Hi ,

I just want to check with the crew before I start this. I have a little trepidation starting a thread that deals with developing a "Frankenstein” alternative to the FS3, mostly because of this topic sections title " Focus Enhancements FireStore D.T.E. Recorders”, and the fact that Matt McEwen (hi!) is running the show. I’ve noticed that in the P+S topic, things have gone off in other directions.

I hope that this is o.k., but, I just want to check.

I work with the FS3 professionally and I like what it does and what it can do. I want Matt and Focus to know that I think that what Focus has done and is doing in this area is cutting edge and, although over due, ahead of its time. I would hate to deprive Focus of any business and thus incentive to continue the development of the FS series, with anything that I post.

Having said all that –

There are a few things that I feel need to be improved on the FS3.

1. The menu structure. Functions like retro cache, need to be easier and more quickly accessible. I would like to use the retro functions (retro cache, retro disc), but at the moment I wouldn’t want to risk switching modes while in action, for fear of missing something while I’m fumbling with the menu. I know that I could remedy this through practice and routine, but since the retro functions are new to how I shoot I’m finding it difficult to justify implementing them. I know that I would get used to them very quickly if I could switch from normal record to retro and back again rapidly.
2. I also find the record status indicators for FS3 unintuitive, both on the FS3 itself and especially the letter codes in the GY-DV5000. Some letters have multiple meanings. Blinking and non-blinking LEDs or letters is not sufficient to let me know what’s going on, especially when things get hairy. I know that I could eventually train myself to recognize the individual meanings of all the letters and blinks, but I would rather not. Symbols like the torn film stripe in the GY-DV5000 is a move in the right direction – but is not very reassuring. I always hope that it means that the FS3 is booting and not that it is having a problem booting.

I started looking into putting a FS3 package together for my XL1.

I think that the price of the FS3 itself is justifiable because it is built well, well thought out, functional, compact, and for reasons of making a professional impression when shooting. I have learned that too quirky looking equipment can shy clients away (or in same cases awake their interest).

Unfortunately, I don’t already own the necessary battery systems one needs to power the FS3. I could set myself up with a battery belt and build my own support system (I would do that anyway) and save a bit of money. But anything less than the Focus suggested battery systems, and especially an IPX battery rig, would be a compromise. Such a battery system is not financially justifiable for me at the moment.

So I am looking for alternatives to the FS3 system, because edit what I shoot and am already hooked on having my files ready when I’m done shooting – starting now - tape is for archiving. Okay starting tomorrow ... I mean soon.

Anyway I have some ideas ...

Does anyone want to hear them, and give me some input?

Does anyone want to put this thread under a different theme heading?

... Am I being too polite?

Let's hear them!

Okay,

I tried getting information about the ADS Pyro DV Drive (API-820) because I thought that that would be the simplest and least expensive alternative to the FS3, around $700 for 30 gigs.

All the wholesalers or retailers that distribute for ADS who I asked could not tell me anything about this drive system. And a technician from the ADS’s web page took four days to send me an email stating that he believed that API-820 "should” work with PAL cameras. In the API-820 PDF handbook, there is no mention of any video standard NTSC or otherwise. So I have given up on that alternative for the moment.

If anyone has any experience with the API-820 (ADS Pyro DV Drive) and PAL camera, I sure would like to know about it. I should probably put that question in it’s own thread.

Some of the disadvantages to a Pyro DV Drive vs. the FS3 is the lack of functions like Retro cache, Retro disc, time-lapse, no triggering via the record button from the camera, no TC slave, and no 4 channel Audio. Most of things would be nice to experiment with but I can live without them. For me at the moment the most important things, other than compatibility with my system, are easy triggering of the record function, mobility, and reliability. If the API-820 was compatible with DV PAL, it could be mounted directly on the XL1 making it easy to trigger it and to see that it is running.

My Frankenstein solution is a bit more complicated, and although I know that it will work, as far as DVPAL is concerned, I’m not sure how well it will work practically.

For about the half of what a FS3 would cost me here in Germany, including the mounting rig and Battery system, I can purchase a 12” i book G4 800 Mhz from Apple with a 60 GB internal HDD and an extra LiIon Battery (that Apple says will hold 6 hours (hah)). But even if one battery holds 2 hours, that would do. The i book is small enough that I could mount it to my chest. Using a modified USB game pad as record trigger, and the LCD / Video adapter connected to a LCD monitor mounted on the XL1 as a viewfinder/ record indicator. I would use the B-TV software created by Ben Bird (shareware) http://www.bensoftware.com/
to capture to disc. This software has a more sophisticated time-lapse capability than the FS3 offers. And since I do a bit of time-lapse that is another reason for me to try and build this system. B-TV is also good for triggering animation, and pixelation.

I’m not really looking forward to having a laptop strapped to my chest when shooting , partially because , having people asking me "Excuse me, but what have you got strapped to your chest?” all the time can be quite disturbing after a while. On the other hand it will be good to have the weight off the XL1 since I do a lot of hand camera work with it.

I will miss not being able to record 4 channel audio.

That’s it.

What does anyone think?

I'd put the laptop on my back, not on the chest if you decide to
go down that road. This is of no use to you now, but I do hope
future camera's will just be able to record directly to a firewire
harddisk if they detect one.

I expect that it won’t be long before a whole pallet of HDDs for video cameras will be available. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I can’t wait. Not having a camera at my fingertips makes me uncomfortable. Most of my jobs at the moment come on short notice.

As far as putting the laptop on my back –I expect , unfortunately, that I will have to access the laptop periodically while shooting. In general, I don’t like to put my camera down when I’m working. That doesn’t mean that I’m some kind of nut who can’t stop shooting once I’ve started. If you put your camera on the floor to change something, or on a table, especially in the heat of things, or when everyone is concentrating on what ever they’re doing on set, there is a big chance that your camera is either going to get stepped on or knocked over. That is one advantage to having everything on one unit – the camera never leaves your hands, even when you are checking things. If I have the recorder on my back – I will basically have to get undressed to do anything to or with it.

That's true. I was assuming you would go for a single external
start/stop record perhaps with a sound letting you know that it
has stopped or started recording (use different sound for both).

It was just a thought...

I’ll have to see how the set-up feels in action. Maybe putting the laptop in a hanging type shoulder bag will be best (although I can’t imagine it would) I am always surprised what works best with such rigged arrangements. I’ve ordered the 12” i book and I will put the set up together as soon as the i book has arrived.

I’m planning to start and stop recording with an USB programmable game pad or mouse. It would be great if there was such a thing as a programmable one button USB devise that I could use as a record trigger. I need something that is small enough that when I attach it to the camera it won’t be in the way. Something like the USB on/off (I-cue) switch for the mac extended keyboards. But it has to be programmable so that I can give it the keyboard command, which starts B-TV recording.

I won’t need a record indicator, ( a start stop sound is also a good idea) because I will see the computer screen on the LCD monitor which is also affixed to the camera. B-TV shows a second count while recording.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

This company makes buttons you can program to make any keyboard command you want through USB.

Hope this helps!

http://www.xkeys.com/

Thanks Kevin,

Very cool link!

Does anyone know if this would work?
A handheld computer with a firewire port (iPod or similar) connected to a 2.5" external 4,200rpm drive with 2 firewire ports, one of which then goes to the camcorder. The handheld would have a capture app installed.
I doubt whether this solution would be cheaper than a dedicated dv drive, but it would possibly be more flexible. On the other hand it may be just a nightmare!

I don’t know of any Hand held computers with capture software. Is there such a thing? Or is there such software? – Is there a Palm Pilot like hand held with Firewire?

I know that the Laptop variation will work ... I also know that it will be a nightmare, for active jobs. That’s why I have also ordered a MCE Quickstream as well. I would have just gone with the Quickstream, but my timing has been bad. I may try and sell the i-book I ordered. If I don’t, I plan to build the setup I am suggesting, to prove that it will work. It will be an ideal setup for remote Time-lapse and studio work. I just have to get a few more jobs of that type to justify the investment.

But it would be nice to know if anyone has heard of a Hand held with Firewire. I wouldn’t use an i-Pod because of it’s primitive display. But maybe there is something else out there.

FWIW...

I'm using an ADS API-820 with an NTSC Canon XL1s. I have the unit mounted to the MA-100 Canon XLR bracket. Fundamentally, it's very convenient because I can set the HD to "record" by pressing the button, and the disc begins capturing from the 1394 port as long as the camera is turned on. The disadvantage is that sometimes the HD takes a long time to initialize, otherwise, I'm happy with this solution. Since the stream is captured directly from the 1394 bus, and the drive allows selection of any number of formats, e.g. AVI, QT, I don't see whether it should care if it's PAL or NTSC.

I was unsure about the PAL / NTSC computability of the API-820 because the people at Focus told me that the FS3 comes in a PAL and a NTSC version. They couldn’t tell me why. I suspect it’s a marketing thing.

Anyway I didn’t like the fact that ADS didn’t state clearly that their API-820 is PAL compatible. That’s why I have ordered a MCE Quickstream – It is clearly stated that the Quickstream is PAL compatible, in their product description.

ADS should take steps to change that on their web site if they want to attract European customers.

Where did you order your MCE from Daniel? The suppliers in the UK have told me the QuickStream has not arrived yet.
If the ADS was a lot cheaper than the MCE then I would go with that, but there is not enough difference in price and the MCE offers a lot more.
I agree that ADS are not making their drive very attractive, and there is a distinct lack of distribution in this country. Maybe if it was better the price would come down.

Hi Neil,

I ordered the Quickstream over the MCE web site directly. I’m having it shipped to an address in the US, I’m going to be visiting in two weeks. I couldn’t find any distributors of ADS products here in Germany that wanted to help me order the Pyro DV Drive. So I’m assuming that the technology is too new and that MCE would have the same problem. Since I’m going to be in the States anyway, and I need a solution sooner rather than later, I’ve decided to solve the problem this way. I don’t like the fact that if I have any problems with the MCE Quickstrem, I’ll be kind of stuck. I hope for the best.

I can’t imagen that ADS’s strategy is to keep the price up by making it hard to get their products – they’re not selling gold, or heroin. But then again, I’m not a financial strategist. I think it has to do with bad planning and organization on the part of ADS.

Cheers,

Concerning the quickstream:

Mine arrived, had several extremely frustrating problems - audio dropout, non functioning battery - so i shipped it back to the states. Quickstream - to their credit - has been responsive and promised me a new drive. However the whole process has now taken me three months since the order date.

I will continue to post as this situaton unfolds.

Thanks Emmet, for your report.

It doesn’t sound very encouraging though. I hope the new one they send is ok.

Keep us posted

Mr. Kohl, if Mr. Lucey continues to post, a Wrangler will split his topics out of the thread if appropriate.

Okay.
Thanks,
Sorry if I've overstepping my bounds.

Does anyone know much about the Shining Technology CitiDISK?
I noticed that Datavision have reduced their whole range of these drives, so I emailed them to ask them why. It appears that they have a new supplier so are selling the old stock. More significant is that version B (does other formats besides raw DV)has a firmware problem which Datavision are working on.

The Creative Labs Zen handheld has a firewire port. I am just waiting to hear back from Creative if they know whether full res dv capture is possible. There are a few second hand Zens on ebay at the moment.

Dear Daniel,

Dont you think tying a laptop on ur shoulder or back or chest is gonna be restricting ur shoot considerably. moreover firewire connections are so delicate that it may ot take jolts of slight jerk whilst shooting infield. i broke a cable while shooting with my DV200 attched to FS3 ... it is not a practically possible solution when compared to the ease of use with FS3 though a bit pricy...but i am sure once you buy & start using it you will recover its cost with the numerous wys you can harness the power of FS3.

This my personal thought...you may differ.

please forgive me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that DV files needed a relatively fast hard drive to record. 7200 or at the least 5400 but I heard that something spinning so slow as 4200 wouldn't adequatley record a DV signal (i.e. you'd get drops out s and stutters and other stuff that doesn't sound very good) Other wise wouldn't it just be easier to buy a 40gb ipod and download some software so that it could take in footage?

Frankenstein is alive and well, and living in Dundee!
I have just bought an empty LaCie Pocket firewire/USB2 casing on ebay for £29 (the original drive had been stolen apparently!), and plonked in a brand new Hitachi 4200rpm ATA100 disk (also from ebay - £84). The result - perfect capture and record with no dropped frames for hours on end through my laptop with an Orange Micro firewire hub providing the 5v power for the LaCie.
I think a manufacturer would clean up if they brought out a front end mini OS without any frills that could plug in to a drive of your choice, and priced at £100-150.

I have just found out that the CitiDisk version B is identical to the Pyro API-820. The Pyro is slightly cheaper.
Am I the only one writing to this forum? I feel lonely!

Hi Neil,

Don’t feel lonely. I’ve, just gotten back from traveling, and have a job right off the bat.

I finally got the power book I was talking about at the start of this thread, so I am about to try out my proposed Frankenstore as soon as I get some breathing room. I’ve also ordered the quickstream, because I am sceptical about my own proposal. But MCE is having trouble delivering, I was hoping to have it by now.

I’m confused about something – you say the CitiDisk is identical to the Pyro? ADS makes the Pyro and MCE makes the Quickstrem, who makes the CitiDisk.? There are some threads that suggest that MCE makes the CitiDisk as well, but I think that it is unlikely that they would come out with two products that are so similar at this early stage of the game, especially if they are having trouble delivering even one product.

Your right there hasn’t been much chatter lately, maybe everyone is on holidays.

Cheers

Welcome home Daniel!
The CitiDisk is made by Shining Technology. I suspect that there are only one or two companies making all these products (like Focus Enhancements make the JVC FireStore). It was DVStuff that told me about the Pyro/CitiDisk re-badge.
This page may be of interest to all the Franks out there:

http://www.ipodlounge.com/articles_more.php?id=69_0_8_0_M

I should be editing right now, but the mini monster creation bug has got me going!

Thanks Neil,

For the link- It doesn’t surprise me that the i-pod is not suitable for DV capture – The article didn’t say how they were capturing to the i-pod did it?

I plan to use a standard pocket Firewire drive for any overflow from the internal HDD of the powerbook.

I’ve started to put things together – last night I cannibalized an old USB mouse to serve as a remote trigger for starting and stopping capture. That works fine. And capturing from the XL1 has been stable so far. LCD monitor/ computer screen works as well, after I switched the video system on the PB from NTSC to PAL. That took me a few minutes. Unfortunately due to the extreme delay between the monitor /computer screen and what is being shot, I won’t be able to use the computer screen monitor to shoot from. I’ll add a switch to that so that I can toggle between camera monitor and screen monitor, just to be able to check that everything is running, while shooting.

I just need the time now to put the carrying system together, so that everything is in it’s right place – for me, that is the biggest factor which will decide whether this rig is really usable in the field or not.

I’ll post more as soon as I get things more together.

I've often wondered about an iPod solution. I can see no reason why an iPod could not be used. True, it only spins at 4200 RPM but that is true of most of the Apple laptop drives as well. Plus, there is a 60g version on the way.

So, the issue is one of interface. It seems that if the SDK (?) is available then some savvy programmer ought to be able to build a small front end that would allow you to use an iPod. After all Belkin makes both a voice recorder front end and a front end for downloading photos off of a camera or memory stick (albeit slowly).

Apple apparently did hire a video specialist in their iPod division (or at least advertised for one).

Now, consider another new wrinkle. A WIRELESS firewire standard has been approved. So, abandon the cables and just put a wireless transmitter on your camera.

Hi Jeff,

Can you pls update us with the web info of this wireless firewire transfer stuff...how far is the range gonn work or soething more than this...

!!!

The articles I've seen have mostly talked about the standard in terms of speed (FW400) not in distance. The one article said that the bandwidth will be first come forst served.

Here is an article that talks about using the standard in a product. The distance given is >10m.
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19990827S0032

There will likely be mush more about this as more companies rush to market.

I cannot understand why D2D drives are so expensive when it is possible to buy an Archos 500512 Video AV120 with Digital Video Recorder 100 Module that captures MPEG4 video for $259 . I would have thought that there is far more technology in the Archos than even the most complex D2D (nNovia or FS3 for example). If the demand is not big enough then the makers could only blame their pitiful marketing.
I think Shining Technology are having teething problems with their CitiDisk Pro and Beetle Analogue to Digital Converter because they have still not arrived in the UK.
How did you convert your USB mouse Daniel?

Hi Neil,

I agree with you about the price of these devices, especially since the ones I have tried out - the MCE Quickstream and Shining's CitiDisk - don't work like they should. They are in fact made cheaply, at least they look and feel that way. So there goes the craftsmanship reasoning for a high price. The FS3 is the only device, from the three that I have had my hands on, that could have the excuse of being expensive because of how it is built. But it is also significantly more expensive - so I don't know. I wish that the Citidisk and the Quickstream were cheaper, I would buy two if they were! that is if they also worked like the manufacturers have led us to believe they should.

Are you sure that there are no distributors for the CitiDisk in the UK? I found several here in Germany. Check Shining's web site, if you haven't already.

To answer your last question; I disassembled a Logitech two button wheel mouse and soldered a two pole wire to where the mouse click switch is for one of the mouse buttons. The other end of the wire has a small simple button switch which I hot glued to the handel of my XL1. Pushing the button jump circuits the mouse button making a click. I assigned a letter to the mouse click on that button with the Logitech mouse software and in turn gave that letter as short cut for BTV to trigger capturing.

Reading back it sound more complicated than it is. I didn't even damage the mouse with this modification.

I have to get around to putting some pictures on-line. Your interest will help motivate me to do that.

Thanks for asking

Bruce Yale says that the Quickstream, CitiDisk and Pyro DV Drive all use the same PCB (made by Shining), so it is deeply depressing that they all would have the same faults. I too want to use a D2D with an XL1, also an old Sony DXC3000 standalone (using an analogue to digital converter), so my choices are reduced to nNovia or FireStore FS3, both of which I cannot afford.
This review may be of some interest:
http://www.dvstuff.co.uk/pdf/dvdrive.pdf

Thanks Neil, for the review link. It sounded like who ever was doing the review, had had a CitiDisk sent to them from the manufacturer. It would be nice if Shining and MCE would retail the same product they send to reviewers.

Because you are posting here, and not under one of the headings that have more to do with the CitiDisk or other D2D topics, I assume you are contemplating a Frankenstore type solution.

I haven't been keeping up on how my Frankenstore has been getting along. sorry about that.

So I'll just note a few problems I have already had with this set up in the field. The most obvious one is the size. I shot footage for a project using an improvised harness, with the laptop hanging on my chest. I had some major back pain after two hours of shooting(It was almost like having a Betacam on my shoulder). There is also an issue with noise; the powerbook's fan went on after about ten minutes of capturing. It wasn't a major problem for me in that situation, but if it comes to close quarters shooting and quite situations that could be a problem. The third problem, which I will eventually solve, is the cable issue. I have to find a way to disconnect the three cables leading to the camera from the laptop with one plug. Without this, I found myself walking around with the camera in my hand all the time. Not good especially when I wanted to quickly adjust lights. Other than that, though, the system worked like I expected it to.

.

Your idea of carrying a laptop around to record is interesting. Some of the laptops these days are extremely small. I wonder if getting a laptop and the "dvrack" programme would be a viable option. Certainly the cost may be similar and you have a computer you can edit in the field.
You would need a good way of carrying the laptop around and also getting a cable that can securely stay fixed upon the camera and the computer would be a challenge too. Maybe some sort of vest at the front of the chest that allows you to open the laptop to see what you are recording could be useful.
I also wonder what would happen when you disconnect the cable from the camera and reconnect it again. If the dvrack programme goes into some sort of elaborate startup setting before you can start recording again it would be a pain.
Like I said on another thread, you're basically stuck with Nnovia or firestore. All the others have quality control issues at this stage.

Seems like one of the new pen/windows based PCs might have some application here. Or a home made sbc (single board computer) might be another. custom/homemade sbcs' were a popular way to store mp3 files until the ipod came along. Sounds like a ripe opportunity for an tech oriented enterprising individual.

You could even use linux and a free/open source capture/management app.


Google is your friend.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Joe! SBC's have got to be the answer. Please have a look at:
http://www.evalue-tech.com/evalueweb/products/specifications/ECm-5716.cfm
The only drawback with this SBC is the size. It is more like the Datavideo DV Bank than a CitiDisk! The PC/104 system is amazingly small, and there is no need for a fast cpu unless you intend to use the SBC for editing on location (which would be possible with the Evalue one. Please look at: http://bluechiptechnology.co.uk/product_group.php?group_id=3
This model would have to use the Ampro IE1394 Mini Module piggy backed on to it, but it would very small for a mini computer.
The Ampro site is:
http://www.ampro.com/html/mm_1394.html
The main problem is what we would need to be displayed on an LCD screen. If a touchscreen module was incorporated the whole OS desktop would be visible, and a matchstick could be used as a pointer. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Hi Neil,

This isn't exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread - but it sounds like you know what you are talking about. It would be a dream come true for every Frankensteiner or machine cannibal out there. Imagine it!, we could glue our capture devices together into any shape or form we like. I really like what you are suggesting.

I just have one question for you... How much do you think it would cost to put together a device, using the components you are suggesting , that would perform the function that we are looking for. The recording of the DV stream coming out of a DV camera's Firewire jack, onto a HDD, in a wrapper that would be directly useable by a NLE system without the NLE system having to render it first? And how long would you need to build it?

Cheers,

I was looking around the Community (this community that is). And I found a very interesting thread which is way too technical for me, but is dealing with some related issues to those mentioned here, especially in this thread.

The topic is "Special Interest Areas > Alternative Imaging Methods > Home made camera designs?".

These guys are maniacs, and I feel like a pharmacist compared to the mad scientist in that thread - I wish I knew what they were talking about!

But there are a few things I could picked out of there discussion which may be of interest in this thread. Here are some links I stole from the "Home made camera designs?" people.

http://www.fase.co.jp/IEEE1394en/PC-CUBE/

http://www.alternaware.com/

If someone could bring these two things together, then maybe we could build a cheap D2D solution. It's too bad that the only mac-Cube around is the one that fit under or on your desk.

To answer your questions Daniel - My maximum budget for the D2D would be £600, but remember this device is not just a D2D, it's a mini-computer! Basic SBCs seem to go for £250 - 350. Firewire modules are about £90. The rest of the budget would be on a small LCD screen, power supply and enclosure. I would have to use Win XP Embedded (only 160mb) on either a flash card or 2.5" drive. I have not decided whether to have the video drive internally (IDE) or externally (firewire) mounted.
The capturing would be done by your favourite NLE software, so re-rendering does not occur, and you could even plug in a monitor to edit if you want!
A cheap way would be to raid an old laptop because they all use SBCs. The only trouble is finding out which ones have PC104-plus expansion sockets (PC104 does not work with firewire modules). If it all works, hopefully within two weeks of getting all the bits, I promise to do a Mac version!
That Cube thing looks like what I am doing except with a faster cpu. Shame it has to use mains power though, and why does it use a 3pin XLR for the 12v supply instead of the video industry standard 4pin? Do you know how much it costs?

I don't know how much the cube costs, I didn't even really read everything on the linked page, because I don't know enough to evaluate what's listed there, it's all too technical for me.

It looks like you didn't include the cost of the HDD.

I like the idea of raiding an old laptop - that was basically what I was trying to do at the start of this thread. I just don't have the technical knowhow to get rid of the stuff in the laptop that is not "needed" so that it would be small enough to mount on the camera or be carried on ones body. You seem to think that one only needs the SBC part of the computer for the capturing functionality. It sounds simple, I wonder why the manufacturers have been having so much trouble getting the things to work.

Strange about the power jack on the cube - maybe thats a standard in Japan. I've seen three pin XLR power used before. DEDO lights used to use them. Kind of dangerous if you are shooting with sound cables on set. I'd hate too see what happens when you plug a stereo mixer into a DEDO transformer.

I can't wait to see your first prototype.

Cheers,

<<<-- Originally posted by Neil Goodwill :

The main problem is what we would need to be displayed on an LCD screen. If a touchscreen module was incorporated the whole OS desktop would be visible, and a matchstick could be used as a pointer. Please let me know your thoughts on this.
-->>>

To give you guys a sneek peek at what I am building (actually I have it working, but I have dropped frame problems that I mentioned in a different thread).

I bought a "MIPI" (actually 3) on eBay really cheap.

You can see what they look like here:
http://www.ultim8pc.co.uk/index.asp?folder=main&filename=mipi&title=Freetech+Mipi+barebones

it weighs about the same as a laptop.

I am going to get a 7" Liliput VGA touchscreen LCD display for it:
http://www.bigbruin.com/reviews/lilliput/index.php

These two, plus a keyboard, mouse/trackball combo, and the external power supply and all cables all fit into a shuttle softcase/bag:

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=5977&GroupID=37


Pros (once I get the dropped frames issue worked out):

- Direct to disk recording
- Editing via NLE on the spot.
- CD/VCD/DVD burning on the spot (right now mine just has a regular CD drive it it. That will be upgraded eventually).
- Ability to use vectorscopes and waveform monitors in Premiere to calibrate the camera on site.
- Probably can use DVRack as well, only concern is the built-in video card. WIll try to use DVRack demo and see if it works
- Realtime review on the spot of video footage - no rewinding, dumping to PC, etc. necessary

basically all the same advantages that you get w/ a lap top.

Advantages OVER a laptop
- Price ( about 1/2 - 1/3 the price of an equivalent laptop in terms of CPU, etc. - obviously the monitor is not equivalent!)
- If the video display dies, it is easy and cheap to replace it
- Much easier upgrade path (simply replace the CPU, HDD, etc., and desktop components are cheaper than laptop components - besides, how many Celeron 1.7GHz laptops can be easioly upgraded to a P4 3GHz machine?)

CONS

- Portability is the big one. Just as easy to cart around as a laptop, but there is no battery option, hence you are tied to plugging into a wall AC outlet (if anyone knows a solution to this, let me know).
- heavier and less portable and less convenient than something like a FireStore, but so is a laptop. :-) I still think that the laptop option is superior to the FS solution for the same price!


Mine is so cheap because I got it for a steal on eBay. At first I was looking at Mini-ITX MB/Cases (lie a Travla C134 with the Epia M10000 MB). The problem is that the EPIA CPUs are 1.0GHz CPUs, but they are Pentium-calss chips. NOT Pentium II, III, or 4, but Pentium. That pretty much nixed the idea of using one of those, which is too bad, because you can get those VERY small. Some will fit in your car dash where a standard radio would go! THat is small!

There are MINI-ATX, and other Small Form Factor MBs out there that will take Pentium 4 class processors. You just have to google around for them. Lots of people are taking these small MBs and making very unique cases out of them (www.mini-itx.com), making car PCs out of them, etc.

A small case will run around $200, give or take up to $50. You gotta search around. To get an idea of what you can expect to find, check out this site:

http://www.sfftech.com/printdocs.cfm?aid=453

And of course you can build your own as well.

Anyway, there are a host of solutions out there, provided that you know what the pros and cons are of these solutions and are willing to accept their limitations (in exchange you get something far more versatile that a FS solution for 1/3 the cost or less).

Alex F

The reason I did not include the drive price Daniel was because I seem to be able to pick up laptop drives on ebay for very small amounts.
In addition to the PC104plus option I am also into using car pc devices. I have just bought a Cappuccino TX3 on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1498&item=5733185660&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
A very low price considering the cpu is included. Win XP Pro can be used, and I intend to install the video drive and lcd display into the space for the cd drive. If I do not manage to get it working as a d2d I can always use the TX3 in my car!
Another, but larger option is the MP SC1 barebone system at:
http://store.karpc.com/item-MP-SC1-Barebone--MC-MPSC1A
Only £138, and I could use a Socket 370 Celeron I took out of a desktop when upgrading.
I was being naive when I thought of using a matchstick for the touchscreen. It would have to be a stylus, and I am still having extreme difficulty in sourcing a 3.5" display and touchscreen. Does anyone know if a PDA display would work in this situation?

Both of those are really nice. I had looked at the Cappucino when they first came out, but they were much more expensive than what they are going for on eBay!

They are certainly prettier and smaller than my MIPI!

I assume that they are FW 400 ports and not older FW 200 or 100 ports. I was worried about the MIPI because it did not specifically state which they were. I just hoped that they were FW400 since the MB were relatively new (they are FW 400).

I like the fact that my MIPI can take both desktop HDD and laptop drives, and at the same time. This way I can get a 40 GIG 2.5" drive and run my OS off of it, and get a 200+Gig drive just for video storage, and desktop drives are cheaper than laptop drives.

That being said, I think that if I did not get my MIPIs so cheap, I would probably be seriously looking into these two that you mentioned. I like the Cappucino option the best, personally.

Not sure what you mean about installing the video drive and LCD display where the CD drive goes...

I assume that you mean that you will replace the CD drive with a laptop drive, but I don't get how the LCD has anything to do with that.

As far as the LCD goes, you might want to check out the link for the Lilliput LCD display on my previous post.

A PDA display will not work because it is not VGA. It won't take a VGA signal in from the PC, and even if it could, the resolution is inadequate unless you plan on only seeing the "Start" button portion of your desktop. :-)

The 7" lilliput is a VGA monitor, LCD, touchscreen.

Mine will be dual purpose. I will be using it with the MIPI PC for D2D recording, and it will also go in my car for my car PC (another MIPI).

Alex F

This is the spec for a Sharp 3.5" touch display used in many PDAs and SBCs:
http://www.inhandelectronics.com/pdf/LQ035Q7DB02.pdf
From this, perhaps you can tell whether I will get the whole picture or just the Start icon (Which would be extremely annoying!). I may have to buy a controller card for this type of display.
Please have look at:
http://www.cappuccinopc.com/cappuccinotx3.asp
It says that both fw ports run at 400Mbps each. Does this mean they are Firewire 400?
The TX3 will be arriving in about 5 days hopefully, so I will let you know how I am getting on.

I forgot to put this link in my last message:
http://www.tridentdisplays.co.uk/home.shtml
They do a very nice 4" VGA touch display (I was talking to their Scottish sales rep yesterday), but I do not know the price yet.

Yes, the 400Mb is Firewire 400.

The 4" display for handhelds is only 320x240 resolution. Not enough. You are either going to see just the lower corner of your desktop, or everything will be really small and undreadable (small fonts will be just 1x1 or 2x2 pixel groups if you view an entire desktop on the LCD). That, and I don't really know how you would get it to run off of a VGA signal (it may say on the site but I didn't read it).

OK, now I see, they have a 4" VGA display, but it is not really VGA. IOW, with their extra card that you put in the PC (which may or may not fit into the cappuccino) you can run the VGA signal out to the 4" screen. Still the screen is 320x240, which will give you the same problems that I mentioned above. You will only see part of the desktop, or if they scale it from something like 800x600 down to 320x240 it will be pretty much unreadable.

The thing that I like about the 7" Lilliput (and there are other ones as well, both cheaper and more expensive - the cheaper ones are not worth it, and the more expensive Xenarc while more reliable and robust, is not as sharp as the lilliput), is that it is a "real" VGA display. The resolution is 800x480, and the "dot resolution" is 2400x480

Not really sure what the difference is between the resolution and the dot resolution...

Either way it gives you a larger resolution desktop. Lilliput also makes an 8" VGA display that is 4:3 (the 7" is 15:9). The 8" ones actually go for around the same price or less than the 7" ones on eBay simply because there is more demand for the 7" ones from CarPC users.

They also make NTSC versions of these displays, but you do NOT want that. You want the VGA version.

Lastly, if you want to set these things to non-standard resolutions, you can get software call power strip that will allow you to set any resolution (ex. if you want 1024x1024 instead of 1024x768, power strip will allow you to get that whereas otherwise windows and the display drivers will not, natively).

If there are other better or equally as good solutions out there, I would certainly like to know about them!


Alex F

The Cappucino thing looks very interesting. How would you user interface it? I can't imagine how you would be able to connect a touch screen to it....however I have to admit that I can't imagine how you would attach a touch screen to anything. Your project is way out of my class. But I'm just curious: you would normally user interface the Cappucino thing and others with a keyboard and mouse right?