I'm looking for an on-camera microphone that will improve the sound quality for my low end camcorder, (trv38). I've narrowed it down to two microphones, the Azden SGM-X shotgun microphone, or the Sony ECM-Z37C shotgun microphone. Which one do you guys recommend, or do you recommend something different?

Tyrone

I'd go to a Sony store and try that shotgun out compared to the Sony MS908/907 and the Azden if you can. Check how much sound the shotgun rejects and the sound quality of it on headphones. I'd definitely try a mic before buying it, since some Sony mics suck even more than the on-board camera mic.

Yeah, I wish I could test these mics, but there aren't any Sony stores around here. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with these mics?

Tyrone

I would just get the Sony. I had a Sony mic and it worked well..., until it broke. :-((

Samson has a very nice C02 - Pencil Condenser which sounds very well.
They are very cheap, sold as stereopair; have a little less detail as much more expensive mics, but sound great.
I heard them in a shop. They will not disappoint you: great value for the money.

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1664&brandID=2

a first soundsample is on
http://www1.keyboards.de/magazine/m1203/312130wp.html

Frank, which Sony did you have?

I've used a 930C stereo mic from Sony before and that was a super lemon. Worse than the on-board mic. I've listened a little bit to the MS908 (or 907), and that mic sounds pretty decent. For ambient sound it's a great mic. It should be a good replacement for the on-board camcorder mic.

I wouldn't buy the Sony shotgun unless you get to listen to it first, or know from someone who has. There are a number of issues you can run into:
A- It could sound bad.
B- It might pick up a lot of handling and wind noise.
C- You may not like its off-axis response. Depending on what you do this can be ok (i.e. you're not is a reverberant room, your mic is pointed at what you want). Even really expensive shotguns don't have good off-axis response.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Roovers : Samson has a very nice C02 - Pencil Condenser which sounds very well.
They are very cheap, sold as stereopair; have a little less detail as much more expensive mics, but sound great.
I heard them in a shop. They will not disappoint you: great value for the money.
-->>>

Jan, could you tell us a little more about the Samson C02 mics? Can these mics pick up decent sound at a substantial distance from the camera?

I have started a page with some private experiences (http://www.jtv.be/JTV/info/sound/sound.html) with microphones.
So nothing profesional but my first jump into this world.

There you will find another sample with the Samson C02.

I was surprised about its quality. It gives less depth as a Sennheiser or a Neumannn of course, but as you will hear, the sound is very very acceptable not to say very good.

Regarding its price and to my opinion it is worth to have it. You will not go wrong with it. It is worth the money

Another tip is to get the Sennheiser E664 as you will see on the page. It is cheaper as the ME64/K6 and exactly the same mic.
I have to go to Germany for that, because thay are not sold in the Netherlands.:-( They are sold for € 259,-here K6/ME64 is sold for € 414,-

Thanks for the input guys, but I'm settling on the Sennheiser MKE300.

Tyrone

Glenn, the Z37C is a totally different mic.

Glen
What camera and mic do you ownright now?

This is embarassing...
I have a Samsung SCD55 mini-DV camera that's mostly crappy. The only task it is good at is shooting stop motion (even then it's not that good). It has an incredibly bad on-board microphone and no shoe mount. At least the camera can read other people's mini-DV footage (but with some problems :/).

Well at least I'll be able to use some decent gear next year at Ryerson. First year is mostly audio. We can borrow $2000 Tascam portable DAT recorders and then capture recordings into a Soundblaster card via analog...

So glenn you would be 17 now right? Do you live in toronto, or nearby?

My Film TA said that York has a good film making class, have you looked into applying there?

I had always thought Ryerson to be the best tech school.

So glenn you would be 17 now right? Do you live in toronto, or nearby?

My Film TA said that York has a good film making class, have you looked into applying there?
No, I'm 18 right now. Live in Toronto (50 minute commute).

I considered York film studies, but didn't get in and Ryerson was my first choice anyways. York seems to be a lot more theoretical- you actually learn about Eisenstein and film history there.

Some of the Ryerson facilities/equipment is a bit questionable but I figure you don't need to be a quality whore to learn as much as you can, as long as the stuff works pretty well. Sometimes the equipment leaves something to be desired. Recording foley without a foley studio and with dynamic mics (ok preamps on the Tascam) will have too much noise in some situations.

I'm pretty sure I'm learning more technical stuff reading Jay's books than in a classroom, but I get to do hands on things and receive feedback, work in groups, learn about creative aspects and other things which you may not get studying by yourself or by interning/volunteering.

Although I came to Western for philosophy as a prep for law, I was looking forward to taking some film classes. I am taking Intro Film Studies right now and it is theory mostly. We do however learn about cinematography, and I have learned a bunch about film making...rules for shooting and whatnot but it is a far cry from the hands on stuff you are talking about. Next year i'm taking a class on documentaries and maybe film asthetics but that is as close as Western gets.

I think reading up on your own will teach you a hell of a lot more than any university classroom. My film TA is a graduate in film studies yet knows NOTHING about DV. It's all theory, which I think is complete BULL. We had a whole class on hte "nightmare vagina" in Alien and sexual refrences throughout. Ugh. My advice is to stay away from theory as much as you can! Don't let it taint your virgin filmmaker mind!

Our university has a film festival every year and next year I really want to make a good submission. Maybe this is something Glenn would understand more than the rest of your older guys out there but the more gear you carry around, the more sophisticated you look, the more singled out and watched you feel. My buddy and I did a short in the library one day when we were bored and boy did we feel stupid! "It's for film class" we told them but I don't think most bought it...Now if I had a tripod in there, with a boom pole and junk oh boy i'd have been laughed out of there! How do you guys overcome this awkwardness?

So glenn what are you planning on doing with a degree from ryerson? anything specific?

Good luck...sorry for getting so OT!
Rob

"Maybe this is something Glenn would understand more than the rest of your older guys out there but the more gear you carry around, the more sophisticated you look, the more singled out and watched you feel."

Rob
I really want you to think about that statement.

A young guy knows more than an older guy even though the old fart lived throught that experience and countless others? Give yourself a (playful) slap on the noggin.

The older you get the smarter people older than you become. When i was 16 my dad was the Village Idiot, by the time I hit 30, he really improved himself, to the point of absolute, bloody brilliance.

To answer your question. Proffesional gear usually impresses people at all levels. Somepeople are immature in that they react with jealousy and ridicule others.

Sure you feel on the spot. Pro gear has a high expectation attached to it. If you have not so nice gear , you have an excuse for not doing so well.

When I show up with my Marzpak on and the 4x4 matte box mounted, I feel like a 3 eyed nerd. I usually forget about that as soon as I start working. Good gear says that YOU MEAN BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!

Adding to what beas said...when I show up on a shoot and someone is paying me to make their idea come to life, I am pretty emberassed if I don't have the tools I need to make that happen. Our clients understand they aren't paying for Digibeta, but they do expect me to have mics, a tripod, a monitor, probably a vectorscope, a chip chart, a cart load of stands and c-clamps. It's not embarrassing to show up with all that stuff, it's pride in my client's product. It seems you would have the same pride in your own concepts, and if the gear is available to you use it.

You will always be watched, people are fascinated by what we do. If you look like you know what you're doing, they will watch longer.

You guys totally missed what I meant.
When I appealed to Glenn and his age, I was speaking of the overly critical teenage eyes, the peer pressure, etc.

A young guy knows more than an older guy even though the old fart lived throught that experience and countless others? Give yourself a (playful) slap on the noggin.

Have you forgotten your highschool years? Can you not remember the superficial jocks, preppies, geeks, cheerleaders, car buffs and so on?

The older people get, the less judgemental they become and the less they feel the need to single people out for being different. I will probably be slapped with a your too young to be speaking of this, but in two days I will be twenty and I am very in touch with my age group's thinking.

I was called the "cool nerd" because I still liked the things "cool people" liked, but I had my computer stuff there too...like a big secret. I remember getting in a fight once with a guy in gym class and was told "why don't you go home and play half-life" (a popular computer game). I know exactly what people my age and under think of the technically educated and it isn't as nice and pretty as you guys would like to believe. Being knowledgable about computers is something that definately threatened my reputation and stance among my peers in highschool. I was able to overcome this and my smarts were accepted and appreciated but ONLY after people saw that I was a "normal" person FIRST and a "geek" second.

Being at university isn't as equalizing as you all may think. I KNOW for a fact that if I voluteered for TV Western (this isn't the reason I don't...I have no time for it), it would say something about me as a person and my values. Probably a computer nerd, probably no friends, probably stays in on weekends to do extra homework...yada yada. All not true, but that IS the common way of thinking.

Rob

Glenn, I can't recall which Sony mic I had. It was long ago. I also had another non-Sony mic, which broke as well. I have actually just purchased another mic, an Apex 191. However, I have not tried it yet because I have no way of hooking it up. It was $99.98 Canadian + 14.5% GST/PST.

Hey...I play counter-strike. But I guess I get what your saying. Or realize that I can't get what your saying; hmmmm.

We had a whole class on hte "nightmare vagina" in Alien and sexual refrences throughout. Ugh. My advice is to stay away from theory as much as you can! Don't let it taint your virgin filmmaker mind!
That sounds like some sort of psychoanalysis- which in my opinion is usually bull. The claims made aren't very useful if you can't prove via some test that it's more likely than the opposite (in this case, that there is no "nightmare vagina" in Alien).

But I think film theory classes can be of some value, as long as it doesn't involve bull like that. Example:
Around 1919, Kuleshov began a series of editing experiments which led to a startling discovery (in what has become known as the "Mozhukhin Experiment"). In separate sequences, shots of various objects (a bowl of soup, a smiling child, and a dead body), were juxtaposed against identical archive clips of a famous actor (Ivan Mozhukhin). The audience read a different meaning into Mozhukhin's expression with each combination. This discovery demonstrated the power of editing to alter the perception of the subject, in this case, the actor's emotions and thoughts. The experiment also, implicitly, advanced the verisimilar acting style as the ideal for film; purportedly, Mozhukin was praised by the audience for his subtle acting abilities.
Things like that have a certain level of truth (you can test it with the scientific method) and has real world applications (you can control the meaning of the film by manipulating the choice and order of the clips you use).

Our university has a film festival every year and next year I really want to make a good submission. Maybe this is something Glenn would understand more than the rest of your older guys out there but the more gear you carry around, the more sophisticated you look, the more singled out and watched you feel. My buddy and I did a short in the library one day when we were bored and boy did we feel stupid! "It's for film class" we told them but I don't think most bought it...Now if I had a tripod in there, with a boom pole and junk oh boy i'd have been laughed out of there! How do you guys overcome this awkwardness?

Just do it? If you don't look guilty and look like you know what you're doing, you should be able to "get away" with filming in a library. Act like filming in a library is a legitimate activity, or else you'll look like a bunch of hooligans messing around with a camera.

If you needed to do real shooting in a library (with lighting and everything), then it's *not* a good idea to just do it. You need permission and insurance (in case your lighting makes the books catch on fire or whatever).

How do you avoid awkwardness? IMO awkwardness exists only in your head. Just go out and shoot stuff. Look like you know what you're doing (so other people are less likely to question you, which will make you even feel more awkward). However, know the rules, think about negative consequences if you shoot something, and don't do anything wrong. You may need shooting permits, prisons will not tolerate you filming their building, and some people may get angry if you point a camera at them. If you look like you know what you're doing you can get away with illegal things, but that doesn't mean you should do it.

So glenn what are you planning on doing with a degree from ryerson? anything specific?
I think I'm going to get into video editing afterwards. I don't think the letter after my name helps me out much in getting a job, although the education + connections from professors would. A degree might be useful if I ever want to teach. In other lines of video/film work a degree might make it more likely you'll be promoted.

Rob,

I know exactly what you are saying and i stand by my feeling that most of the people that will comment in a negative way are jealous. I've got news for you, these people are still "knobs" in middle age.

I agree that it does take fortitude to work around a younger group.

Bryan,

I know exactly what you are saying and I stand by my feeling that this is an audio forum for discussing microphones and other audio-related topics. I've got news for you, we're going to knock off the thread hijacking and get back on track with the proper subject matter.

I agree that it does take fortitude to stay focused on discussing microphone recommendations, which is supposed to be the topic of this thread.