DV camcorders which use a CMY (complimentary) color filter. Primary color filters are quite rare in single-chip camcorders and they render an image which is very close to the three-chip look. I would put the Optura Xi and 300 in the same boat as the very low priced sub-$1500 Panasonic 3-chippers, and nearly in the ballpark of the Sony $2000 three-chippers. But that's just my opinion; I see a lot of Optura video. Canon's proprietary image processing technology, Digic DV, has a lot to do with it as well but the real "secret weapon" involved here is the rare RGB color filter (rare in the video world, common in the digicam world). Hope this helps,

Pana DV953 does it

Pana DV953 does it

The Panasonic DV953 unfortunately does not widen the angle of view while in 16:9 mode and suffers resolution loss due to vertical zoom.

Does the SONYs TRV33 and 38 really have 16:9 chips?
I find it hard to believe..

Interesting point on the TRV33, it actually widens the angle of view in 16:9 mode at full wide but as you zoom it goes back to the width of its original 4:3 frame (how bizarre).

The list of single CCD cams with quality 16:9 modes is very long now and I see a good many missing from those already mentioned.

Just remember that some cams (like the Optura 300) cannot use image stabilization while in 16:9 mode. Cams with optical image stabilization (PDX10, GS100, Xi) do not have this problem. Some have also noted that Sony's image stabilization (non-ois) still functions in 16:9 mode but this is because Sony employs electronic sensors instead of "borrowing CCD pixels" to compensate for motion.

Below is an illustration of how the PDX10 achieves its remarkable 16:9 mode with no resolution loss.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/PDX10.jpg

How does the single CCD performance of the Xi compare to the 3CCD performance of the PDX10?

I've owned both of these cams and while some may argue that the $2000 PDX10 isn't twice the cam as the $1000 Xi I can easily say that the PDX10 takes home the gold. I rank the PDX10 as the best sub $5k 16:9 cam currently in production.

Here are some frame grabs from my past PDX10. They are still anamrophically squeezed at 720x480 but just unsquish them to 853x480 and you'll be good to go (yes I'm lazy).

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=441334

Here is a 16:9 frame grab from my current GS100. The unique look is due to its "Pro Cinema" mode

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/ProCinema1.jpg

What does the Pro Cinema mode do?

Tommy, the DV953 does do it.

The 953 is the same as MX500, and the MX300 is a GS70. Look at this expanation
http://www.fortvir.net/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album05&id=mx500_07&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

The 953 doesn't do it as good as the GS100. :-))the MX300 is a GS70I have a MX300. I assure you it's not the GS70.

Thanks for all your replies.. I just tried to sort out which cams actually shot in 16:9 and which had a "wide mode" and just cropped the image.

Now I know alot more!

Tommy, you rank the PDX10 over PD150 and Pana DVX100?

Personally I don't know, Ihe never seen it in the "flesh"..

What does the Pro Cinema mode do?

Pro Cinema on the GS100 combines 16:9 mode, frame mode, and its cine-like gamma setting (similar to DVX100 but non adjustable).

Tommy, the DV953 does do it.

The 953 is the same as MX500, and the MX300 is a GS70. Look at this expanation

Unfortunately, only the PAL MX500 has no vertical zooming but remember that the MX5000 and DV953 are both NTSC and the Japanese website points out that there is a 1.3x vertical zoom in the MX5000/DV953 16:9 mode. Also important is that the DV953 is not widening the angle of view like the PDX10 or GS100. I originally thought the DV953 had the same 16:9 mode as the MX500 and I actually was the one that extracted the photo you linked to from a Powerpoint presenation on Frank's website. It wasn't until the GS100 debuted and they directly compared it to the NTSC MX5000/DV953 that I saw the difference.

Here is the link to the Panasonic website in Japan and the MX5000 is the first cam and the GS100 below it.

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/gs100k/ki_wide.html

As Frank mentioned the MX300 is the PAL equivalent of the Japanese MX3000 and was never released in North America.

Tommy, you rank the PDX10 over PD150 and Pana DVX100?

Alfred, sorry about that. The line was originally supposed to reflect that I prefer the PDX10 as the best widescreen cam under $5k. I went back and added it to my original post. :)

> Pro Cinema on the GS100 combines 16:9 mode, frame mode,
> and its cine-like gamma setting (similar to DVX100
> but non adjustable).

Amazing.

It wasn't until the GS100 debuted and they directly compared it to the NTSC MX5000/DV953 that I saw the difference. Tommy, are you sure? According to one of my Japanese colleagues, that web page doesn't say anything about the MX5000. It says words like "old technology." It could just as easily be referring to other camcorders. Also, I have a PPT slide that is titled MX5000 that shows the same extraction method as the one for the MX500 (maybe it's a forgery?). In addition, postings on slashcam.com state that the DV953's widescreen mode is high quality. Finally, measurements I have made in widescreen mode show no resolution loss. At this point, I'm really confused.

"Amazing" is right Ignacio.
Tommy, that GS100 frame grab is something else!
So the GS100 has a 16:9 chip? The "frame mode" is
progressive scan? Or is it something like Canon's
frame mode, which as I understand, is not true
progressive.
Sorry for these basic questions. I haven't really
been following the GS seeing as it's not distributed
in the States. Is it European only? What's the best
way for someone in the States to get one?

It's sold in Japan only, as Panasonic's flagship consumer cam. For buying info, contact Allan. See the first thread on the MX Forum.

Tommy, are you sure?

I'll have my Japanese friends at work re-read the page to me tomorrow but also check out the preceding page (link below) that references the MX5000 and the 28% difference between it and the GS100.

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/gs100k/kinou.html

A MX5000 Powerpoint? Is it in Japanese? I have only seen the MX500 version but I'm not sure where it originated.

The DV953's wide mode is definitely high quality (no denying that). Here are my 16:9 frame grabs from the DV953.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/DV953wide1.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/DV953wide2.jpg

Dave, the GS100 is native 4:3 but like the PDX10 it uses the extra pixels on the CCD to creat a high quality 16:9 mode.

Illustration of how the PDX10 achieves its 16:9 mode.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/PDX10.jpg

The frame mode on the GS100 is similar to Canon in that it gives a progressive scan look but at the cost of some resolution. Panasonic frame mode can also be found on the AG-EZ50U and PV-DV953.

May be some people don't know about Sony 16:9 trick in PC330, TRV60/80.
Resolution in 16:9 decreases while zooming. It's hapends because amount of pixels is decreased during zoom is increased. It is illustrated here:
http://www.videomax.ru/tests/capaso/data/PC330notfairplay.gif

I suppose Sony DCR-HC85E and others HC* has the same trick.

Mikhail, its odd the way some Sony cams reduce the field of view in 16:9 mode. The TRV33 actually documents this "feature" in the manual.

Are you looking at only low end DV25 cameras?

There are lots of digital cameras that operate in true 16:9 in many formats...

Que?

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : Pro Cinema on the GS100 combines 16:9 mode, frame mode, and its cine-like gamma setting (similar to DVX100 but non adjustable). -->>>

Does this apply to the PV-GS200 as well?

Does this apply to the PV-GS200 as well?

Unfortunately the GS200 lacks a Pro Cinema mode as it does not support frame mode, HQ 16:9, or cine-like gamma. Other differences between the GS200 and GS100 include optical image stabilization, manual audio, zebras, and color bars.