Hello.

I've got a laptop turning up this week, my first one I've owned with enough oomph to do video editing. I'm quite prepared for the sound outputs on it to be atrocious. And the sound inputs to be worse. So I'd like an interface.

I have a desktop PC. It's better, in audio terms, than anything I've owned before, but as soon as the CPU experiences activity (scrolling will do the trick), there's lots of noise. So I'd like an interface.

And oh yes, I'd like it to be the same interface. I only use one machine at a time, so I can swap them over.

So this means having a USB or Firewire interface, I guess. I did like a feature of the EMU 1616m PC Card version though, since that had a headphone output on the card, meaning, I suppose, that the box could be left at home. My laptop will have an Express card slot however. If a manufacturer offered an external box that worked off of an express card or a PCI-Express card, and it was possible to purchase the other separately, that could be an option, but I'm guessing it would add lots to the price, even if the card doesn't do much.

I require two balanced line-level outputs (to connect to powered monitor speakers, when I have saved up for them). I require a high quality headphone output for my Sony HDR-7506. Input-wise, it would be handy to have some extra inputs for when I need more than my Tascam HD-P2 can provide. So they would need to be balanced, capable of providing 48 volts of phantom power, and low noise- at least on a level with the HD-P2. I don't need lots of them though- I'd much rather have 2 of high quality than 6 of middling capability.

Since it will be taken places, it should not be too fragile, nor too big (rackmountables are too bulky).

Budget is circa £300.

Any advice gratefully received. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure the Presonus Firebox will work great for you.

Buy PreSonus FireBox 24-bit/96kHz FireWire Recording System | Audio Interfaces & Convertors | Audio Interfaces | Musician's Friend (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/PreSonus-FIREBOX-24bit96kHz-FireWire-Recording-System?sku=184133)

I run two of the FP-10s (Firepods) daisy chained together and they perform well. I would not do anything with USB for audio due to poor latency issues. I haven't used the Firebox, but it looks to me to be a tiny version of the FP-10.

the only issue is that its gotta be turned on before the computer is turned on, and should only be turned off after the computer is off!!!! if either of those criteria are not satisfied, you may need to re-sync your interface to your recording software.

I am not sure how reliable this place is, but the unit Alec recommended is available for well under your budget here:

PreSonus FIREBOX FireWire Audio Interface with FREE Steinberg Cubase LE Software (http://www.imuso.co.uk/ProductDetail.asp?StockCode=ST00406)

Although there was only one user review at Amazon UK.......

Presonus Firebox - 24 Bit, 96 Khz, 6 In , 10 Out: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Presonus-Firebox-Firewire-Recording-System/dp/B0006VYH1Q)

...... there were 21 reviews at Amazon USA for you to read:

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: PreSonus FireBox 6X10 Firewire Recording Interface (http://www.amazon.com/PreSonus-FireBox-Firewire-Recording-Interface/product-reviews/B0006VYH1Q/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1)

John

I would suggest MOTU gear over Presonus. Presonus cheaps out on their preamps, and the sound isn't what you would call "stellar". If you are looking for a more Pro sound quality and more options let me suggest "MOTU UltraLite mk3 FireWire Audio Interface". It can be powered by the firewire alone (one cable!), it's portable (Great for remote recording) has 2 xlr/inst preamps, + 6 more line level inputs. Midi and S/PDIF. It can be used as a regular mixer with no computer involved if you like. Just read abut it. It's awesome. I use the "Traveler" and started on PC with that, then graduated to Mac.


Buy MOTU UltraLite mk3 FireWire Audio Interface | Audio Interfaces & Convertors | Audio Interfaces | Musician's Friend (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MOTU-UltraLite-mk3-Firewire-Audio-Interface?sku=241882)

You really don't want to skimp on audio. It's half of the whole video game. If you skimp on your audio interface, then everything that goes through it suffers. MOTU has a great track record.

Good luck!

Chad

Just goes to show ya how subjective a question sound is. In my experience, MOTU and Presonus are both very unacceptable solutions. I would heartily recommend Echo or M-Audio. Both work very well with Avid, ProTools, and Soundforge.
Edit: The thing to look at is the idle noise level. Most cards will run -90dBFS, or worse. A good card will run better than -100dBFS. Good circuit board desogn and good shielding may matter more than the chipset.

I would heartily recommend Echo or M-Audio. Both work very well with Avid, ProTools, and Soundforge.

The Motu family of audio interfaces are all built upon essentially the same platform. The newer generation utilize Texas Instruments TMS320 series of DSP processors to handle bussing and routing. The converters are Asahi Kasei (AKM), and are the same converters used in many other brands of interfaces, including Digidesign, RME, M-Audio, Roland, and many more. Given their strong Macintosh drivers, these units are fantastic choices for an Apple-based home studio as well as PC.

{{{{EDIT}}}}
Of course there is a little marketing involved here, but EM loves this interface:
http://www.motu.com/newsitems/ultralite-reviews/


And yes there is definitely better equipment out there. But for price/quality MOTU is awesome. You can always get a more expensive preamp later. Also, don't skimp on microphones either. But that's another thread.

Laptop:-
For editing (IE: just need a good headphones output) then look at these three:-
Cakewalk UA-1G (http://www.cakewalk.com/products/UAUM/UA1G.asp)
Echo Indigo DJx (or IOx if you want an in as well) (http://www.echoaudio.com/)
M-Audio Transit (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit.html)

I have been using the M-Audio Transit - and it's excellent - but it does not seem to like my new Vista laptop - so I am now getting the Cakewalk (and probably the DJx as well as that is so easy for editing on the move).

If you want a proper pro soundcard wioth multi ins and outs, then I would look at RME (http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php) - I have a Fireface 400 at the moment and a PCI card in my main PC.

I hope this helps.

Of course, it oughtn't to be subjective, at least in terms of SNR, and noise floor, etc. But I wouldn't trust the stats coming from any manufacturer- I've been in IT long enough to know about the various entrenched fibs they all tell, such as printer speeds and so on.

I know that humans can't trust their instincts- if you like or hate a brand, it can make you hear things that aren't there (or in this case, not hear things that shouldn't be there!).

Thanks for the suggestions so far, chaps.

The MOTU ultralte is nearly twice my budget. So many of these things stack on dozens of line level inputs, which are near to useless for me, and would much rather they took what they spent on that and spent it on superior pre-amps. I like how it looks, I'll be honest.

Bill- which products from Echo and M-Audio are you thinking of in particular? The ProFire 610 looks interesting, I could see the dual headphone sockets being damn handy at times. The Echo AudioFire 4 seems pretty similar, though it lacks the dual headphone sockets (and it's 3.5mm, too). Looking around online, lots of suggestions that the pres on the 610 are a bit weak, and you need to push the gain and ending up with more noise than is generally welcome.

It's interesting to note that there are a lot more USB interfaces than Firewire. I guess this might partially be down to the greater ubiquity of USB, and also because for a lot of people, latency isn't that big a deal. It's probably nigh-on irrelevant when recording, but when you need it to sync up with video on playback, that's a different matter. And that's my concern. This will be used more as an output than an input.

Speaking of which, the headphone outputs- are these just monitors of the inputs, or outputs from the computer's audio? I need the latter, obviously, but I note that Sound Devices USB interface is just a monitor. And too expensive! The headphone amp needs to be good too, as currently it will be my ultimate authority on whether it sounds clean or not. I have a suspicion that the headphone output on my Tascam HD-P2 is actually making the captured audio sound noisier than it is. It's still better than the output found on my A-T 1800 receiver though, which is shockingly poor.

When I'm monitoring seriously I use HD 800 headphones through a Grace m902b. The Grace is fed with an optical digital signal from the laptop via the M-audio Transit (Cakewalk in the future as I can't get the Transit to work with my new laptop - but the headphones and amp alone are about £3,000.

The Transit and Cakewalk are both under £100 and give a good headphones signal when I'm on the move (where I use HD 25-1 headphones).

The Echo DJx is about £180 and (I'm told) has an excellent headphones amp. as this fits in the laptop's express card slot it's very easy for editing on the move (they also do a PCMCIA version if you have the old slot).

hi, totally new to the forums, but not new to audio production both live and studio.

I personally would second the ECHO AUDIO interface over any of the ones mentioned. Echo uses the best word clocks you can get for the money, and it is the word clock that makes or breaks an interface.

the Audiofire 4 is simply amazing for the money, on par with Apogee...
Echo Digital Audio Corporation (http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/AudioFire4/index.php)

cheers~

Phil...

I, personally, use an older Echo Mona. Unfortunately, this PCI device is no longer available. Perhaps the Echo Layla is comparable PCI device.I also have an Echo Audiofire 12. While the performance is outstanding, the firewire devices don't have the seamless capability that the PCI devices have. By the way, for the same latency reasons, I would avoid any USB sound devices.

So, I also recommend the M-audio cards. I have a delta 1010LT, which is as nice a card as the Echo Mona, it just doesn't have the slick interface box. But, in some cases, the delta 1010lt outperformed the Mona. Both the Echo and the M-audio product line work well with Avid Media Composer. As you may(or not) know, Avid is very picky when it comes to audio.

IMHO, the MOTU product line is excessively priced, and you don't get, in performance, what you paid for.

If you want a proper pro soundcard with multi ins and outs, then I would look at RME (http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php) - I have a Fireface 400

I'd give it some consideration if it wasn't well over twice my budget!

I was just looking at a few of the truly mini devices, such as the CEntrance MicPort Pro as an input. But although tiny, I'd need two to get up to what's offered by the next size up devices as discussed above...so not great value. As output, I'd just looked at the IOx actually, which obviously scores highly for portability. Not so highly for the inputs- no pre-amps. There's no point me having any inputs without pres. And it's rather pricey for what it is.

Did you not have any sync issues with the USB devices, John? The Transit is certainly cheap, and for times when I know I only want to edit, assuming the output was super-clean (and if sync wasn't an issue), it might be worth having, given the size.

As you may(or not) know, Avid is very picky when it comes to audio.

I know how picky it is about graphics cards, which is why I am in a perpetual state of crossed fingers about the laptop (it has ATI graphics) though several people have had success, apparently.

Since it needs to work on the laptop (and in fact that might be the only place it gets used unless the headphone output is amazing, since I am unlikely to record near my desktop, and I have no good monitor speakers yet), I have to steer clear of PCI cards, though I can completely understand why that (or the modern equivalent, ExpressCard/PCI Express) is better.

The audiofire 12 I feel is a bit too big, and I would end up not taking it with me.

I've just realised that, as is probably the case with virtually every laptop owner, I have just a 4 pin connector available. Meaning no bus power. Will need a power socket, or to buy an ExpressCard firewire card to get a 6 pin socket! Grrr. They aren't cheap, it seems.

Anyone have anything to say about Focusrite? The Saffire looks interesting, though it's also quite elderly in comparison.

ahhh.I understand your dilemma. Didn't realize you were dealing with a laptop. If your onboard soundcard won't handle things, it may be worthwhile to accept the latency issues and go with a USB solution. The Digidesign boxes work OK, and if you're working with Avid MC, go with the Digidesign Mbox2. Last I checked, the Mbox2 mini won't work with Avid.

Last I checked, the Mbox2 mini won't work with Avid.

Well that's simply silly given who owns Digidesign!

I tend to record double system, so I always have some syncing to do, so sync issues do trouble me. Granted, more often than not, I sync by eye- matching the waveform to the visual, which is easy if you use a slate, which I do.

Oh, look at that- the mic pre-amps on the Mbox2 are from Focusrite, that's intriguing.

USB bus power would solve my 4pin firewire issue, that's for sure. And it frees up the wirewire port for the Panasonic DVX100B camcorder.

The onboard sound I'm sure will *function*, I've just never heart laptop audio I thought was any good. And clearly, it won't support balanced inputs/outs, etc.

What makes you switch to recommending the Digidesign Mbox 2 over, say, the M-Audio or Echo boxes though? It doesn't sound like you're impressed with them ("work OK"). Shame they only support two inputs, as well, but if you want more than 2 mic level inputs, you seem to have to jump up to the much (physically) bigger boxes.

UPDATE: According to the Digidesign website, Avid MC3.5 will work with an Mbox2 Mini.

I think I was misunderstood. My preference for PCI soundcards remains Echo and M-Audio. As far as laptop, 3rd party sound hardware goes, where PCI busses aren't available, I can't find anything better than the Digidesign Mbox2's.

Hi Phil

Focusrite Saffire has great sounding preamps. It's a nice unit. The LE is a little cheaper, and BLACK! Woo hoo! My friend has one and he noticed the bump in preamp quality over his Mackie stuff. Of course you can always get a better preamp to go through later, but for general use for TV work this unit is a good bang/buck ratio.

Saffire $349.00
Buy Focusrite Saffire FireWire Audio Interface | Audio Interfaces & Convertors | Audio Interfaces | Musician's Friend (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Focusrite-Saffire-FireWire-Audio-Interface-?sku=245020)

Saffire LE $299.00
Buy Focusrite Saffire LE 6-In/8-Out FireWire Interface | Audio Interfaces & Convertors | Audio Interfaces | Musician's Friend (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Focusrite-Saffire-LE-Firewire-Audio-Interface-?sku=240407)


BTY the MOTU Ultralite is only 70 pounds over your budget (By pounds/dollars conversion).

I would steer clear of USB. You can only record a max of 2 channels at once, and latency is an issue. And for your info, most if not all headphone outs on audio interfaces play whats coming out of the computer/monitors. I found that I needed a little more volume in my headphones, and got a 4 ch $100.00 headphone amp from Presonus "HP4", and found it boosted my signal while allowing for less noise coming through.

Good luck

Chadfish

I think I was misunderstood. As far as laptop, 3rd party sound hardware goes, where PCI busses aren't available, I can't find anything better than the Digidesign Mbox2's.

Ah. I read you as damning with faint praise. Have you had experience of current gen Firewire/USB products from M-Audio/Echo?

What is it they're lacking in their external bus products in comparison with Digidesign, given that you'd prefer their internal bus products? You know, just out of interest :)

So, I seem to have collected here no consensus at all. Can't say I'm surprised, but goodness, this isn't getting any easier as a decision!

Personally, having worked a Pro Tools, Digi 002 at my job, I have to say I am not fond of Digidesign's proprietary bent. The quality is adequate, but the fact that you can't buy an interface and just use it on any computer simply sucks. And I find their prices unnecessarily high. Also Pro Tools is a clunky software, even though they are an industry standard (marketing). AND-They still make you mix down anything you do in real time! Believe me for a half hour project - that ain't too cool. Cubase/Nuendo is where it's at IMHO. I'm sure you can find a Digi unit that works fine for your computer, but there are better and cheaper and more universally usable units out there.

Apparently, Avid doesn't accept firewire input, even the Digidesign firewire won't work. That's the only reason I choose USB. Echo has some PCIExpress audio cards that look interesting, but, then I'll populate my only PCIe/SATA connection, so that won't fly for me.

I agree with Chad, to the extent that Digidesign and Avid are "proprietary". That's gotten them to lose a large part of their marketshare. They have recognized this and are on a path to correct it. In the meantime, to proclaim Protools as "clunky" is a little closed-minded. Like it or not, every major studio and film house is using Protools or Avid. Without those tools, a pro can forget file transfers to the film or sound house. And that's just a fact of life.

to proclaim Protools as "clunky" is a little closed-minded. Like it or not, every major studio and film house is using Protools or Avid. Without those tools, a pro can forget file transfers to the film or sound house. And that's just a fact of life.

Hi Bill

Nuendo is the most advanced post audio app on the market. It's also used in the film industry. Granted, protools is in more places, but it's not the only app for the job. I was referring to the ease of editing/exporting with protools as being clunky. I'm sure many are used to it and it does what it's supposed to, and sounds fine. But just because more people use something, doesn't make it better. Even so, I don't think Phil is doing a motion picture going to film. He just needs to capture/mix a little audio. Cubase LE comes with the MOTU stuff, and for pro use Cubase 5 (500.00) can more than handle any job he is doing most likely. I'm trying to keep things budget minded for Phil too. Nuendo is hardly budget, but Cubase is. If he were on a mac I might suggest Logic Pro8 also for 500.00 as an app. But given the problems I have seen guys have with Digi's proprietary specificity with various machines, it doesn't seem worth the trouble for simple (low track count) projects. I am sure there are people that buy all the right equipment and have zero probs with Digi hard/software. I just have personal preferences, and those are what I make suggestions from.


Cheers

Chad

FAQ for Nuendo:

What are the main post features of Nuendo?
Since Nuendo can import virtually any media delivery format, this allows for seamless integration with many of today's top video editing packages, such as AVID's Media/Film Composer suites (OMF), and Adobe Premiere (Premiere EDL), and Advanced Authoring Format (AAF), as well as AES31 used by such companies as Euphonix. Nuendo's Libraries allows for instant access to sound effects and music heavily required in any post situation. With it's multiple timelines, including 16mm and 35mm film timelines, Nuendo allows you to spot any event to sub-frame accuracy, from either the beginning or end of the event - perfect for synchronizing audio events to picture. The audio can be easily spotted to the video by enabling the edit mode on the Transport menu. As the cursor is moved in the time or audio part is moved on the project window the video will update on the screen frame by frame. Besides the ability to import digital video files, Nuendo includes support for Sony's 9-Pin control, allowing for frame-accurate sync and machine control with many of today's top VTR decks, including Sony's Betacam and DVcam decks.

Nuendo features various surround-sound formats, essential for any post project, and is the only Steinberg application to include support for optional Dolby Digital and DTS surround encoders, not to mention the built-in Dolby ProLogic encoding. Using Nuendo's Networking functions allows for multiple users to access the same media material and Project files on different systems to work on various parts of a project (dialogue editing, SFX editing and music editing) to be later brought together for the final mix. Sample rates of 192kHz on input and 384kHz on output, and up to 32-bit recording offer truly High Definition sound quality!

I work with digital video, how does Nuendo handle this?
Nuendo allows import and playback of the following video file formats:
- MPEG
- AVI
- DV AVI
- Quicktime movies (both .QT and .MOV)
- WMV (PC only),
- WMV Pro (PC only)
- M1V (mpeg1)
- M2V (mpeg2)
- VOB(DVD ripped mpeg2)

Echo Audiofire 4. The Saffires are just too big and too bulky for what you want, and I can't say I loved their preamps. Chad, I respect your opinion, but comparing it to Mackie doesn't mean much. I like Phonic preamps better than those (other than Mackie's higher end Onyx preamps, but most people mean the VLZs when they say Mackie and yes, anything is better than that). Alesis and Phonic stuff is cheap but preamps are too much hiss. MOTU sounds dull and Presonus is probably the worst I've used. I'm finally at an N12 and if you do studio music recording you'd find it a godsend, but if you are just doing simple multitracking, the audiofire does wonders. However, if you only need stereo in and stereo out, the M-audio transit paired with a DMP3 is your best bet!

Hi Chris.

I agree with you on the mackie stuff, but I'm just saying there was an obvious difference, and the Saffire is in his range..

That N12 looks cool. But for 1,200.00 how much money is going into each preamp? I have to say, I wouldn't mind having a cool console that size. I think it's out of our guys range by far. I'm so used to working on the screen that I only need an audio interface to get the sound in the box. On the other hand (literally) I'm developing arthritis in my right ring finger from holding a mouse all day every day. There is just so much cool stuff out there to get!

YouTube - Yamaha N12 / N-12 Promo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXxOEefmavE)

Well, this decision isn't getting any easier :)

No, at the moment, I'm unlikely to have anything to deliver on 35mm film. Online, television and DVD are the targets. 12 channels is far more than I need right now, and I have no way of feeding that many channels anyway. If I found myself on-set with half a dozen radio mics and a couple of booms, I'd look to hiring, since I'd be having to hire all those radios in any case! But four...well, that could be handy. But it seems that I can't get that, I can get two, or 8/10 (in pre-amp terms...that many inputs is available if I forgo the pre-amps).

The laptop (a Dell Studio 17 with various upgrades) is pretty damned heavy, so the Saffires wouldn't be all that much of an extra burden. Chris, when you say you don't like their pre-amps, what do you mean? The transit + DMP3 seems like it would in total, out-bulk the Saffire, though I'd have the option of leaving the DMP3 at home when just needing output. From what I can see, the Transit doesn't have balanced inputs to take from the DMP3- not sure how much this matters for what would be a very short cable run?

Oh, a question- why, unless you're producing a 5.1/7.1 mix, would you need so many outputs? Or is this more a music thing too?

PHil just read as many reviews as you can and make a decision. The motu and saffire stuff is pretty good for the money you want to spend. You aren't going to find better unless you up your budget. So find the one that has the ins and outs you want and go for it. Try not to cheap out.

Good luck!

Chad

The laptop (a Dell Studio 17 with various upgrades) is pretty damned heavy, so the Saffires wouldn't be all that much of an extra burden. Chris, when you say you don't like their pre-amps, what do you mean? The transit + DMP3 seems like it would in total, out-bulk the Saffire, though I'd have the option of leaving the DMP3 at home when just needing output. From what I can see, the Transit doesn't have balanced inputs to take from the DMP3- not sure how much this matters for what would be a very short cable run?

Oh, a question- why, unless you're producing a 5.1/7.1 mix, would you need so many outputs? Or is this more a music thing too?

Their preamps as in, the preamps built into the interface. Anything with a mic in has a mic preamp that is used to boost the signal. They each have tonal qualities and those can make one preamp $50 and another $2000 (but a lot of times price doesn't mean anything other than hype).

Whether or not you used a balanced in only truly matters on long cable runs. I have never had a problem with it because I never run things through patchbays and my DMP3 to transit run is probably no more than 10'-15'. You can look to see the length it gets noticable, but that's usually when you are using a patchbay and a ton of external devices.

Are you asking me why I would need a 5.1 mix on the N12? Well, I don't know why they put that on there either.I got it for a bunch of other reasons music-specific but there is no need for 5.1 when mixing music. I have no clue why they did that... but I guess it's a free added bonus.

I know what pre-amps are, I was after some clarification on what your beef was with those specific pre-amps :) Focusrite seem to get written about in pretty glowing terms on many sites, such as Sound On Sound. I've seen things boasting they could emulate the sound. I have seen a few people mention audible hiss when the gain is really pushed, thought, I'll concede.

I have to admit, that I am starting to lean towards this setup- a fairly inexpensive clean D-A + headphone amp thing (such as that M-Audio Transit or similar, with, say, two outputs), and then a bigger, multi-input device for recording. The way I figure it, when I am recording, I'll have quite a bit more equipment with me anyway, so size and powering is less important. This opens the field to such entrants as the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, which has 8 pre-amped inputs. It also means that when I am just editing, I have a super-lightweight, compact device that can literally fit in my pocket.

These devices proffering a dozen-plus output channels- it must surely be a musician thing. I think it might be the intention to run them through an external mixer, even though this feels very odd to me, taking things back out into the analogue realm, it's the only explanation I can think of.

The speakers on the laptop- well, they're rather poor. I've used the word atrocious before (and yes, that was already allowing for the fact that no laptop speakers are going to be great), but I discovered why they were sounding broken, rather than just poor quality. The cones of the drivers were, at maximum excursion, impinging upon the underside of the grilles! You could see little circles of abrasion in the centre of them. Using a dremel I was able to remove around 0.5mm more of the plastic grille to give the drivers more room to move, and things are a world of difference. Still dreadful, but bearable.

I know what pre-amps are, I was after some clarification on what your beef was with those specific pre-amps :) Focusrite seem to get written about in pretty glowing terms on many sites, such as Sound On Sound. I've seen things boasting they could emulate the sound. I have seen a few people mention audible hiss when the gain is really pushed, thought, I'll concede.


The ones that emulate sound are the wayyy more Focusrite Liquid Saffire. Not the same exact thing. My beef with the Saffire preamps is they were just normal and had some hiss to it. The DMP3 was a little beefier (in the good sense this time :P) and totally clean. Then again, it's my opinion. Sound is very personal.

I don't mean what do Focusrite sell that can do what you might call pre-amp modelling. I mean other manufacturers who have products that can emulate or model Focusrite's pre-amps. By which I take to mean that they, the third parties, feel there is something desirable about Focusrite's sound that they'd like to copy.

Of course, desirable can be "charmingly distorting" or "amusingly hissy"...sometimes people actively seek out distortion as a way to add character. And I don't want that really.

I've heard rumours/anecdotes that the pres in the Pro 40 are better.
Focusrite Audio Engineering | US Site | Products | Saffire | Saffire PRO 40 (http://www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire_pro_40/)

I guess I have to try harder to find a local retailer and give them a damn listen- as you say, it's a personal thing.

I don't mean what do Focusrite sell that can do what you might call pre-amp modelling. I mean other manufacturers who have products that can emulate or model Focusrite's pre-amps. By which I take to mean that they, the third parties, feel there is something desirable about Focusrite's sound that they'd like to copy.

I've never heard of a copy of the Focusrite Greens that are in the Saffire. The Reds are their big preamps, but their greens are what they put in there and it isn't why people are copying.