Question for David Newman:

The HD10 (and all digital camcorders at present) has a very limited dynamic range (not to mention the problems with focus, aperature, etc with the HD10). So...

Could Aspect be used to edit a digital intermediate from film? And if so....

1. How would one transfer from film to Cineform codec? Or can you transfer from 2K to Cineform?

2. What color depth does Aspect use with Premiere? (8 bit? 10 bit? 10 bit logrhythmic?)

3. Am i out of my mind?

No you are not out of your mind. Maybe we at CineForm are, as we heading in the direction your questions are leading. The current version of Aspect HD and the first edition of Aspect HD for Premiere Pro (due out next week), is still targeted for accelerating 720p HD at 30fps. Although any source can be used, like we have some Varicam users experimenting with Aspect HD, the direct support for accelerating higher resolutions with multiple frame rates will be for the future. Sorry I can't provide more details.

Note: the current release of the CFHD codec will support 2k resolutions, so After Effects can be used if you wish for DI work.

Happy you're moving in that direction, David.

Since gearing up for a film i want to shoot next fall, i've been learning as much as i can about, well, as much as i can. Now that i've invested in an HD10u, DP-Xeon PC and Cineform Aspect, i'm reconsidering the best way to go with the production. I would still very much like to edit this thing myself (or a rough cut), but am considering acquiring images with (ghast) film.

So I'm wondering what my options are (or will be by next fall) and have too many questions.... (sorry)

1. Isn't it possible now to edit at 24p using Premiere? (okay, it won't do the pulldown thing). If so, how soon do you think Aspect will support 720p WITH 24p (which would essentially allow you to edit Varicam on a PC)?

2. 2K editing seems to work with 10 bit color depth and i'm wondering what does Aspect/Premiere use? What's the deal with 10 bit logrhythmic? I'm worried that all the benefits of 2K or 720 with resolution are lost with lack of color depth, etc.

3. How does editing with wavelet compression (Carlsbad) compare with uncompressed 2k?

thanks

Lots of good questions but feel I shouldn't publicly answer them, other than by next fall we have all the tools, quality and performance you will need. :)

The biggest limitation for doing color grading with low end edit tools is that nagging bit depth problem. Premiere has been able to do the 2K res for many years now. That was never the issue.
So if you can stand non real time playback of full res images, Vegas or Premiere or whatever will work. You can always do the color grade in proxy resolution and then re-render the whole project at full res when you have finished timing the movie.
So if your source is 8bit JVC HD10 , you already have what you need out there.
If you want 2K 10 bit film scans for under $10K per 80 min, contact me for the details.
I have a way you can color grade with Premiere and I apply the project to the 10 bit image files. Poor mans DI !
-Les

You AspectHD experts out there:

We are having a weird problem with Aspect HD 1.1.

We have an AMD Athlon XP 2000 machine w/ 1GB of memory and a dedicated 80 GB 7,200 RPM HD w/ an 8 MB Buffer. We are running XP Pro and Premiere 6.5.

When we use HDLink to convert an .m2t file into an avi, the conversion seems to work but the AVI comes out all weird (almost like a TV with the V-hold messed up).

Finally we got it to work by selecting "interlaced" mode in HDLink prefs and doing the conversion that way. That worked, but I'm not clear on what "interlaced" means in this context. Also, there are places in the video that have weird artifacts after the conversion, enough so that the video isn't really usable.

Anyone know any reason the conversion using the default setting (progressive) wouldn't work properly?

Ben

Very simple. There is a patch/upgrade available for Athlon users under Premiere 6.5. This patch is unneccesary for Aspect HD 2.0 under Premiere Pro. Contact CineForm tech support to get the patch for you Althon system.

In the meantime using the interlaced mode will not cause any issues. Interlaced compression is optimized for interlaced formats like 1080i, however it will encode progressive material with a small data-rate overhead (about 10%.) The quality will be the same as the progressive encoding mode.

I have read the minimum and recommended and minimum system requirements for AspectHD, but I have a few questions.

Being that the software is optimized for a P4 will it run on a Athlon XP? If so do you need to run dual channel memory on the AMD platform? I ask this because dual channel ram or single channel on the socket A platform have little performance increase unlike the P4 which receives a great boost from dual channel. What kind of performance hit will an Athlon XP take in comparisson to a similar rated P4?

What fsb speed is minimum for a P4? Will the program work with a 533fsb, or is 800fsb required?

Thanks
Ken

Ken, these are good questions. At this very moment Aspect HD is not Althon XP compatible, an earily version was (Aspect HD 2.0) and our next release will restore that Althon XP compatibility. We have full compatibility with later series AMD CPU like the FX and Opteron.

For performance this is the order of system perference:
1) Dual Opteron
2) P4 800MB/s FSB and dual channel DDR
3) Dual Xeon 533MB/s RDRAM
4) Single Opteron or FX or P4 533MB/s DC-DDR or RDRAM
5) Althon XP.

The memory speeds of the P4s make them shine. We have seen a P4 mix up to 5 channels of 720p30, yet the best Althon XP would be doing 2 or 3 channels. You might not ever use 5 channels of video yet you may want to use multiple filters like color correction and overlays with 2 or 3 video layers so the perfromance comes in handy. Memory speed is so important with HD as the frame is bigger than the external CPU cache, so when an Althon might be able to out compute a P4, it can't as it is being starved on data.

David,

Further to the questions asked, I am thinking about putting together my own system to use Aspect HD - Boxx technologies seem to be reccommended but they are out of my price range and I am happy to build my own. My question is, what reccommendations do you have for motherboard and chipset for use with AspectHD? Are there any known compatibility issues with certain m'boards or chipsets? I am thinking of building a dual Opteron system.

Thanks

Andrew

For a dual Opteron go with IWILL motherboards rather those from Tyan. Both work fine with Aspect HD, yet the Tyan motherboard seems to have problem outputting HD to the AGP card under Media Player (I have spoken to Tyan about the fact that it uses more CPU than it should.) With a dual Opteron make sure you add RAM to both CPUs (best speed that way.)

For P4 motherboards there are no compatibility issues. We have found the Intel chipsets 865 (good) and 875 (best) to provide excellent performance. I also think the 875's integrates SATA RAID 0 is about the fastest without purchasing a PCI-X motherboard.

For the price performance reasons we have been recommending the P4, yet for future expansion to HDSDI (i.e. Prospect HD) a dual Opteron (248s or greater) with PCI-X is the way to go.

David one more question please.
Continuing allong this line, how does system performance vary when using the codec outside of PPro? Say in After Effects?
Does the codec still demand high memory bandwidth for high performance or is it less intensive being that it is not RT prieview?
Would the Athlon XP perform closer to a P4? Or does the system pecking order for AspectHD hold true in other apps as well?
Thanks
Ken

When using After Effects to still helps to have a fast system, multiple CPU etc. We don't accelerate After Effects but with any HD processing memory speed is a significant factor. However I expect a fast Athlon XP will perform in a similar way to a fast P4.

I have an athlon64 (1 gb 400ddr), will the current Aspect HD work with this system.

Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Dwight Flynn : I have an athlon64 (1 gb 400ddr), will the current Aspect HD work with this system. -->>>

Yes it will work well.

On my PC, when I manually install the driver(s) for the HD10, known as JVC Tape Device, Windows warns me that the computer may not be compatible with the camera, and could cause the computer to stop working.

Is this normal, and will it be okay if I go ahead and install the driver(s)?

THANKS!

heath

Yes. That is the normal behavior. JVC hasn't submitted their drivers for WHQL certification.

Once you say yes and let it install you won't get any more warnings.

Phil

Hey all!

We just released Aspect HD 2.5 Beta 1 for download on our website. (www.cineform.com)

For anyone interested in downloading it, there is now capture and RT playback support for the 1080i Sony HDV material. At this time, there is still not support for going back out to the camera though.

It has a 15 day timeout, unless you are already an Aspect HD owner with an activation.

We would love feedback from whoever downloads it so please let us know if you have problems by emailing support@cineform.com or by submitting a trouble ticket on our support website.

Thanks and happy editing!

Thad H.
CineForm Support

so, David Newman - writing back m2t's to tape via firewire - it's all been worked out?

thanks for the update...

We are still in beta with Aspect HD 2.5 and taking feedback from anyone who gives it a try through the free trail download. The one feature we are still working on is exporting edited content back the the Sony FX1/Z1 camera. We hope to complete this in time for the early December release, but we will not hold of the release much longer, so we may have the HD2 export as a later (free) download.

Hi David,

Just playing with FX1 footage in AE 6.5 and having difficulty setting up the composition so that it will export properly back to PPro. Also what should the interpretation be for the footage items in AE.

David

I have replied to this enquiry here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35658

I do not see any mention of this at the CineForm web site.
How do I go about getting it?
While I'm at it, why isn't it being promoted or bundled with the software. It is such a usefull plug-in to anyone who does serious work. I would also like to encourage its development in the direction of DVrack or Test Gear. This may help to encourage people to purchase AspectHD rather than settle for the free Adobe plugin.

What kind of plugin are we talking here? Better overlay support for video preview?

Apparently it isn't a plug-in but a small piece of software that lets you view a real-time feed from the cam via firewire out to your pc or laptop. We use a laptop as a field monitor. You just can't tell HD focus on a tiny LCD or the viewfinder.
They emailed it to me today.

found the answer in other posts


Thanks

We just posted the final release for Aspect HD verison 2.5 -- the version with support for real-time editing of Sony FX1/Z1 and JVC HDV cameras. It is available as a 15-day trial verison and for purchase for $499 from www.cineform.com.

For those who tried the beta release, there are several enhancements such as better scene detection, improved 1080i compression and a deinterlacing scrubbing option (for better 1080i previews and faster scrubbing to a secondary monitor.) Aspect HD remains the highest performance, on-line quality, software HDV editing solution.

David

Will it be possible to install the test drive version if the test drive beta has already expired?

David

Yes. The new release extends the trial peroid.

I have the plugin with v.3.0 installed. How do I get this plugin to work?
I found nothing on the Cineform site, (mind you once your off the main page it is a jungle to locate certain info) and my own playing around has given me no results.

What extra does Aspect HD get you compared to just using PPro 1.51 for editing HDV?

Thanks

Dave

Dave, this question is specifically answered on the Aspect HD product page. Scoll down a bit. There is a section that tells you exactly what Aspect HD offers over Premiere's support in v1.5.1: http://www.cineform.com/products/AspectHDPPro.htm

Once you check out the text you can also download a 15-day fully-functional trial from the CineForm site.

thanks

dave

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

The filter is designed primarily for cleaning up the chroma for the HD10U. It is a render only filter. It works like just any other premiere filter, yet it is subtle as it only removed noise from the chroma channels -- luma is uneffected.

I'm just starting with HDV and Aspect HD / Premiere Pro so apologies for some newbie questions. I'll say in advance that these questions in NO WAY imply a complaint, I am just trying to understand things better.

First, frame rate (I live in a PAL zone).

If I am starting with 50i fps why is the PPro / Aspect HD option (project presets) 25i, might I not prefer to stay with 50i.

I also see that the options include 1080 25i, 30i and *30p* but no 25p. Is that significant. Is data being lost here (I presume not).

Does this 25 fps have significance for uploading back to tape, what goes back 25i, 25p or 50i and does it matter.

Finally what does this (25i) imply in relation to deinterlacing.

Second,

'On a 3GHz P4 you will edit 3 - 4 HD streams of 1440 x 1080i (5-6 streams of 720p30) in real time on the Premiere Pro timeline including transitions, effects, titles, and motion – with no dropped frames. '

Given I am working with a new P4 3 GHz, what does 3-4 HD streams mean (is that 3-4 'video+audio' streams or 2 of each) and does opacity fit into the real time picture.

What should ones export rendering settings be if it will at some stage go back out to tape (deinterlace vs the fields options).

Third,

'you never have to conform a project at completion'

- what does this mean.

My very preliminary tests are showing export rendering times (just back to cineform avi) of close to 10x (longer) real time on typical uncomplicated footage (two streams, mild Aspect filtered color adjustment and the odd transition).

I'm going to go into all this thoroughly in the next few days but would appreciate any response which will help me understand this stuff better, use it better and set reasonable expectations.

Andrew

>If I am starting with 50i fps why is the PPro / Aspect HD option (project presets) 25i, might I not prefer to stay with 50i.

25i and 50i are the same thing. 50i is really miss-named as it is a field rate not a frame rate. 25i just means 25 frames per second -- 50i also means 25 frames per second.

>I also see that the options include 1080 25i, 30i and *30p* but no 25p. Is that significant. Is data being lost here (I presume not).

30p is for the JVC HDV camera. However, if you are doing a project in CineFrame 25, you can create your own 25p (1440x1080) preset -- just select 25i then customize it and turn the fiels off (i.e. progressive.)

>Does this 25 fps have significance for uploading back to tape, what goes back 25i, 25p or 50i and does it matter.

They are all the same. 25p will only differ in the way transition and motion overlays are rendered (frame based rather than field based.)

>Finally what does this (25i) imply in relation to deinterlacing.

It isn't related. Deinterlacing is a option for interlaces source going out to progressive or interlaced exports.

>'On a 3GHz P4 you will edit 3 - 4 HD streams of 1440 x 1080i (5-6 streams of 720p30) in real time on the Premiere Pro timeline including transitions, effects, titles, and motion – with no dropped frames. '
Given I am working with a new P4 3 GHz, what does 3-4 HD streams mean (is that 3-4 'video+audio' streams or 2 of each) and does opacity fit into the real time picture.

3-4 streams of video (we don't count audio -- although a lot of audio will reduce video streams.) Do get this number we add a long dissolve (or any transition) for two streams then add video on top using opacity (each layer being an additional stream.) On some systems we can get more than 4 total streams -- although often not sustained. The system allow for peak loads above the 3-4 sustained limit.

>What should ones export rendering settings be if it will at some stage go back out to tape (deinterlace vs the fields options).

The defaults will be fine for interlaced content. Aspect HD will advise you if you have the setting wrong for the current mode.

>'you never have to conform a project at completion'
>- what does this mean.

Conform is a profession term that describes using proxy files then recapturing at higher quality for master. As CineForm are on-line quality they are not proxys, no recapture (and conform) is necessary.

>My very preliminary tests are showing export rendering times (just back to cineform avi) of close to 10x (longer) real time on typical uncomplicated footage (two streams, mild Aspect filtered color adjustment and the odd transition).

On single streams I see around 5X, and longer for layered streams. The export uses Premieres rendering engine, Aspect HD doesn't accelerate this stage, and Premiere is a little slow.

Just want to say thank you David for your patience and your thorough response - I kind of thought that the 25i / 50i had to be the same thing but now I know.

Andrew

I captured a full HD tape to my PC. I did it from within Premiere 1.5.1. My system is P4 3 GHz, 800 Mhz FSB - pretty much the basic Aspect HD spec.

I find there are no dropped frames at all but the is a fair amount of pixellation (ie blocked pixels out of sync for a few frames in a row).

I noticed a comment in another thread suggesting this was a capture problem and that capturing using HD Link or even straight M2T might be better, is that likely to be the case?

I should perhaps add that this is standaerd DV tape, not the HD variant, however as I said no dropped frames at all but enough pixellation to potentially be a problem.

Andrew

"MPEG Splats" as we call them can be due to tape drop out, or to system loading (in this case the packets are dropped over firewire.) If it is the second case you can capture M2T files directly and converting them after capture using HDLink.

Hmmm, this is embarrassing, was asking for a levels type filter and just found exactly what I wanted in the color balance filter - don't know how I missed it last night, too late I guess.

Will further RT filters be added to Aspect HD over time?

Andrew

Yes there will be more over time. I'm glad you discovered Color Balance.

I've got to say the support / response Cineform provides in this forum is outstanding.

I've had a play with the Color Balance filter now.

Approaching this from the other end (the 'I wish' list), in the past I used the Premiere Levels filter a great deal, mostly the luminence input sliders (shadow clip, gamma, highlight clip), less often the same on an individual color channel.

Setting the R, G and B sliders equally away from zero for the three ranges (shadow, midtone, highlight) would appear to be equivalent to the levels filter (with presumably negative values being the equivalent to the 'output' sliders in levels) . Is that roughly right.

I would find single r=g=b sliders useful (and perhaps these would reduce the processing load when individual RGB adjustments are not necessary). Similarly, perhaps even more, I would find a gamma slider in the Color Corrector tool useful.

My RT previews with the Color Balance filter do not seem to be working particularly well.

If I apply say r+20, g+10, b=15 to the midtones then the static preview appears to show the changes. When I pay the timeline these changes disappear (so in my example the reddish tinge completely vanishes) and I also get very visible vertical luminence banding.

Also if I set Luma Preserve to anything other than 0, all the effects of the Color Balance filter disappear in the static preview (and no difference between any value between 1 and 100), however when I play the timeline, as before, I get vertical banding and I do not see the color adjustments made (nor any 'luminence only' color adjustments). I tested this by having the luma preserve start at 0, do a jump from 0-1 after a few seconds and then do a fairly rapid increase from 1-100 over the next few seconds. Playing the timeline I saw no sign of change at all (but plenty of vertical banding).

This is with a single layer of video using P4, 3 GHz.

Andrew

Andrew there is a fix for the the real-time playback of Color Balance (it was broken in one of the downloads -- it worked in the earlier releases.) It will be fixed (again) in Aspect HD 3.1 (another free upgrade) which shouldn't be too far off. If you urgently need the fixed color balance, file a trouble ticket with message "May I please have the latest Color Balance -- David said it was OK." -- we do our best to email it to you.

Thanks again David, for the time being I can wait - it's good to hear its a bug that will be fixed rather than something wrong with my system.

Gamma adjustment either on it's own or in Color Corrector would be very useful :-)

Andrew

Let's say I buy the Premiere Pro/Aspect HD suite for one computer and have another copy of Premiere Pro installed on a second system: can I install Aspect HD on the second system (from the first set of install discs) and have two full HDV editing setups without violating the Cineform licensing agreement? Or do I have to buy an Aspect HD license for each computer I run it on?

P.S. I just realized this post should have been in the Cineform forum. Maybe someone can move it there?

Let's say I just do some color and few effects. Will using the Aspect plug in allow my footage to render faster than if I just use the plug in inside of PPro 1.5?

I would do the test myself but I downloaded the Aspect trial long ago and it is expired.

Rendering out to a file is not accelerated by Aspect HD. Aspect HD does have real-time color correction, which means you only have to render for exports, saving a lot of time, yet the export time will be approximately the same.

P.S. Whenever there is a significant new version of Aspect HD we allow another 15-day trail. If you last tested Aspect HD 2.x, AHD 3.0 will give you another trial peroid.

I just thought I'd put down something I'd be interested in...

My prefered filter for colour adjustment in both AE and PPro is the Curves filter. All of the AspectHD filters are phenomenally real-time - and I'd love to have an AHD Curves filter to exploit as well. No idea how feasible it is, but I suspect it would be a worthwhile addition.

-Steve

That is on the list. A real-time curves would be nice, there is nothing that technically that would prevent this from happening.