For a month now, I have been reading every post, review and article I can find about NLE packages... These, from what I can determine, are the VERY basic pros & cons of each. If you could chime in and let me know if what I have determined is true (from your 'hands-on' experience), that would be great.

Vegas + DVD
*PROS: Stable, Great audio editing w/5.1, Quick edits, Reasonably priced, User friendly & wildly popular on this site...
*CONS: Long render time, functionality tops out at a Pentium 2.8C, not as many plug-ins (although I'm not totally sure what those are anyway) as others, on-lining (I think that means taking it to a transfer house, etc.) not as easy as Avid.

Adobe Video Collection Pro
*PROS: Complete package of tools, somewhat reasonably priced, many plug-ins, User friendly (but not as much so as Vegas), Good audio editing w/5.1, good real-time effects and faster rendering, The faster the computer-the faster the application (doesn't top out like Vegas)...
*CONS: Buggy, Bogs down when asked alot, not very popular on this site, on-lining not as ease as Avid...

Avid Xpress Pro
*PROS: Top notch editing tools, Industry standard, On-lining easy with Avid, Pretty stable if configured to their specs, many plug-ins, real-time effects & faster rendering, doesn't top out at a certain speed computer...
*CONS: No 5.1 editing, not as user-friendly as the two above, larger learning curve, priced pretty high, wants to be a NLE computer only & doesn't handle 'extra' stuff AND Windows updates very well.

Final Cut Pro
I know very little about this one because it appears to be only for the Mac. My question would be (since I don't have a computer yet) is the application SO GOOD that I should scrap my IBM ideas and go with a Mac?

ALL OTHERS
I have really only studied the above mentioned NLE's, so I couldn't tell you pros and cons on any of the others...

IN CONCLUSION, as I'm sure you are already painstakingly aware, I re-define "Newbie" and therefore, could be so far out in left field I'm in the bleachers... However, you gotta start somewhere, huh? All of you top notch brainiacs were newbies once yourselves and I think it's pretty darn cool that you would be willing to help those of us along with your knowledge. For that, I thank you.

Jeff Baergen

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Baergen : Vegas + DVD
functionality tops out at a Pentium 2.8C

Adobe Video Collection Pro
The faster the computer-the faster the application (doesn't top out like Vegas)... -->>>

I don't understand these comments. Vegas will use whatever processor speed you have when rendering. If you have a Pentium 3.2, it should render faster than if you have a Pentium 2.8. I don't know where you're getting the "tops out" information.

Render time has never been a problem for me. I spend the time necessary in editing, start the render process, and go to bed. It's rendered by the time I wake up whether it took 1 hour or 4 hours.

Some editors don't sleep.

You can get a tour of Final Cut Pro here (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/). Check out the "Features at a Glance" section on that page, it gives you examples of just a few of FCP 's features and benefits. It is the most complete suite of video editing tools available. FCP is used in every facet of video production from weddings and events to broadcast to feature film and television. Apple has a complete suite of tools that all play pretty well together. FCP and Cinema Tools (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/cinematools.html) for video and film, Logic Pro (http://www.apple.com/software/pro/logic/) for audio production, Shake (http://www.apple.com/shake/) for digital compositing and DVD Studio Pro (http://www.apple.com/dvdstudiopro/) for DVD authoring.

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : Some editors don't sleep. -->>>


You ought to try it some time. It's nice and refreshing :-)


Seriously, Jeff, Download the demos or find someone who has them and can demonstrate them for you. Vegas, Premiere, Avid, and FCP will all get you where you want to go. The question is: Which one best matches YOUR workflow? For me, the answer was Vegas.

FCP and Premiere Pro IMO have a very similar interface. It's like Premiere Pro is a FCP clone. They have the same designer so maybe that's why. Avid, FCP, and PP all seem to have better media management than Vegas, with Avid being the best (this is what other people tell me).

Audio-wise, Vegas is the best hands-down.

As far as hard goes:
Vegas has no hardware acceleration, but the faster your processor the better (it does not top out at 2.8C). Dual processors don't help much but improve DVD encoding speed (close to 2X).

Avid- you can get hardware acceleration in the form of Mojo ($2kish). You need to figure out some stuff with the PCI bus if you plan to get Mojo.

Premiere- many reasonably priced acceleration boards out there, but some of them are really picky about your motherboard.

For FCP you can get hardware acceleration from the Cinewave, which is a "few" thousand dollars. But with a dual 1.8ghz machine it's kinda fast. It's really fast with the optimized Apple filters (7 streams + 1FX on each I think), but not so fast with other non-optimized filters.

There's also edition, which gives 1 stream of RT for each 600mhz of CPU speed and even more from video card-acceleration effects (2d stuff). Plus, it has background rendering which makes it even faster. Edition should be the fastest of the bunch.

Most of these programs have reasonable demos.

Edward et al,

In a reply to one of my earlier posts, Glenn Chan was graciously answering some questions about NLE's and wrote,

"A pentium 2.8C is about where Vegas performance will top out. You can throw more money at it and it won't get faster by much. " Here is the link to the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21922

However, I'm pretty sure now that I misunderstood what he was meaning. I think he was speaking about render times. Is that correct, Glenn?

Glenn, you stated in this thread, "Premiere- many reasonably priced acceleration boards out there, but some of them are really picky about your motherboard." Are you speaking of Matrox RTX100 and others like Canopos?

Thanks guys for your help.

Jeff

Just to comment on Avid. It too is processor speed related, the faster the better... so it's upgradeable even without MoJo. And it takes advantage of dual processors. Good deals can be had for packaged price breaks on Avid and Avid with Mojo. Don't overlook all the third party software that comes with the avid package.

Vegas will use the full power of the computer to wherever a bottle-neck occurs. Usually that bottle-neck is NOT the processor (once you get to those speeds). It could be the hard drive, the bus speeds, memory speeds, etc... However, depending on the effects added, it could very well be the processor.

Rest assured Vegas will use the full processing speed. While many people have stated that Vegas doesn't use multiprocessors, it IS multi-processor aware and does use them when rendering. The video stream uses one processor and the audio stream uses another.

Another advantage of Vegas (especially on multi-processor systems), start rendering, open another copy of vegas, and keep right on editing while the first instance is still rendering.

Not to fuel the fight about which is better, but for ME in my work, I tried Avid Express,Premiere,Edition and Vegas when I decided to finally join the 20th century. Don't want to rush into anything, right!?!?
Anyway after playing and fiddling and trying and spending some cash I made an informed decision to use Vegas. I don't regret it at all and haven't looked back. Do I wish for some improvements? Of course, can I earn a living while using Vegas? Are you kidding, I used a low level Pinnacle product for 3 years before Vegas and before that I did LINEAL editing. YUK! I still made money.

What I'm trying to say is get the demo's, find a friend, a user group, whatever to try the various programs out and see which works for YOU and the work you're doing.

Now if I could only teach my dog to edit!
Don

By "top out" I meant that you really start to see diminishing returns for your money past a 2.8ghz Pentium "C". Well because technology moves fast the more expensive processors don't cost as much and are a better buy now. But you really see diminishing returns with them- pay quite a bit extra for around 6% faster speed each speed grade. 6/12% isn't much.

You still aren't going to see much of a boost from a single processor system to a dual processor system for rendering one project (because the second processor will usually be idle). Dual processors systems would come in handy during MPEG2 encoding, running 2 instances of Vegas (as Edward pointed out), and may come in handy when VV5 comes out (network render onto your own computer).

I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't currently throw more money at Vegas to make it significantly faster, unlike other systems where you can get hardware acceleration. When VV5 comes out you should be able to setup a render farm which'll make renders go faster.

Depending on your needs, Vegas is probably fast enough for you. It has real-time previews like other NLEs so you don't have to waste time rendering, and it renders reasonably fast.

2- Maybe we should have some sort of sticky where there's a list of some general pro's and con's to each NLE, so people looking at buying one will have something to start off their research with and we don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over.

Can anyone tell me if Avid Xpress or any of the Avid family products is for PC or Mac? I can't find it anywhere on their site... I guess I am just blind. :-(

David,

Avid express is PC or Mac compliant.

Thanks,

ed

David,

In fact Avid comes with both Mac and PC version in the one box so you can install it one either machine or both if you want to. However, you can't use them both at the same time as you need a USB "key" to activate the software. Without the key in place the application simply won't load. If you are interested in Avid then I suggest you download Avid's FreeDV (http://www.avid.com/freedv/) and try it out.

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Chan : 2- Maybe we should have some sort of sticky where there's a list of some general pro's and con's to each NLE, so people looking at buying one will have something to start off their research with and we don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over. -->>>

That would be a great idea... because that's what I've been trying to compile for a while. Prior planning prevents buyer's remorse! As far as you 'having' to keep answering the same questions over and over... I'm sure it's frustrating being a member, in good standing, of the "we" community having to deal with us information craving members of the "them" community as we ask repetitive and often-times redundant questions. As a self-proclaimed spokesperson for the "them" community, may I offer "our" sincerest apologies. :-)

Jeff

So, I also am a member of the "them" community, composing the post it would be great about pros and cons. I am in the same boat as Jeff. Speaking of, Jeff, did you ever decide on a software, and if so what has your experience been.

Thanks,

Joe

_______
"Them" Newbies Member 101

Joe, I have not yet decided on what software to purchase. At this point, I am leaning towards the Matrox RTX Extreme w/the Adobe Video Collection standard version. A friend, who I will be working with some, already has Adobe software and I figure it would make it a great deal easier for file swapping to have the same software. Interestingly enough, he has not had many "glitches" that so many people associate w/Adobe software. What software are you leaning towards? I have gone back and forth about a 100 times about which one to buy. For awhile, I'd really lean towards Avid Xpress Pro... then I'd talk myself into Vegas + DVD... then back to Adobe... So, yeah, it's been a somewhat frustrating process for me. When the previous post talked about giving us a pros & cons list for newbies, I really was serious when I said I thought it was a great idea. It would help me out a ton. AND then we "thems" could stop bothering the "us's." Ha!

Jeff

it's free NLE and it works:

http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php3

id suggest u wait until V5 and DVD2 are released..

V5 will have compositing features normally found in tools such as cumbustion and particle illusion.

Dare I throw Media Studio Pro (http://www.ulead.com/msp/runme.htm) into mix ??

Comes standard with basic DVD authoring and "extra" 2D animation and rotoscoping tools not found in the other applications listed. Great compositing and also has a plugin for HDV work. Also looks like they just dropped the list price down to $300. (Probably in anticipation of the Vegas upgrade.)

The one thing I completely agree with right now is not to buy anything until Vegas5 comes out. It's only a week or so away so the last thing you want to do is buy something only to regret it once V5 is on the market.

Have fun.

Jeff,

I was leaning toward Adobe and back to Vegas, then back again. But I think I am going to heed the advice and wait til V5 comes out and demo it. Nick did you say it was a week away. Does anyone have any insider knowledge on the perks of V5. Best of luck to all in the decision process.

Thanks,

Joe

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Moore : Jeff,

I was leaning toward Adobe and back to Vegas, then back again. But I think I am going to heed the advice and wait til V5 comes out and demo it. Nick did you say it was a week away. Does anyone have any insider knowledge on the perks of V5. Best of luck to all in the decision process.

Thanks,

Joe -->>>

Anyone with "insider knowledge" is still under strict NDA.

any1 know the cost of the full version of vegas5+dvda-2?

<<<-- Originally posted by Yi Fong Yu : any1 know the cost of the full version of vegas5+dvda-2? -->>>

I'm sure that will be announced when Vegas5+DVDA2 are officially announced.

Buy an Apple eMac for a few hundred more than what you are going to spend on just software. You are new at video, Apple suppies you with all you need from sound, dvd, photo, and movie editor all for FREE. In some instances, they are bettter as a set than some expensive movie editors.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72603/wo/AG5F88jAnyAC3tVZt7Q1O443KAU/0.0.7.1.0.5.21.1.2.1.0.0.0.1.0

iMoive, iPhoto, Garageband, iDVD are all that you need to create awsome movies that will impress the pros.

Today in the video world, any computer can do just about all you need for family movies and short films. In fact, the first year I had switched from a custom PC to an iMac 800, I made over 5k just playing around and doing video conversions to DVD for people. Prior to the apple, I had spent thousands trying to get my PC box to work with Firewire. In fact, I still think they are having issues with them....

either choice you make, just make sure you get a simple enough program that will not turn you off and require too much time for you to learn it...speding countless hours just to understand the basics does not sound fun. Creativity needs to be expressed within a certain time-frame, or interest is lost. Using any of the above video editors will garentee a migrane. I used just about every one listed, except AVID.

Using Apples iLife suite is about as simple as checking your email....really.

Hi Jeff...

I strongly recomend a Mac. I have an eMac. The saying is true... "Once you buy Mac, you'll never go back". eMac has everything you need to get started. Perfect for us "newbies". Also... I heard through the vines on this board that a movie made it to the Sundance Film Festival using iMovie.

Once I get more familiar (and more money), I plan to purchase Final Cut Express, a slightly trimmed down version of Final Cut Pro... and alot less expensive.

About the eMac... mine needs to be upgraded. I only have 128mb of memory. iMovie runs kind of slow because of that. Also, my eMac doesn't have a dvd drive, nor does my eMac have iLife. I am going to purchase those eventually. Not to worry... most eMacs have all that stuff.

Hope this helps!

Actually, the saying is "Once you go black, you never go back." :D

Prior to the apple, I had spent thousands trying to get my PC box to work with Firewire. In fact, I still think they are having issues with them....

This is far from typically true, but more likely the kind of thing someone who did little necessary research would say about a PC.

Since the market for PC products dwarfs what's available to the Mac, the number of garbage products also goes up -- there are many junk firewire cards out there, but there's a high number of them which are wonderful -- so you've got to be picky about your purchases.

Make sure when you do purchase a firewire card that it comes from a reputable vendor (anything ADS or SIIG is wonderful, as are the 1394 Audigy's) -- and make sure they're OHCI, which means they don't need drivers -- to install them you open your case, plug them in, and boot up -- it's that simple.

I'd say stick with a PC, especially if you've already got it, or are more familiar with the platform. Vegas5+DVD is a bargain, and so is PPro/Adobe Production bundle.

I have Vegas 4 and I like the workflow (you could say I'm committed to it, now) so much more than standard NLE's.

Vegas 5 adds a LOT of bells and whistles to an already great program, but among them some genuinely great improvements -- most notably network rendering.

The biggest selling points for Vegas, to my mind, are its stability (can't remember the last time it crashed on me), flexibility (format agnostic timeline -- from quicktime up to HD and everything in between), audio features, and quality of its output.

- jim

We have just completed our first major production,
three days of location shooting w/ DVX100's, eight hours of footage to log and process, uncompressed animation sequences with alphachannel from Cinema 4D , stock footage converted from NTSC to PAL, soundtracks from ACID and royalty free discs, mastering in MPEG 1 for CD-rom, MPEG-2 for the DVD,
A total of 18 minutes of video - and vegas did not crash once, did not loose/corrupt a single file. Vegas is now a trusted friend for me.

The only irritating thing is that you can't insert a project into another, no "nested timelines" as in PP, you have to open two instances of vegas and copy/paste between them. I was hoping VV5 would have a solution to this, but Sony spent their time on 3D compositing tools instead which I very rarely use - slight dissapointment. But, network rendering saves the day, finally i can justify a rack-mounted PC ;)

/magnus