I'm just a hobbyist but this is what I believe to be true.
Yes, the 24p is in a 60i wrapper. That becomes *unwrapped* when you bring it into Vegas Pro 8.0c. with 24p PROJECT PROPERTIES.

This quote from Videomaker ( Camcorder Review: Sony HDR-FX1000 HDV Camcorder (http://www.videomaker.com/article/14037/?refresh=0) ) sums it up nicely.
The FX1000 also provides a 1080/24p and 1080/30p Progressive Scan mode that enables nice looking film-like video. You can now secure HDV captures onto tape by way of a 2:3 pull-down, which records to tape at 60i. This divides each frame into two fields, which then reverts to its original state as you bring it into an editing program.

It's as simple as that. Render it out to DVD or for the web with 24p settings and you're good to go.

This 24p business in a 60i wrapper seems to be the most misunderstood concept on this board. Patient posts by Douglas Spotted Eagle and a few other knowledgeable people have helped me tremendously. And the FX1000 is easy peasy when compared with the Canon HV20 with respect to pulldown removal. Man, it was tons more involved than what I'm doing now with the FX1000.

I'll do my best to field your questions but keep in mind that I'm no expert.

Do you have a link to DSE's take on this?

Thanks!

The Advanced Search here would be easy enough to use to find specific posts by D.S.E and Barry Green respectively.

I now understand the confusion.

Vegas will handle pulldown just fine for DV, but NOT HDV.

If you import 24p footage from a Canon XH-A1 or Z5U, you can edit 24p footage. FX1000, HV20 24p footage will be edited as 60i. If on a 24p timeline it will look pretty good, but it won't have that pristine clean look that a pure 24p workflow will give you. I tried this with some hv20 24p footage and there is a double of the image here and there.

If 24p is your thing, I'd lean towards Z5Us,XH-A1s and HV40s.

You are correct, 24p footage from the FX1000 comes into Vegas as 60i, Vegas doesn't covert it. This is not as good as "true" 24p, at least that is my understanding. The Z5 has the real deal, the FX1000 doesn't.

Then how do you two account for there being 24 frames for every second of footage on my timeline?
Btw, the HV20 footage needed to have the pulldown removed BEFORE you brought it to the timeline; either using Cineform or something else. Canon didn't use FLAGS on the extra frames (on the HV20) that Vegas NEEDS to see for it to remove.

I could be wrong but my understanding of this issue is as follows:

Barron, the answer to your question: (again, unless I'm mistaken) Because no matter what kind of footage you place on the timeline, if your use the 24FPS setting in project properties it will show as 24fps at the bottom of the preview window.

I just did it. I opened a project with 60i footage, changed the project properties to 24, and it shows up as 24 fps. Changing the project properties to 24fps in Vegas does not convert 60i footage to 24p. It will remain what it is: 60i, because that is what is coming out of the camera.

Vegas does not do pulldown removal, unfortunately.

You can still edit the footage on the timeline as is, but you should not use the 24fps properties, as that is not what you have.

If you edit it as 60i, which is what it is, it will still have a 24p look, but choppier than if you had performed pulldown removal.

If I'm wrong, and I'd be glad if I was, someone please correct me.
If you do not want to do pulldown removal, the only option we have is to buy a camera with true 24p.

I just read in an article that if the video is destined for DVD video and to be played on a televison, it is not necessary to do pulldown removal. Pulldown removal is said to be necessary only for delivery for other types of delivery. So leave your project at 60i, and you will be fine, unless I'm wrong.

Eugenia’s Rants and Thoughts Blog Archive Canon HV20 24p Pulldown (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24p-pulldown/)

I've read that article before Jeff and didn't remember that part, interesting.

OK, after reading the wikepedia artilcle on 24p, 24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#Conversion_of_24p_to_NTSC-based_frame.2Ffield_rates)

it seems clear that pulldown removal of the FX1000 is not necessary if your final deliver is a DVD, except it would make for smoother editing.

The 24fps footage shot with the FX1000 in the 60i wrapper actually is in some ways ideal, because if the final product is going to DVD anyway, it has to be 60i for the DVD.

So Barron, if you edit your footage as 60i, render it as 60i, it will retain the 24fps characteristics, but in the 60i format that it needs to be.

You would not change the project properties to 24fps because it is still 60i.

I would guess the same is true of 30p footage as well, but I don't know.

This is a very good thread explaining 24 and 30p.

30p in final cut pro: is it worth it? : Apple Final Cut Pro (http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/949009)

I'll look for more quotes but let's start with these from this thread,
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happens-vegas/89859-vegas-pulldown-removal-hdv.html

I've started a new thread in the Vegas forum where this pulldown removal topic belongs.

At this point, a couple of things are clear to me, but as always I could be wrong.

1. FX1000 24p is in a 60i wrapper. (that much is agreed upon, as it should be since that is what the FX1000 manual states).

2. If your final destination is TV you do NOT want to do pulldown removal, since it needs to be 29fps for TV anyway. So for those using 24p or 30p settings on the camera, the footage is 60i, and should be treated that way. The 24p attibutes are still in there, but they are simply packaged in a 29fps format.

Anyway, I am anxious to read any responses may appear in the Vegas forum on this topic.

Well Barron, I found an article (link below) by DSE in which he says that Vegas does do pulldown removal automatically if you change the project properties to 24p.

So if DSE is correct, as he likely is, then you are correct and I was wrong.

The thing is we had a long thread regarding this and no one brought this out, we were all talking about having to use neoscene, etc.

That leaves the question of workflow, which DSE does go into in the article. If you are going to shoot 24p I recommend you check it out if you haven't seen it. The section about rendering to DVD is near the bottom.

In the end the discussion is somewhat pointless for me personally, but I am learning a few things.

As a videographer for weddings and small businesses, 24p is but a distraction to me. 30p has much promise, but even that is relatively unimportant.

Video shot in 60i offers the most flexibility in post, and is much more forgiving when shooting. The fact that I'm now using three cameras with widescreen sensors is the most important thing to me on the technical side.

The story being told is what my customers are looking for. The most expensive videographer in this area, that I know of, uses crap cameras that are terrible in low light, but their shooting and editing really grab the customers.

I must say, however, that I have learned a lot from Douglas' article regarding workflow for 24p, and I thank you for your posts.

Using Sony Vegas with the HVR-V1U camcorder and 24p (http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/articles/Vegas_and_the_Sony_V1U_camcorder.htm)

So it *seems* like the following is true...

1. 24p in 60i wrapper will not allow for a pure 24p editing experience (don't believe me? try it with a preview window at Best->Full frame)
2. 24p in 60i will however render to a true 24p delivery mechanism.
3. Therefore, the main benefit of true 24p (i.e. like the Z5U, XHA1, V1U's 24scA?) is that you are able to get a true 24p *editing* workflow, but the final 24p rendered product should be the same (or if different, the difference would be imperceptable).

I will test this out tonight now that my FX1000 has arrived. I'll pit its 60i, and 24p against the XHA1's 24F.

Results to be reported by end of week.

-C

My own conclusion??? If you're going to deliver 24p and have an FX1000, do NOT shoot 24pScan unless you're going to remove pulldown.

Deliver 24p - shoot in???? on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/4293796)

enjoy.

What render template did you use? Vimeo usually has a little HD icon on the right if it's HD. Below is a screenshot of your Vimeo clip and one that I've uploaded.

And, I'm not really understanding your comment/recommendation. I shoot 24p and render it out to YouTubeHD or Vimeo selecting the proper project properties (in Vegas) and appropriate render settings. Vegas does it all. I don't do anything specific or *special* to remove pulldown. As I've said countless times now, the combination of the FX1000 and Vegas Pro 8.0c makes 24p delivery effortless.
Btw Cesar, the biggest reason for shooting 24p is to get the film cadence. You have to couple that with a 1/48 shutter, not 1/60 that's shown on your Vimeo clip.

I had already uploaded an HD file this week, so I'm "maxed out" with my free vimeo account.

The difference among the clips is definitely more visible in HD on a bigger screen.

It is totally possible that you would shoot 24fps at a higher shutter than 1/24 or 1/48. I wanted to use a shutter of 1/60 so that all modes and cameras could use the same shutter. You would still have 24 frames per second, but each frame was exposed for 1/60 second.

Dragging the shutter will only cause more motion blur regardless of the camera.

You will note that *if* Vegas removed pulldown from the 24pScan (FX1000) clip, it would look the same as the 24F (XHA1) clip. It does not. Shooting 60i on the FX1000 and then letting Vegas render a 24p clip, actually generates an image that is much closer. Pause the image during the 24pScan clip and you can see that the crisp clean images are there just "doubled."

I'm sure that running the 24pScan through Cineform's converter would get me a clip that looks like the 24F stuff. Right now I don't want to think about adding more processing to the workflow. If I'm going to do that, I might as well get an HMC-150 and say good-bye to tape and drop outs.

Everything was placed on an HDV 24p timeline, set up just the way DSE specifies.

I rendered using this template
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/images/mainconcept.png

The only difference is that since the test is a 24p deliverable, I set the framerate to 24.

Regarding other differences between the XH-A1 and the FX-1000. The FX1000 puts out a sharper, less noisy image (both were at 12db gain), and has better ergonomics. When delivering 24p, the Canon puts out a crisper image of objects in motion. Dragging the shutter to 1/48 on the Canon would have likely made an image closer to the FX-1000's 60i->24p.

Yes, I'm with you on the Vimeo "max out". :(
Now you have me counting frames Cesar. There seems to be *doubles* in my 24p timeline but when I render to the settings pictured below, there are NO DOUBLE FRAMES. I forget which template I modified but it's all there for you to duplicate if you wish.

same project settings?

How do you render for DVD? Blu-ray?

I rendered to an MP4 file ...WMV render must be removing pulldown then.

I can tell you taht rendering to DVD 24p template and 60i template made no difference.

I've only rendered to dvd. Here are the Project properties and render settings to dvd.

Barron,

You're delivering 60i, so that's why your DVDs look ok. I assume that with a good enough DVD player, or TV, it can detect the pulldown and remove it on the fly (even if there aren't any flags encoded).

However, if you wanted to deliver a true 24p DVD, you will likely get images that look like the sample I put up on vimeo...that's what I get anyway.

I like delivering 24p 1080p. It would seem that in order to do that I should shoot in 60i on my FX1000. If anyone has another way (that doesn't involve software other than vegas), please do tell.

later.
-Cesar

Cesar
You're confusing me. TV is interlaced, the computer display is not. My 24p DVDs look great on the television. My 24p progressive uploads to Vimeo and YouTube viewed with a computer monitor also look wonderful.
What am I doing that isn't "true"?

What am I doing that isn't "true"?

I just guessing here, but I would say 29.970 - interlaced.

OK, I rendered the 24pScan to 60i DVD and it played perfectly. My LCD tv removed pulldown just fine, so did the DVD player (DVD player has progressive switch).

Haven't tried Blu-Ray since I don't have an RW (should definitely get one), but I assume it works the same way.

Still doesn't feel right to make a 60i file. May end up buying neoScene....we'll see.

Barron,

I'll keep the wmv creation for posting to web if I use 24pScan. It seems like that gets converted correctly whereas the mp4 doesn't. It could also be that vimeo's converter didn't detect pulldown in the first few frames given that I started with true 24p.

Going back to the FX1000 issue of putting its 24p through 2:3 pulldown as it records it as 60i, there's an important issue that hasn't been focused on yet.

The FX1000 is positioned by Sony purposely to NOT encode the 2:3 pulldown phasing flag information. Otherwise, it would probably compete too closely with its professional big brother, the HVR-Z5U which offers several flavors of 24p recording in HDV.

Looking at the fine print on the HVR-Z5U technical brochure, under the section about recording 24p HDV, you'll see it has two flavors of what Sony calls "24p Scan". Very tricky. Flavor #1 is the "24" sub setting of "24p Scan". This is what the FX1000 is doing. In this mode, there are no flags about where the 2:3 cadence (phasing) information is in the 60i signal.

Whereas, flavor #2 is the "24A" sub setting of "24p Scan". Wow . . . , NOW it says that the 2:3 cadence flag information is stored in the mpeg stream to tell an NLE where the 2:3 timing is so that the NLE can return the video back to a true 24p clip.

So that's the deal!

With the FX1000, since there's no flag info, you'll need to use an application that allows you to guess at the 2:3 pulldown timing on the 60i 2:3 pulldown video in order to restore the video to have true 24p progessive frames.

Two options seem to be available. I have Adobe After Effects CS4 -- it has an "Interpret Footage" dialogue which allows you to try various guesses at the cadence (some call it the "phase") of the pulldown. You try different settings until you get a sharp image where there is significant horizontal motion on screen.

The other has been mentioned before, and that is to use CineForm Neo Scene to do it before importing into your NLE.

Vegas, Premiere, etc -- the various NLE's won't know how to do reverse pulldown on the FX1000, because Sony doesn't give them the flags to know how to do it. After Effects is sophisticated enough to allow guessing at the cadence. Cineform Neo Scene provides a similarly flexible tool.

Of course, the PMW-EX1, or the HVR-Z5U offer the advanced "24p Scan, type 24A" for HDV resolutions with the cadence flags inserted so that Vegas, Premiere and others can do the reverse pulldown directly.

The pro cameras, like PMW-EX1 and HVR-Z5U also offer a direct mode for progressive recording, so that in capture, the video clips are already natively at 24p progressive (no pulldown).

You got it Doug!

If you're looking to do pure 24p production go with the Canon XH-A1. That's real bang for the buck.

So I tried something else....

ignore the audio... in fact just mute it. I recycled audio and it misleads the actual picture

24p Test - No resampling of 24pScan (FX1000) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/4569446)

The big difference in this test is that I selected "Disable Resample" on the FX1000 24pScan clip. I also did some color correction to try to match up the FX1000 to the XHA1.

Obviously the true 60i clip was resampled. I wish I had tried it at the time, but my guess is that this (resampled 60i) looks close to what a 24p clip would look if shot at 1/48 or 1/24 shutter.

All clips were placed on a 24p timeline (selected HDV 24p template). Interpolate was selected in project properties.

Rendered to 24p MP4.

Curious if you notice a difference or not. If so, which one is more pleasing to the eye?