Plugging up the DVX to a Sony PVM 1354Q (old) pro monitor. In the monitor setup menu under the NTSC Setup levels menu you must choose Zero or 7.5. Which Do I Choose?

It of course changes the blacks, the way you set up for the bars and how you tweak the camera. So is the DVX outputting, through the S-video out, 0 IRE or is it outputting 7.5 so as to play nice with the average TV set? And where does all that leave us when we get a switchable choice as in this monitor?

Thanks
Bill

You should set your monitor to 7.5.

If you are shooting with the camera set to 0 IRE (which you really should be) then set the monitor to 0 as well, then calibrate as you normally would. Feeding a monitor a reference signal of 0 when it is expecting 7.5 will not allow proper calibration - becomes a guess. Has to do with the plunge bars in the lower right corner of SMPTE bars.

I think the jury might be out on that one? Most NTSC cameras for USA distributiion have an analog output setup of 7.5, expecting to be plugged into a VCR or TV. I have not heard that the DVX100 is an exception.

I assumed the question implied the use of the analog outputs. In any event, play the color bars to the monitor and check the pluge on the monitor.

Of course the DV signal is 0, but then the firewire is not being plugged into the monitor?

When you set setup in the camera, it is in reference to the DV recording, and not the analog outputs, and yes, you don't want to ad setup to the recording. That would create a setup of 15 at the analog outputs.

My tests show that the DVX outputs, via analog, whatever you have the camera set to record in, be it 0 or 7.5 IRE. Higher end cameras are often switchable (I have one) in that you can record at 0 IRE but set the analog outs to 7.5. I would not assume, however, that all DV cameras and decks are outputting 7.5 - in fact, many don't or can't.

<<<-- I would not assume, however, that all DV cameras and decks are outputting 7.5 - in fact, many don't or can't. -->>>

Maybe someone else will step in, I would like to know! This statement means most consumer DV cameras incorrectly output a 0 IRE, which I doubt, as all consumer monitors and VCRs are 7.5IRE.

I record at 0IRE in my DVX100 and it plays analog out beautifully on TVs. If what you say is true, this would not be the case. My Sony PVM-8045Q does not have a setup option, but plays my DVX100 back beautifully.

The 0 setup option on monitors is to accomodate Japanese NTSC, which in fact does have a setup of 0, like PAL.

<<<-- This statement means most consumer DV cameras incorrectly output a 0 IRE, which I doubt, as all consumer monitors and VCRs are 7.5IRE. -->>>

That's right - they output 0 and domestic consumer monitors and VCR's, 7.5. I didn't say it all made sense - that's just the way it is :)

If you still want a second opinion check here for example:
http://adamwilt.com/DV.html

Adam Wilt:http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#Setup


Now, when you play back to analog, what happens? Digital levels get converted to analog levels, and that's where setup enters the picture (or not).

In Europe and Asia, analog video's blacks are at zero voltage: 0mV PAL, 0 IRE NTSC. In North America we add a slight offset, the infamous 7.5 IRE of setup, for historical reasons (the DC regulation of early sets was poor, and electron beam retrace suppression didn't exist, thus the designers provided a safety margin between "black" and "blanking" levels so that retrace wouldn't be visible even if the viewer's TV set was slightly misadjusted).

I think you're mis-interpretting what Adam wrote or I don't understand you. He goes on to write:
______
"Huh? Remember, I said "at NBC." NBC and their partners in crime will be using proper, broadcast/professional NTSC DVCPRO and DVCAM decks. Such decks have, buried in their menus, the option to "add setup". In Japan and Korea, that setting is properly turned off. In the USA, that setting should be on. By the same token the better camcorders offer "add setup" switches in their menus for their analog outputs.

A similar setting removes setup on incoming analog signals; it should be on in the new world, off in the exotic east.

Now, the Rest of Us may be using lower end gear: DSR-20s, DSR-11s, PD150s, even (shudder) consumer gear. None of these low-end decks and camcorders have "add setup."

So if you take a tape shot in a DV or DVCAM camcorder and play it back in one of these low-end decks, the analog output will NOT have setup. The playback will be fine in Asia, but it'll be "too dark" in the Americas."
______

But I don't want to argue with you. I'm sure somebody else will chime and confirm what I've been saying.

Try this. Feed SMPTE bars (not from the DVX) to one input of your monitor. Make sure it is properly calibrated to these. With your DVX set to 0 IRE and the bars on, send an analog out to another input on the monitor. Switch between the inputs. Notice how the DVX blacks look crushed? Notice how all the plunge bars look identical? Now, switch your monitor inputs to 0 IRE in the menu. Now the DVX bars are correct (and if you switch back to the other input those blacks will now be raised too high).

You can also check out this recent thread on another forum:
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=17810&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Preston:

Thanks for the link - in that discussion I found a link to good tutorial on setup issues even though it's JVC (sorry Panny):

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/inst_man.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101373&itempath=&feature_id=19

That's an excellent tutorial, Stephen. Thanks for passing it along.

Preston,

Yeah I see now, the wording in two different sections mislead me. So...why doen't the setup look incorrect on my Sony PVM-8045Q, and why wouldn't it have a setup option? The pluge looks perfect on it.

I know the monitor auto selects PAL, NTSC etc, but how does it know the signal is 0IRE?


Thanks,

Scott

Scott, I have an 8042Q I use in the field and it doesn't have any kind of menu system either for setting input IRE level. A miscalibrated monitor doesn't necessarily mean your picture will look bad. In fact, it may look great - but.... it won't be "right". Just means you're not seeing the most accurate representation of what's going to tape. (You really need a bigger monitor than this in the studio, too)

Then that raises the question: Why can't I just calibrate my monitor that's expecting a 7.5 signal to the 0 IRE bars? Well, you could but it would still not be quite "right". You have two solutions. Either insert a proc amp between the camera output and monitor - which could be a hassle; or adjust the monitor to 7.5 level bars (which you could do by temporarily switching the camera to 7.5 and feeding it's bars) and then adjusting the brightness control until just before the far left plunge bar increases in brightness. This link will better explain what I'm talking about.

http://greatdv.com/video/smptebars2.htm

But in the end, your shooting needs may or may not require you to go to such lengths (I shoot all the time without a monitor with great results). In that case, adjust the best you can, don't worry so much about it, and get on with the business of shooting.

do do this correctly, as I understand it, you need to adjust the brightness on the monitor until the left two pluge bars on the NTSC colorbar chart disappear into one another.

Bill is correct but that is only if you are feeding the monitor 7.5 IRE video. With a 0 IRE signal you have to continue raising the brightness (or switch the input level on the monitor, if that's an option).

Preston, I'm not feeling alone anymore. Sony Professional had to transfer me to engineering, who in turn could not understand why I would want the cameras analog output to match the monitor. Seems like there's much confusion all around.

I thought of temporarily setting my camera to 7.5 and adjusting the monitor brightness, but Sony said that wouldn't work. I'll go with you on that one :-).

Thanks,

First … thanks all for tackling the problem. There seems to be a wealth of misunderstanding about the issue. It’s important to everyone that is trying to make the best looking DV we can.

I’ve been reading and testing and scratching my head, and spent most of the day and last evening (till about 1am) plugging and unplugging, looking back at what you’ve said and the like.

Here’s what I did:

1. took my Panasonic DVX100 and switched it to bars … camera set to zero.
2. took my (new) Panasonic AG-DV2500 DV Deck … which by the way has “Setup” and you can switch between Setup and Off. Which is 7.5 and 0.
3. I plugged the DVX100 into the AG-DV2500 (camera at zero) and fed it the bars. I set the Deck to “Setup ON” (7.5).
4. I plugged the AG-DV2500 into the Monitor (Sony PVM 1354Q) I set the Monitor switch to 7.5 in the menu. I adjusted the bars to show what I understand to be the proper Pluge.(left two merged into one another). I then played a carefully lit scene from the deck and it looked good as well.
5. I unplugged the Deck from the Firewire cable and plugged the camera’s Firewire cable into my Canopus break out box and captured the same bars (via Canopus DV Capture)
6. I started Premiere 6.5 and imported the same bars to the timeline.
7. I plugged the Firewire cable back into the Deck and played back the bars through the deck to the monitor (7.5 & 7.5 setup you could say). The bars looked the same.
(The monitor is still at the 7.5 setup just established for the feed from the Deck)

Seemingly if I go through the AG-DV2500 Deck and leave it’s output to “Setup On” (7.5) and the monitor to 7.5 setup on the camera’s bars, then everything seems to be “inline” for me. But what about the comment that the left pluge bar should be visible if you are feeding 0 bars. Does the 2500 Deck overcome that problem in this setup?

If I plug the Camera directly to the monitor via the S-video cable with leaving the monitor at 7.5 then the Camera fed bars at 0 are too dark. Switching the camera bars to 7.5 makes it look right again.

Now switching the camera, with a 0 bars direct feed, to the monitor and switching the monitor to 0 seems to make the bars a bit too bright, if they are to match the response of the previous 7.5 setup via the deck. To make the pluge look the same you must tweak the brightness knob a bit darker.

Ok ... so now what have I got wrong? And if I take the monitor out to location and plug the camera into it to tweak in the prefect scene... Do I set camera to 0, monitor to 0 and tweak the pluge down to the left two going away and the last one remains or what?

Thoughts welcome from those smarter, more experienced or more opinionated than I about what this all means to us all?

Thanks again for all the thinking and testing and typing to help clear up the thinking on this subject.
Thanks
Bpete

Steps 1-7 look good. You've got it. Theoretically, once you have the monitor properly adjusted (like you've done) you should be able to feed the camera directly to it (with camera set to 0), switch the monitor to 0 and have everything be the same - and correct. Bottom line is: your monitor and source should have the same settings - 0 to 0 or 7.5 to 7.5. With all things being equal, coming out of Storm or your deck "should" produce the same results as hooking your camera direct, but some discrepancy isn't out of the question (due to signal loss or whatever). A minor tweek to the brightness can bring everything back in line. If it requires a huge adjustment, then something isn't right.

So, if you take your monitor out in the field, leave your camera set to 0 (you don't want to shoot with setup by mistake) and switch the monitor to 0 IRE on the input. It may need to stay on for 10 minutes or so to warm up. Feed bars, tweek if necessary (left and center plunge should match, right one brighter), go for it.

BTW, your quote: "But what about the comment that the left pluge bar should be visible if you are feeding 0 bars. Does the 2500 Deck overcome that problem in this setup?"

Once properly adjusted you shouldn't see the left plunge bar. That will occur however if you send 7.5 bars with the monitor set to 0. Everything will be too bright. The other instance would be if you don't have a switchable monitor (fixed at 7.5) you would have to adjust the brightness higher when feeding it a 0 IRE signal, and then eyeball things. In your case, don't worry about it.

Thanks Preston,
That's great to hear. If you don't mind, one more spot where I might be slightly confused.

>>>>Earlier post Bill wrote: do this correctly, as I understand it, you need to adjust the brightness on the monitor until the left two pluge bars on the NTSC colorbar chart disappear into one another.<<<<<<<<<<

I adjusted my monitor as he describes, is that correct? Or is there something slightly different in your description >>>>(left and center plunge should match, right one brighter), <<<?

I had taken the instructions I read to say that left and center should disappear into black, with the center being "just invisible," I think was the quote, and the right most bar visible. So if I'm off tweak us over to "just right" if you please.
Thanks,
Bill

That's correct. At this stage you're dealing strictly with luminance or brightness. Your focus is on the first two plunge bars. You want the middle one to just disappear into the first so that they appear as one - no division or apparent difference between the two. As soon as they "merge", stop.

So what do you do when the monitor has setup only? Do I change the camera to 7.5 long enough to tweak and then switch back? Or can I turn the brightness up on the monitor with the camera at 0...a safer maneuver.

Hi Scott. You and I are in the same boat in that our field monitor's are fixed and expect to receive a 7.5 signal. That means starting with a properly calibrated monitor, leaving the cam set to 0, and turning the brightness up as described here (Step 1 of second half, bottom of page):

http://greatdv.com/video/smptebars2.htm

A pain in the butt to be sure and a certain amount of guesswork no matter how you cut it.

Thanks Preston! A terrific link. The info on adjusting Premiere's color bars was great, if only to know what the RGB values of the color bars are.

don't know about the DVX 100 color bars ..

but in general
601 SMPTE color bars

RED 180 16 16
G 16 180 16
B 16 16 180
WHITE square 235
1st bar on left 180 180 180
3 pluges = middle is 16 16 16
left of middle 7 7 7
right of the middle 26 26 26 but have seen em anywhere from 26 - 41 across ...

______________________


RGB color bars
R 255 0 0
G 0 255 0
B 0 0 255

white square 255 255 255

<<<-- Originally posted by Don Donatello : don't know about the DVX 100 color bars .. -->>>

Which has me going now, because the DVX100 color bars don't look true in the LCD. Perhaps I should capture some and take a look at the file's colors.

Scott, I'd be willing to bet the DVX generated bars are fine. It's LCD displays I don't trust. They have a ways to go in terms of color, contrast, resolution. Nothing like a good 'ol CRT.

By the way I've captured bars and sampled them before in photoshop. Not always dead on in each color channel (probably due to compression, etc) but within 1 point of correct RGB values - not enough hurt anything.

LCD ... yeah a ways to go.
I did all the setting up as posted above and then to cap it off while still plugged in to the monitor, I went in to the DVX LCD set up and tweaked it till I got it right on the pluge. Then I took a well lit talking head shot that looked real good on the tweaked monitor and worked to get the LCD looking as close as possible. It looks a lot better than I had it before. My .02 worth.

Bill

Question: What setup level do you use on your video monitor when editing video. I use an XL1s and I pretty much just use the setup for contrast control and I have no idea what the actual setup of my video is. So, should I set my monitor to 7.5 or 0?

Ok, I think I've figured something out. I know there's a whole lot of confusion and discussion on the subject, but I think it's a whole lot simpler than many people think.

First, I went to Adam Wilt's website and found out that no DV device records video with setup and no consumer level gear has an option to output video with added 7.5 setup. 7.5IRE setup is only for broadcast and DV users need not bother with it unless they intend for their footage to be broadcast and even then the station would probably do that for you anyway.

Cameras that claim to add setup/pedastle are only simulating different setup levels for visual effects because the actual footage still has a 0IRE setup level.

So if you, like me, are using a consumer level camcorder as a deck, you know that it's certainly not adding setup to your video, so you can set your monitor to 0IRE for setup and calibrate it like that.

My only test was comparing the color bars that come with Vegas to the color bars on the XL1s. They showed up identical on my monitor.

What's really funny though is that I really don't think it matters what you have your video monitor set to as far as setup level. Why? Because if you calibrate your monitor to color bars AFTER choosing a setup level, it will show the exact same thing whether it was 7.5 or 0.

The only question I have left is this: I calibrated my monitor using the method that people use when using a 7.5 setup. With the left two pluge bars being the same. These two bars are both visible and different in my XL1s viewfinder and on my computer monitor in vegas. Are we supposed to calibrate differently when using a 0IRE setup?

Damn, I feel dumb replying to my same message again, but I think I figured out why the middle pluge bar is supposed to be black on a video monitor. In the waveform monitor in Vegas the middle bar is 0IRE and the left bar is below 0, hence it being called super black. So, when you calibrate your monitor you just want to make sure that the part of the signal that's 0IRE is black on your monitor. That just answers the question I asked above I think.