FreshDV has some great videos on their site from NAB. This one includes a visit to the Canon booth.

http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2009-dslr-3d.html

Watching that interview makes me suspect that Canon perhaps will rather update the firmware through new hardware -- i.e., that we have to buy a new version of the camera in order to get manual controls.

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That is what they said in recent post from support, Canon does not add features through firmware updates.

With recent announcement by Beachtek of their solution to the 5D sound issue, and Nikon lenses, the contol issues are reduced to ISO and shutter speed. Both are predictable and modifiable with work arounds, and perhaps that is the best we are going to see.

Of course that doesn't resolve monitoring issues either, but with Canon apparent lack of concern about making it right, at least we know where we have to go independent of them.

That is what they said in recent post from support,

Do you happen to have that post?

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This is thread. I directly inquired at Canon support and they responded with what I called the official party line:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/152702-eos-5d-mk-ii-firmware-update-video-not-coming-2.html#post1044829

Funny, the guy in the video and this guy are both named Erik.

I directly inquired at Canon support and they responded with what I called the official party line

Well, that's kind of a drag. I'm even more confused now -- I haven't gotten the MKII yet, but sooner or later I need something since I so impulsively sold my XL2 before understanding how crucial this manual aperture issue really was. Don't know what to do now.

By the way, here's a direct link to Greg's Canon post:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1042637-post42.html

Funny, the guy in the video and this guy are both named Erik.

Makes me go hum.

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That is what they said in recent post from support, Canon does not add features through firmware updates.

That's not true. Canon does add features through firmware from time to time. Please correct me if I am mistaking but I think the most recent feature addition was last month. The SX1 got a firmware update adding support for RAW.

That's not true. Canon does add features through firmware from time to time. Please correct me if I am mistaking but I think the most recent feature addition was last month. The SX1 got a firmware update adding support for RAW.

Yea, you are correct: Canon PowerShot SX1 IS Firmware Update (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/dcp/firm-e/pssx1is/index.html)

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Manual aperature issue is easily resolved using Nikon lenses with a Nikon to EOS. Simply set aperature as you want, then try to control the other factors through various work arounds. For the $ 700 buck extra they charge for the zoom lens package, you can buy a range of Nikon lenses on EBay with excellent glass.

Tripod shooting in most cases is best. If you are going to shoot hand held, a shoulder mount or stabilizer is a must. I made my own. If you try to shoot it in a serious situation in the standard 35mm hand hold position, while watching the LCD, it will not go well.

A loupe LCD view is also another must. I made one of my own along with my shoulder mount.

Sound will likely be double system, at least until Beachtek releases there 5D resolving adapter with level readout and monitoring cabability.

Manual aperature issue is easily resolved using Nikon lenses with a Nikon to EOS.

Still kind of a sad workaround for us who have invested in Canon L lenses... don't you think?

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Agreed. And you would think Canon would care. But what they care about more is that we don't replace their pro video line with this $2600 camera.

I honestly don't think they're that concerned with their PRO video line. I think they're more concerned with the fact that the camera is selling and they've made a profit (I assume) on it. And adding this manual control would cost them more money, and possibly slow the sales of the 1dm3s or whatever the next camera that has everything we want is.

If others are like me then the Nikon lenses that people are buying are old manual lenses. Nice optics & very cheap on eBay but with zero impact on the sales figures for either Nikon or Canon. I have bought half a dozen or more Nikon lenses but the total cost does not amount to even one used Canon 'L' lens. If Nikon shipped a 5D Mk II equivalent tomorrow with full manual control my collection of Nikon lenses would be no extra incentive to buy one.

If there are much better alternatives than the Canon 5d II at 2600$ then why did you guys buy it?

Obviously it's a still cam first and video second and even as a video cam it does a pretty amazing job. It's funny how everyone knocks Canon and is waiting for Nikon's latest and greatest but overlooks the fact nikon itself has 2 cameras (one not out but announced) that also don't have aperture control in video.

I really want canon to release the firmware too and imho it should be a no brainer than them but for those that keep talking about it not being worth it are not looking at what the product was intended to do.

If others are like me then the Nikon lenses that people are buying are old manual lenses. Nice optics & very cheap on eBay but with zero impact on the sales figures for either Nikon or Canon.

I think Gregory's point was that when people already have Nikon lenses in their possession, it just becomes so much easier to migrate to a Nikon camera. I happen to agree.

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Still cam first no doubt. But keep in mind that Canon has a booth at NAB with two demo 5D Mark II video rigs loaded up with RedRock, Zacuto, Ikan, and Cinevate gear.

Obviously Canon is changing how they look at it, and now endorse what we are doing. The important thing is that they understand.

Obviously Canon is changing how they look at it, and now endorse what we are doing. The important thing is that they understand.

Yes indeed, and Canon will probably enhance the video by a firmware update through new hardware so we have to buy a new version of the camera in order to get manual controls. Makes sense to me, (even if I'd rather like to see a firmware fix for the MKII).

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Overall I would be very suprised if there were that many folks who are shunning the Canon Lenses for the Nikon Lenses...
some other sites are reporting that Canon is having a hard time keeping up with some of the lenses popularity and some lenses are in short supply....

The only thing that using a Nikon lens gives you is manual control of the aperture.... the
picture quality isn't any better by using a Nikon over a Canon lens.. in fact in some situations
its just the oposite.

But other enhancements are also being given up by using a Nikon lens with adaptor....

A Canon lens is easy to control the aperture manually by using a simple varible ND filter...

Also, by using a Canon lens you gain the extra sensitivity of the focus sensors, the
ability of auto focus in both still mode and the single hit auto focus in video mode and
the auto aperture adjustments when you want to go all auto.

I have a couple of Nikon lenses that I have played with on my 5D but they were purchased
for use on my 35mm adaptor for my Canon Video Camera... my Canon lenses on my 5D
do much more for me than any of my Nikons could ever do on the 5D... plus I know
I'm getting better quality pictures than I could with the Nikons...

The only manual lens I'm considering now for my 5D is the 50mm Zeiss... may have
to get one of those as I see advantages with that lens over the Canon or Nikon lenses.

Yes indeed, and Canon will probably enhance the video by a firmware update through new hardware so we have to buy a new version of the camera in order to get manual controls. Makes sense to me, (even if I'd rather like to see a firmware fix for the MKII).

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Who knows! However, it is the 5D Mark II on the floor presented by Canon as professional video equipment. They are advertising it as a video camera. Maybe I am too optimistic but I think this means they are not done with it yet.

At least, I'm not ready to give up. I have not looked at my other camcorders the same ever since I got it. Maybe I'm nuts but they almost seem tainted and obsolete.

A Canon lens is easy to control the aperture manually by using a simple varible ND filter...

But what would you rather get; a vari ND filter that cost almost $400, or half a dozen used Nikon lenses..?

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They are advertising it as a video camera. Maybe I am too optimistic but I think this means they are not done with it yet.

Well, they are certainly not done with this format, i.e., HD-DSLR for professional video. However, I believe the MKII was more like a probe to find out how and if this format will fly -- and now, when it really did take off, Canon will probably move forward with a new series of HD-DSLR cameras, leaving the MKII behind. This relates to a previous post of mine: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/227657-elusive-firmware-fix-revelation-my-part.html

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The fact is, 5D2 video shooters who opted for Nikon lenses off of ebay instead of a handful of L lenses represents a tiny percentage of potential Canon lens' customer base. Not even enough to make a dent.

I hope the rumors are true, but wouldn't be surprised if they are not.

But what would you rather get; a vari ND filter that cost almost $400, or half a dozen used Nikon lenses..?

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Here's the thing, even when you gain aperture control via manual lenses, you may STILL NEED the NDs. Say you want shallow depth of field on a bright sunny day outdoors, manual aperture doesn't get you there.

This is one of the things that frustrates me a little, the call for aperture priority, cause I think what would be much more helpful in a lot of ways would be SHUTTER priority to gain a consistent look and feel. After that, use some NDs and you can get to the aperture you need. That said, I'd personally prefer full manual.

Here's the thing, even when you gain aperture control via manual lenses, you may STILL NEED the NDs.

Yes of course, but you don't need a $400 Singh-Ray vari-ND filter for that, as we were discussing here.

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Here's the thing, even when you gain aperture control via manual lenses, you may STILL NEED the NDs. Say you want shallow depth of field on a bright sunny day outdoors, manual aperture doesn't get you there.

This is one of the things that frustrates me a little, the call for aperture priority, cause I think what would be much more helpful in a lot of ways would be SHUTTER priority to gain a consistent look and feel. After that, use some NDs and you can get to the aperture you need. That said, I'd personally prefer full manual.

I agree, all good points.

If I lock the aperture at F/5.6, it seems like it favors keeping the shutter fairly constant in the range of 1/40th-1/50th, by manipulating the ISO speed. As you stated, ND will likely be needed.

But what would you rather get; a vari ND filter that cost almost $400, or half a dozen used Nikon lenses..?


Or M42, or OM or Y/C mounts. There's quite a few options for manual lenses. Adapting other mounts to EOS has been going on for many years. Nikon lens users have been using full-frame Canon DSLR's for many years... they didn't have any choice till recently.

Keep in mind that many older Nikon lens will _NOT_ fit current Nikon DSLR's except for certain cheaper models like the D40. Pre-AI lens will crush the metering prong on most modern Nikon bodies if you try to mount it. Those same lenses fit perfectly on an F-mount -> EOS adapter.

In another thread, testing of the auto shutter showed some interesting results. I summarized the testing result at post 87 at the link below. The tests showed that at any over 100 ISO (0r ISO 200 in one particular mode), the camera defaulted to a nominal 1/30 of a second shutter speed and it doesn't matter what you do.

On top of that, you cannot depend on the read out for actual shutter speed. The tests showed actual speeds as follows:

LCD -> Actual
Reads

1/40 -> 1/50
1/50 -> 1/50 or 1/100
1/60 -> 1/100
1/80 -> 1/100
1/100 -> 1/100
1/125 -> 1/125
1/160 -> 1/160
1/200 -> 1/200


Here is site:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1058676-post87.html

Chris, the readout you're referring to that doesn't read correctly is the one on the color LCD screen?

I think the only way I was able see a readout at all (in movie mode) was pressing the * button (exposure lock) from the live view screen, and it displayed a shutter speed and iso. The aperture I already knew because it was locked.

That's not true. Canon does add features through firmware from time to time. Please correct me if I am mistaking but I think the most recent feature addition was last month. The SX1 got a firmware update adding support for RAW.

And today Canon actually released new firmware: Canon updates firmware for EOS 50D, 450D & 1000D: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0904/09042301canonfirmwareupdates.asp)

Oooh sooo close, but no cigar ;^)

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Who knows! However, it is the 5D Mark II on the floor presented by Canon as professional video equipment.Not really. It is simply being presented. Only one bullet on the features poster says 1080p @ 30 frames; the rest advertise the still photo capability. Yes, they had two 5DmII's with 3rd party rigs at the Canon booth (and others without), just like they have a variety of 3rd party stuff and even vendor reps around the XL and XH cameras. Canon absolutely hears the customer feedback but there was simply nothing at the NAB booth to indicate whether or not a substantial firmware upgrade is in the works or not.

Even in the still camera world, the "1" series is the Professional line with a capital P. The "5" series as marketed more as enthusiast/low-pro.

The 5D Mark II rigs in Canon's booth are not configured for the soccer mom and birthday parties. To me it's obvious they are prepared for a production environment.

But fair enough. Maybe you are right :)

Overall
The only thing that using a Nikon lens gives you is manual control of the aperture....


.......A Canon lens is easy to control the aperture manually by using a simple varible ND filter...

......Also, by using a Canon lens you gain the extra sensitivity of the focus sensors, the
ability of auto focus in both still mode and the single hit auto focus in video mode and
the auto aperture adjustments when you want to go all auto......




Ray:

1 Manual control of aperature is everything in the depth of field game. That is what this camera is all about. That why we have gone the Nikon route.

2. I may be wrong about this, but it was my understanding that aperature setting on the Canon lenses was selected automatically based on lens focal length, when shooting in video mode. What you see as settings in live view, is not what you will get when you actually start video. Can someone confirm this ? Assuming use of NDs can provide a calibratable result, do you really want to stack extra glass in front of your fine lenses.

3. Use of auto focus for video is not even recommended by Canon. My understanding is that it is to slow to react.

4. I am not sure not sure what the evidence is about get better images with your Canon lenses.

This is kind of an obvious workaround, but for a Canon lens to lock the aperture at any desired setting, set the aperture and while holding in the depth of field preview button, press the lens release button and rotate the lens about 1 mm counter clockwise to unseat the electrical contacts. The lens won't fall out.

Chris, the readout you're referring to that doesn't read correctly is the one on the color LCD screen?

I think the only way I was able see a readout at all (in movie mode) was pressing the * button (exposure lock) from the live view screen, and it displayed a shutter speed and iso. The aperture I already knew because it was locked.

Yes, that display, by half pressing down the shutter button.

As far as aperature locking, this just isn't so with the auto Canon lenses, as I understand it. If you are using a manual lense (like Nikons), you can lock aperature at the ring, of course. As I have understood the testing, the Canon auto lens aperature is set by camera when camera capture starts rolling. Its based on some information fed to camera some of it relating to focal length. You don't lock it. That is why we have gone to Nikon lenses with adapters, we take that control away from the Canon. We are then stuck with the other variables left as we shoot, which we can lock with the "*" button, and those are predictable by the test results shown.

This is kind of an obvious workaround, but for a Canon lens to lock the aperture at any desired setting, set the aperture and while holding in the depth of field preview button, press the lens release button and rotate the lens about 1 mm counter clockwise to unseat the electrical contacts. The lens won't fall out.

This will also lock out all the other auto features, and deactivate stalization and autofocus, right ?

An easy test for DOF on a Canon lens is to just put your hand over the front of the lens,
take an exposure reading ( half press) then hit the * button to lock it down...

the Canon lens will be wide open....maximum DOF on the lens

done it many many times... same way with a ND filter...

Nothing wrong with putting a filter in front of a lens.... and lots of folks do it with a matt
box too....

Chris, your a HV20 shooter.... that one has a ND built in...

Red Rock has done it was a product called Live Lens:

NAB 2009 Video - Redrock Micro at FreshDV (http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2009-redrock.html)

It's steeply priced at $495 US, but it's also upgradable.

Red Rock has done it was a product called Live Lens:
NAB 2009 Video - Redrock Micro at FreshDV (http://www.freshdv.com/2009/04/nab-2009-redrock.html) It's steeply priced at $495 US, but it's also upgradable.

But that thing is built for their DOF converter. Bet it would be near impossible to hack it for the MKII.

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For video, auto focus only worked (for me) in Live-View by pressing the AF button. If the Quick option was selected, it flipped down the mirror and and did a one time autofocus using the regular DSLR autofocus system. If the Live view focus mode was enabled, pressing the AF button would focus from the 35mm sensor using contrast or face detection. But either way, it was not a continuous autofocus, nor would you want that, too noisy. I haven't tried stabilization to know how well it works with video. I regarded the interest in the 5DMkII to be mainly with people wanting another way to achieve the look they get with Letus and Brevis adapters. Those people shoot from tripods and focus manually.

But that thing is built for their DOF converter. Bet it would be near impossible to hack it for the MKII.

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But it does point out to me one flaw in present approach to hacking the 5D2. The hackers are attempting to disassemble the firmware code and then trying to rewrite it. The Red Rock Live Lens most probably was designed, by trying to understand the input and output signals to and from the Canon EF lenses, as a black box. I doubt that Canon gave Red Rock any information as to how the lens interacts with the camera processor, so Red Rock must have hacked the signals.

If the signals were all analog, that would be easy. But if some or all of the signals were digital, it might have taken a while to figure out. But this approach seems a lot more elegant than trying to understand and alter with the camera's firmware. Any EOS DSLR that accepts EF lenses must "talk" to all automatic Canon lenses the same way.

But this approach seems a lot more elegant than trying to understand and alter with the camera's firmware.

Then, perhaps this is even more elegant: conurus :: View topic - Possible to create a lens controller/override? (http://support.conurus.com/viewtopic.php?t=310)

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But it does point out to me one flaw in present approach to hacking the 5D2. The hackers are attempting to disassemble the firmware code and then trying to rewrite it. The Red Rock Live Lens most probably was designed, by trying to understand the input and output signals to and from the Canon EF lenses, as a black box. I doubt that Canon gave Red Rock any information as to how the lens interacts with the camera processor, so Red Rock must have hacked the signals.If so then Red Rock are not the only company to do so. Sigma, Tamron & any other 3rd-party lens manufacturer must also have figured out the camera/lens I/O signals. Alternatively Canon may license the interface.

Hey all, thanks for the linkage. Wanted to quickly note that we've had some unexpected server issues at FreshDV due to intense NAB video traffic load. We've been working round-the-clock to resolve the issues, and as of this morning are fully back online. E-mail or PM me if you have further problems accessing our video coverage. Apologies for the downtime, and we now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion...