Hi folks, I've been a PC user for long time, and use Vegas 4.0 which I really like, but I frequently see reviewers start with the preface - "Of course, Final Cut Pro is the standard for NLE.

So....pardon this question, but what is the difference between Vegas 4.0 and Final Cut Pro?

I don't really want to learn about MAC's but if it is head and shoulders above Vegas, then I would think about it.

I really appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Milt Lee
Lee Productions

They are both very capable NLE's. Naturally the biggest difference is FCP runs on Macs and Vegas runs on PCs. Functionally, you will find that they are both very similar. Operationally, they accomplish the same tasks in different ways. If you already know Vegas, you'll have to "unlearn" some things and figure out how FCP does it.

If you're looking for hardware support, FCP has more. If you're looking for format agnostic, Vegas has more. If you want the best audio, Vegas wins. If you want EDLs, FCP will win. It's really just a matter of edit flow, what hardware you are using, and which you like best.

EDl's? I don't think I know what that means. In SAWSTUDIO, that would mean Edit List - is it the same in the video world?

I do like Vegas, and I especially like the audio capablities. At some point, I expect to be doing doc's that I want to show on Public Television, so I want to have something that I can output in a broadcast standard. Is that as issue or is it really just a matter of the right hardware to output to?


Thanks,
Milt Lee

EDL = edit decision list.

FCP can work with more formats than Vegas, like cutting film, editing SD/uncompressed, and HD. Not sure how you would capture uncompressed or HD on a Vegas system.

DV, which Vegas can handle, is broadcast standard if shot right and if the content is good. Some stations may require a different format but you can do a dub and it should still be broadcast quality.

Actually, other than the cinema world, Vegas manages more formats. It just doesn't have the hardware support for the formats, but it edits far more formats than FCP, including 1080i/p. Granted, without the hardware, you are only seeing 4-8 fps, but there are ways of editing for uncompressed HD and having reference files that work just fine.
FCP is a great tool. I use it enough to be able to demonstrate it fairly effectively, but Vegas is my main tool. If I was doing a news show and needed it NOW and rendering wasn't an option, then I'd probably use Avid with hardware or FCP with hardware. But...I always have time to render since the only deadlines I get under are the ones I specify for clients. With several machines and a few RAIDS, it's no big thing for me to set Vegas to rendering a project while I work on a different machine, or even the same machine with Vegas running in the background.
FCP doesn't have the streaming, audio, or depth of compositing tools that Vegas has, partially because Apple doesn't want to kill sales of some of their other tools. Compressor is a good tool though....so can't discount it.
FCP 4 full edition is actually a very nice value. but it's Mac only, non-intuitive, and workflow-stifled, IMO.

Hmm... this thing about formats support, it seems to me Final Cut Pro can import and export any QuickTime supported codec, and that's really a very wide range of options.

And even though the program's audio tools are somewhat basic (I use Digital Performer for serious audio), it comes with SoundTrack which seems a very capable tool for multitrack audio and setting up loops, and it also includes Peak LE which is a very good audio editor. Now of course it is not as good as having more audio capability in the program itself. But they seem to work together quite painlessly.

Having said that, I must add that even though I use Digital Performer for music production and love it's realtime effects processing, I have never actually needed to do something for a video project which could not be done in FCP. It supports OS X's standard audio plug-in architecture and the included plug-in's are quite good. Editing the audio level in the timeline is very intuitive, very similar to Premiere. All in all I am happy with FCP's audio capabilities.

Actually, other than the cinema world, Vegas manages more formats. It just doesn't have the hardware support for the formats, but it edits far more formats than FCP, including 1080i/p. Granted, without the hardware, you are only seeing 4-8 fps, but there are ways of editing for uncompressed HD and having reference files that work just fine.

By FCP handling more formats I mean you can capture and edit the footage. As far as I know, Vegas can't capture uncompressed or HD. Can you?

Uncompressed: yes. QuickTime has an uncompressed codec and also most capture hardware includes codecs that work in tandem with their hardware from within any QuickTime savvy application, whether they are lossless or near-lossless.

HD: yes, basically same answer. There is even a new codec called pixlet which let's you work near-lossless HD without additional hardware but you need a killer fast computer for this to be practical, just like on the PC.

One thing that has not been fully addressed is direct MPEG2 support through QuickTime, so HDV-acquired video or delivery needs additional software.

I find FCP's greatest strength is LiveType.

LiveType has to be the best Titler that I have used to date... other than that Vegas is a winner.

Regards,

Chris

Vegas also supports any Quicktime/win codec available in addition to DirectShow and proprietary.

I am a regular Final Cut Pro user and I launched Vegas Video 4 on a friend's PC the other day. It made zero sense. No separate viewer and canvas windows? Why is the timeline so "thick", short and small? I imported a Quicktime DV file, messed with it a bit and figured some of it out. I really didn't find anything that made it better than Final Cut Pro though. No 3 way color corrector would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me. If Vegas has it, I didn't find it. Also, what is this I hear about Vegas having better audio capabilities? Please explain. Once I was finished with my little screwing-around session, I exported a short, 30 second 720x480 DV Quicktime, full quality 48Khz stereo audio. Render...... render..... render.... and I had no effects! It took it nearly 10 minutes just to export the file. This was with a 1.5 Ghz AMD with 512MB of RAM and a 7200 RPM hard drive with plenty of space.

I'd like to know more about Vegas, just so I can be more versatile myself, though. I had to be doing something wrong, right?

If you're very familiar with FCP, Vegas WOULD be different (that's one of the things we LIKE about Vegas). Rendering from/to Quicktime is definitely slower than using native DV-AVI files because it has to use the quick-time engine installed on that computer.

Yes, Vegas has a 3 way color corrector. You just need to click on the Video FX tab on the lower left side of the screen, click on "Color Corrector" from the list, and then drag any of the presets to the video clip. Alternately, you can click on the FX button on the right-hand edge of the clip and choose "Color Corrector" from the list that appears. Finally, you can right-click a video clip and choose "Media FX" from which you can choose the Color Corrector tool.


p.s. It's called Vegas 4. Previous versions were called Vegas Video because there was a separate Vegas Audio version available.

Hmmm...quicktime?

So if I wanted to make my short videos into quicktime versions, in order to play them on the web (for all those without WMP) I could do this right in Vegas - no need for the Quicktime Pro from Apple?

thanks,
Milt Lee

Yes. Vegas can handle quicktime. Just download the free version from Apple's site, choose a "custom" install, and pick EVERYTHING. Vegas requires the authoring tools to be installed in order to used quicktime files.

Remember that Vegas started as an multi-track audio program in version 1. It's roots are audio. It is still a full blown multi-track audio application with full bus mastering and directX audio effects. It can also record multi-track audio directly to the timeline.

I haven't explored all the capabilities yet, but from what I can see so far is that you can add about 20 different plugins to any track, or audio event on a track. You can have multiple tracks, you can mix each one seperately, and you can even connect the tracks to an external editor. I use SAWSTUDIO, which unfortunately doesn't seem to connect to Vegas, but I can do pretty much everything that I want right in Vegas, so that's not an issue for me.

I've never seen anything like that in a video program before. I've used pinnacle, media studio pro 7.0 and while MSP had multiple tracks, it was really tough to do much with it.

Milt Lee

Sounds good (no pun intended). FCP4 can do most of what you mention (of course DirectX is not available under the Mac OS, here the plug-in standard is called Audio Units). However FCP cannot record more than two tracks simultaneously as far as I know (it might be able to capture 4 tracks from DV). So this could be a huge difference. In a pro recording envirnment, you have to use another program. But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not.

Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in?

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not.

Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in? -->>>


FCP probably contains all of the same basic tools for general audio touch-up. However, I would contend that Vegas does the job better coming from an audio background. Here's some more information:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/products/showproduct.asp?PID=808&FeatureID=6893&FeatureTL=6877



Audio
Audio recording, editing, and mixing
24-bit/96 kHz audio support
5.1 surround mixing tools
DirectX® plug-in effects automation
Includes over 30 DirectX® audio effects
ASIO driver support
Record Input Monitoring
Real-time record meters
32 assignable effects and 26 Master and Aux outputs
Solo or mute tracks
Master, auxiliary, and effects bus tracks



Vegas does not come standard with a "denoiser" unless you can apply some equilization techniques. However, Noise Reduction is available as an add-on product.

FCP also has no noise reduction plug included either. You can also add from many vendors though. I asked because I think that would make a big difference. Yes, bussing and realtime audio capabilities are better in Vegas, but I have never felt the need for the in FCP. I wouldn't switch for that.

What seems most appealing to me is that Vegas seems to be able to render one project while you are working in another. That seems really interesting. It's not possible to do that in FCP, and I don't think it's possible to run two instances of the program at the same time. Never tried though...

Must be really great if you have enough hardware.

When I run 2 instances of Vegas it crashes spontaneously when I do a few undo's. That's about the only time it crashes.

Running 2 instances can definitely be helpful in many situations. I believe it's the only major NLE that will allow that. I've never had a problem when running multiple instances.

5.1 surround mixing tools
What tools are these? I do 5.1 in FCP all the time and get fantastic results. I am just wondering what specific tools for 5.1 Vegas might have.

Vegas has a pan mixer in which a dot represents where you are in the sound field...you can simply drag the dot, or your location in relation to the 5.1 mix, around in real-time, and record all the changes.

Ted, here's something else to try:

Select an area of the timeline and start playback. Now open up an effects dialog and start adjusting the controls while the timeline continues to loop that area showing the adjustments live. Audio adjustments can also be done live so you can immediately hear how what you are adjusting is affecting the clip.

Well having advocated FCP so much, I would like to mention things I *don't* like about it so the Vegas gang can tell me if they have better luck.

(1) All effects (audio and video) can be automated. But I *hate* the timeline that appears in the clip window where you can access and manipulate effect parameters over time. It's an inteligent way of representing what's going on, but it's very difficult to work with because the segment of time you see is so small and the vertical axis on which you can move the parameters is also quite small and difficult to manipulate because of that. Perhaps there is a way to make it larger but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out.

(2) For me the the log & capture window is not easy to work with. I was able to easily set up batch captures in Premiere and it's been a headache for me to try to do the same thing in FCP so I usually end up capturing whole segments and then dividing them with the Find DV Start/Stop tool. It's good but consumes more disk space since I capture stuff I am not going to use.

(3) For some reason Print to Video seems to requiere more resources than I have, which is strange because if I output a DV QuickTime file and feed that directly over Firewire with another program (Simple VideoOut) my little computer does the job fine... so there is some redource management which is not optimal.

Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well. That's because it's all now a single linear file.

> Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new
> FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well.
> That's because it's all now a single linear file.

Thanks, I have tried that. Results are the same. Besides, video data is fragmented on the hard disk anyway, whether it's contained in a single file or across several. QuickTime is supposed to take good care of that.

I just checked and you are using a 400 Mhz laptop? Laptops are not known for blazing hard drive speed. And 400Mhz is near the bottom of FCP 4's recommended specs. I don't think Final Cut is to blame here. FCP has a ton more overhead than a simple video out program. Anyway it seems like you've found a workaround.

A Titanium PowerBook is marginal, especially the 400 MHz one. Try maxing out the ram, faster and larger HD. Don't let your HD get over 70% full.

Yes. My PB is like the slowest hardware on which FCP4 will run unhacked. Actually *was*. It's built-in video died a few days ago so it is bound to become a web server or something like that :'(

(1) All effects (audio and video) can be automated. But I *hate* the timeline that appears in the clip window where you can access and manipulate effect parameters over time. It's an inteligent way of representing what's going on, but it's very difficult to work with because the segment of time you see is so small and the vertical axis on which you can move the parameters is also quite small and difficult to manipulate because of that. Perhaps there is a way to make it larger but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out.

For the general clip window, there is a slide bar at the bottom of the editing window that you can grab with your mouse and drag left, to space the clip out...I think you can look at every frame in the video if you so desire.

You can also go to the edge of the track ( on the left hand side, where they are numbered 1,2, 3 etc...) go to the bottom edge and grab the line between the clips with your mouse....drag it down and it will increase the size of that track so you can see what it is your editing

I think that is what you were asking about, or stating rather.