Just acquired a 501 head from B&H, intending to use it with VX2000 & TRV900 type cameras.

If the head is left stationary for more than 5-10 minutes or so, the pan movement has a small initial "stick" to it, which of course is unacceptable -- it creates a tiny bit of jerk in the video.

After the head "breaks free" of this initial stick, the pan movement remains very smooth (until it sits stationary for 5-10 minutes).

Tilt is always smooth and doesn't stick.

Do I have a defective head, or is this initial "pan stickiness" inherent in the 501 head?

And if this is an inherent design flaw in the 501, would a Manfrotto 503 head or Gitzo 2380 necessarily be free of this problem?

TIA

I have a couple of 501 heads that I've been using for a couple of years and haven't noticed this. Have you tried loosening the drag on the pan by just a little. It may help.
As for the 503, I have one of those also and frankly there is quite a difference in the 2 heads but again, I've not noticed any real problem with the 501's.
Sorry I couldn't be more help,
Don

<<<-- Originally posted by Don Bloom : Have you tried loosening the drag on the pan by just a little. It may help.
As for the 503, I have one of those also and frankly there is quite a difference in the 2 heads but again, I've not noticed any real problem with the 501's-->>>

Yes, I've played around with the Pan adjust knob, but it doesn't affect the "initial" stick, only the "drag force" once the Pan movement gets going.

If this 501 is indeed defective, am wondering whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to the 503? (I have 3 days to go on my return/exchange privelege).

I did search threads for 501 & 503, most seem to feel the 503 is "better" but they didn't always get specific.

Don,
since you have both 501 & 503 heads, what's your opinion? How would you compare them, for use on a lightweight camera ?(TRV900 & VX2000).

Well, I use them with 150's and yes the 503 has a better feel but I like the 501's about as much. I keep one on my monopod, one on 1 set of 3046 legs and the 503 on another set of 3046 legs. I also have a 3063 head on another set of 3046's. either head will certainly work woth the 900/2000 it's a matter of which you like the performance of. I like both just like the 503 a little better. Pan and tilt is smoother but you know it's hard to describe as its a feeling in my hands, I know it sounds silly but it really is. Just like some people feel better in a Mercedes instead of a Jaguar. I am able to use the 501's the same as the 503- but I do notice the difference when panning and tilting.
Sorry I can't be more specific than that.
Don

Tom,

Same problem with my 501 that I got for Christmas. I don't think it is defective. It's just not a true fluid head. I've been breaking mine loose before the pan shot and it seems to do ok. I initially wanted the 503 but couldn't afford it. I think I'll learn how to use the 3221 legs and 501 for a couple of months and if I get used to it fine. If not I'll sell the head then try the 503.

Regards,

Mark

What you are experiencing is called, 'Stiction' and is characteristic of two surfaces separated by a lubricant when they start to move. It is a real problem in the machine tool industry.

True fluid heads don't have this problem because they don't use two rubbing surfaces separated by a lubricant to smooth the action.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : What you are experiencing is called, 'Stiction' -->>>

yes, I've heard amateur telescope makers (who sometimes make their own sliding "dobsonian" mounts) refer to the same problem, and they end up experimenting with dissimilar materials to reduce "stiction".

From my college physics classes I still recall that "static" and "dynamic" coefficients of friction are different, with static nearly always larger, leading to this "stiction" effect.

Seems I have to resign myself to a bit of stiction, as I cannot justify the $$ of a true fluid head for my amateur needs.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Herman :
Seems I have to resign myself to a bit of stiction ... -->>>

YET, the tilt movement of the 501 head is fine, no perceptible stiction. go figure ???

Possibly because the drag element in the Tilt does not bear the weight of the camera as the pan drag element almost certainly does.

I've never owned a 501, but there may also be a counterforce spring in the head that continuously helps to overcome any stiction in the tilt axis.

I have a 501. It does not have a counterbalance spring, unlike the 503, which does. But this spring does explain why the 503 feels better, at least in tilt.

On my head, I seem to feel more stiction on the tilt than the pan so I try to start my movement with a pan first then introduce in some tilt to mask some of the stiction since the frame is already moving.

I decided to return the 501 head to B&H and upgrade to the Bogen 503 head ... I will let everyone know how that turns out.

It may still have some "stiction" but nearly everyone who has compared the two seems to prefer the "feel" of the 503.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Herman : I decided to return the 501 head to B&H and upgrade to the Bogen 503 head -->>>

Received the 503, and preliminary observations: No "stiction" in tilt or pan! Generally feels a bit a smoother than the 501. (It's a US$112 increase in kit price, from B&H).

Outwardly, main difference of the 503 is:
-- the tilt counterbalance springs.
-- fancy, telescoping handle (with some kind of compressed gas spring).
-- friction tilt/pan controls seem more finely adjustable.

Due to the counterbalancing springs, a lightweight TRV900 camera has to be placed nearly all the way forward in the slide, to properly balance. The counterbalance springs are not user-adjustable.

Would all 503's necessarily be free of "stiction" ? Don't know. Had I known about stiction in the beginning, I probably would have paid a bit more and bought local retail ... then could have tried out various heads and saved the hassle of back-and-forth shipping.

Thank you for your follow-up report, Tom. I'm sure this will be of great value to the many folks who consider the popular Bogen/Manfrotto 501 and 503 heads.

i was talking to a fellow at Lorne Lapham Sales & Rentals here in vancouver and he said that he had heard about some stiction on the 501 heads he sold last year, but the problem seems to be solved. He also said, from talking to the manfrotto repdirectly, that the only difference between the construction of the 501 and the 503 is the counterbalance spring and the telescoping pan handle. He said because of the counterbalance spring the 503 is much better suited to a fully loaded xl1s then a pd150, dvx or something even smaller; claiming that the smaller cams weren't heavy enough to keep the head in a tilted down position.

I had this problem with my 501 head, and happened to be at B&H several months ago when a Manfrotto rep was there. The rep said that sometimes a set screw that attaches the head to the legs may interfere with the movement of the head. When I got home, I removed the head and saw that this was the case. It's just a matter of attaching the head carefully. The problem went away.
The rep also said that if this didn't work, I could call Manfrotto support and get a repair estimate. Of course, I didn't need to do this.
Hope this info is helpful to someone.

More info -- Even though I'm in possession of the 503 head I upgraded to, from B&H, I opted to check out a 501 head one more time.

A nearby retailer had a 501 in stock. We set it up on a tripod head, and I let it sit for 5-6 minutes.

>>> It had "stiction" on pan; tilt was OK. Similar to the 1st 501 I tried.

Judging from the box condition, I suspect this 2nd 501 was older stock. Tavis Shaver had reported the stiction "may" be solved on newer 501's. But my 1st 501 from B&H "looked" fairly recent, I suspect their inventory turns over quite rapidly.

So I will remain with the 503 head from B&H, it's smooth.

As Tavis also commented, the counterbalance spring in the 503 nearly overpowers light cameras. I can maintain neutral horizontal w/ my TRV900 cam, but yes, if I want to maintain a tilt of more than 10-20º or so, I need to lock it down. I guess I'd rather do this, then fight the panning stiction in a 501.

For many people, much of the time, it's possible the stiction may be acceptable. But I find that for some of my shooting (eg, at music recitals), I may leave the stationary camera shooting for 15 minutes at a time to capture raw footage, followed by a pan if the pianist gets up & starts moving around. I don't always have a chance to "wiggle" the head, before starting a pan. Or at least, I don't want to have to think about it.

>Tilt is always smooth and doesn't stick.

Tom, I don't have any trouble with pan stickiness, but I have a similar problem when it comes to tilt. I've tried just about all of
the settings on the tilt adjustment, but no go. I suppose I'll just have to extend the handle . Bummer.

I've only gotten light use out of my 503 head (too busy at my "real" job!), my previous comments still hold true about the 503.

Probably will never truly know whether I got lucky on the 503, or very unlucky with the 501.

But definitely, one should not use the 503 head on a camera lighter than a TRV900 category.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Herman :
But definitely, one should not use the 503 head on a camera lighter than a TRV900 category. -->>>

I have a Sony TRV38 and am looking for a quality head. Been thinking about a 503 until I saw your message here, Tom. Are you saying that the head would not stay tilted to a set angle due to the camera's light weight? And if so, what would you suggest as a head for this camera?

Thanks,
Allen

Allen,

the 503 has a built-in spring for the tilt, whose function is to restore tilt back to a (more-or-less) neutral horizontal position.

I've noticed with no camera installed, and with the handle pointing in a typical rear position, the unloaded head tends to tilt up, by maybe 10-20 degrees.

When I install the TRV900, I have to slide the quick-release plate all the way forward, so that the weight of camera counterbalances the force of spring & handle. Then, the camera/head assembly rests in a neutral horizontal position, and tilts/pans from this position are natural and smooth.

With a lighter camera, the head is going to naturally tend toward an upward tilt. Therefore, the tilt movement would have to be locked in place, for the camera to point horizontal.

That's fine as long as you always stay statically pointing horizontal. But if you tried to tape/video an intentional smooth tilt motion, the moment you unlocked the tilt it would tend to jerk upward. In principle, you could hold the handle firmly to prevent the upward jerk, but in practice it's very tricky to prevent the slight jerk.

alternatively, if you had planned a tilt motion in the scene, and if the tape stopped rolling before the tilt, you could begin the scene shoot with tilt unlocked and use the handle to control the tilt throughout the scene. But clearly that's inconvenient and annoying.

Otherwise the pan/tilt movements are smooth even with a light camera (or no camera at all!). it's just that the head won't automatically rest in a level horizontal..

Unfortunately I don't have any other specific recommendations based on first hand experience. Prior to deciding on the 503 head, I considered evaluating the Gitzo G2380 head ( also distributed by Bogen, http://www.bogenimaging.us/ ).

But since no nearby retailers stocked the Gitzo, I had gotten tired of the back and forth shipping (and freight charges) to BH photo, so I went with the 503, which had several favorable writeups.

I love my Gitzo ball-head for 35mm SLR, it's very smooth and well engineered, so I'd be very interested in how well the G2380 video head works ...

I'm on a limited budget, but am looking for a good tripod system for my GL2. Originally I was going to buy the bogen 3001/501 combo at B&H for $222, but from what i hear it may be worth the extra cash to buy the 503.

I will be using this tripod for weddings, nature video, and sports/marching band video. Will the 3001/501 combo be good enough for all of this? Is the 503 necessary?

Also, with either the 501 or the 503, will the 3001 tripod legs be a decent buy? I know there are more sturdy options but I also wanted one that is somewhat lightweight so i can carry it around easily.

Any thoughts are welcome. I'll also consider a different brand of tripod/head if someone has a good suggestion.

Thanks for the help!

I purchased my 501 head and 3221 legs from B&H about 3 months ago. At first there was some head sticking. Now it works fine. It might have neededjust to be broken in. For the price difference between the 501 and 503 the 501 met my budget and current needs. One day I will probably graduate up to a better head and carbon fiber legs but hey... you got to start somewhere.

Regards,

Mark

Thanks Mark

at B&H, the 3221 legs you mentioned were listed as a "wilderness tripod". Is that you what you bought?

The site says it is for nature shoots, but i cant see why it wouldnt work for anything else also? What is so different about these tripods, or am I looking at the wrong item?

thanks!

Chris,

Yes, I got the wilderness tripod. I believe it was $273 at B&H. This is a center column tripod. The first thing I did was remove the column and insert the included tripod head plug which the 501 attaches to. This allows me to get really low to the ground for certain shots. Also, if you get this tripod, I recommend you get the ball leveling head accessory (don't recall the exact model number but B&H has it. It's about $64.00.. you will then be able to level up at an amazing speed. Expensive yes, but well worth it.

Good shooting....

Mark

http://www.adorama.com/BG3221WN501.html

that link is to the bogen wilderness tripod at Adorama. Its a little less expensive (not much) than B&H, but also includes a bag.

I think I will buy this first, and maybe add the ball leveling accessory later, because at the moment I cant spend much more than $274 plus shipping.

Also, regarding the center column... is it easy to add/remove it? I would be needing it occasionally for high shots, but would also like to take it out for occasional low-ground shots.

thanks again for your help...

Yep. Take about 3 seconds to remove it. The little plug I was telling you about is stored at the bottom of the column and just snaps out.

I hope you enjoy it.

Mark

Thanks for all your help. I came into some extra money and decided to spend a little more and get a nicer setup. I bought the Bogen 3181 (actaully 3182, the black version) and the 501 head. The 3182 legs come with a 75mm half ball and they seem to be very sturdy with my GL2.

I have noticed the "stiction" on the 501 head, and havent been able to fix it by playing around with the head screws like someone here mentioned, but i'm still trying. If anyone else has other suggestions on a fix for this, please let me know. Otherwise I'll deal with it until I can afford to upgrade to the 503 (which I understand does not have the stiction problem, correct?).

I know this thread is old, but the "stiction" problem doesn't go away on it's own with these heads.

I greatly reduced this problem in the following way:

1. Unscrew tension knob on right side.
2. Remove handle.
3. Remove four Allen head bolts from top of 501.
4. Lift off top of head. Watch out for small spring holding the red release button on the left side and the metal cam under the right side.
4. Pry off right hand section of head.
5. Use a Q-tip and 97% Isopropyl alcohol to remove the sticky grease from the two mating outer white Delrin rings. If it went over the outer edge remove it there as well.
6. Don't apply any oil or grease. Leave those two mating rings free from grease or oil and reassemble.
7. No need to bother with the left side of the head.

Worked for me. No more tilting stiction.

John

But... the original poster had problems with sticky pans, not tilts...

There are more people having problems with tilts on these and the 503's. I could have dug up other threads (about the tilt on the 503) as well, but I thought I would stick to this one because I have a 501.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/234413-improved-my-503-hdv-head-pennies.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/70707-inside-bogen-501-a.html

John

I know this thread is old, but it was revived, and it asks the same questions that are bothering me. At my last day job I was using classic Manfrotto legs (predecessor to the 190?) with a 128LP head. It had almost daily use for fifteen years (classical music, distances from 10 feet to 150 feet) with cameras in the 1 - 2 kg range, and ended up butter smooth. After retirement I decided to buy myself something for my hobby (trains and wildlife) and the 190CX/700RC2 seemed to be the modern equivalent. No way. Even after I removed half the grease from the pan discs (because I would be using it frequently in low temperatures) it still had stiction and jerky pan. I don't have 15 years to daily use it, nor one of those accelerated life test machines to "run it in". My current camera weighs 350 grams with battery, and zooms to 890mm equivalent focal length. I toyed briefly with the notion of adding a 1kg iron plate under the camera...

The next step up seems to be the 501, 2, 3, 4 series. I have seen reviews that recommend putting up the extra money for a 504 over the 501. Now it gets interesting. Some dealers are listing the 501 as "out of stock, not likely to be restocked", ie. obsolete. But Manfrotto now have a 501HDV listed in the current models on their website. Also I observe the 501 is the only one of the four that does not claim pan drag is adjustable to zero. The 502 might be a logical progressive improvement over the 501, but I haven't found any reviews comparing the two. I've examined the expanded parts diagrams for these heads and I don't see how the pan drag can be adjusted to zero for the 502, 3, 4. I would expect the adjustment to transfer the head/camera weight from the friction plates to a center ball or needle, but it's not obvious from looking at the pictures.

Another "improvement" is the counter-balance spring, and it seems Manfrotto have now realised that cameras are getting lighter. The 50x-HDV models appear to offer adjustable counterbalance.

Questions: has anyone here hands on experience or comparisons of both the 501 and 502?
How can they (or, do they really) reduce pan drag to zero?

Pro - Heads - Video | Manfrotto (http://www.manfrotto.com/video-heads-pro)

Peter,

I regret not seeing this post till now, apollogies all 'round.

Pan drag at zero is is not a "must have", I can assure you.

What you need is pan drag that is perfectly consistant, from start to finish, no matter how hard it is (base) or has been set.

You will never get these requirements from a Manfrotto head, period.

You can get zero pan drag from Sachtler heads, but it comes at the cost of requiring the human arm to work like an machine, which, suprisingly enough, it was never engineered to do.

If you want consistant pan drag, you need to go for either a Sachtler set to something other than Zero drag, or a Vinten, where Zero doesn't mean Zero at any time.

Both are flawless in their consistency and will make you wonder why you ever played with Manfrotto.

As for Manfrottos "counterbalance" system, about as much use as an ash tray on a bicycle, so I wouldn't get too excited.


CS