I will be conducting alot of interviews, off camera and on camera, all to be used in a video/multimedia presentation.

I like the idea of capturing audio directly to my G4 Mac laptop where I can keep an eye on levels and still make meaningful eye contact with the subject.

I also like the idea of being able to set up a camera and use my laptop as a monitor. I can control the camera with my zoom commander to some degree.

Many of my subjects will not be comfortable talking in front of other people, like a cameraman.

I'm being obsessive about audio (because it's not my strong point). I'd probaby run a mic from camera as well.

Given this situation, USBpre vs DAT?

Does the USBpre have quality issues I should be aware of? Advantages of owning a DAT versus the USBpre? If I bought a DAT, what are "must have" features for quality audio?

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me

Diane

If you're dead serious about audio dropouts, buy a standalone device,. USB audio never worked well on Windows, which is why the USB speaker market hasn't materialized. I can't say for sure on the Mac, but since you mentioned you plan to use your Mac as a video monitor, you're not using your computer as a dedicated audio recorder. When you are talking about DAT, are you actually talking about a standalone DAT recorder? If you have a DAT recorder, you'll need a way to transfer the recording to the computer. A digital transfer is preferable, so you'll need an AES/EBU or SPDIF input device for your Mac.

As for DAT features, you may want to shell out more bucks for one with XLR connectors if you are running longer mic cables.

To further what Gints had to say, you'll do much better with a Firewire device for your Mac, and capturing to a laptop is quite common. USB is not great on either platform.
You can also get an Indigo cardbus from Echo, which allows for 2 mics in/2 channels out, but it has no pre, so you'll want/need a pre to go with that. Great little 24/96 card, I have one in my Powerbook.

I know that dual system recording of sound will give the absolute best results, but have you totally ruled out optimizing the sound going to tape in the camera?

I would think that for what you are talking about, paying attention to the basics (good room, good mike placement, good mike) with the addition of a mixer before going into the camera should yield very good results for dialogue for your projects. The benefit will be not having to mess with syncing everything up in post.

What camera are you planning on using?

I use a USB Duo on a windoze machine. Never had any problems with dropouts.

Thanks for the feedback.

1) I have a GL2. I understand about good mike placement, etc (I am struggling through Jay Rose's book and it was here I read about the USBpre), but what if I do not have a cameraman to monitor sound? What if I am capturing sound only to use as voiceover over B roll shots?

Should I bring the GL2 and use it as a tape recorder? Feels odd, but I guess it can work...

2) My background is as a writer, and I tend to over analyse things. A >mixer< is a good example. I feel like I am >sound dyslexic< because I know what I want to do is not difficult. But if I use a mixer, doesn't that mean I am >mixing< more than one sound? And doesn't it mean that someone has to >watch< the mixer, or operate it, or some such thing? Or does the mixer provide a different function in my case? I wouldn't be able to monitor the levels on the camera's LCD in this particular situation

3) If I have a cameraman, I feel better that someone is monitoring everything and I can relax. But if I'm alone (WITH OR WITHOUT CAMERA) I get anxious worrying about everything going okay. A double system in this case would give me piece of mind. I wouldn't nec use it all the time, or for more action-oriented shots.

4) I use a dual G4 to edit on. My laptop would be for capture only. Douglas, your advice is over my head but I know your advice is worth trying to understand. Can you babystep me a little bit?

5)What firewire devices are out there to facilitate my recording on my laptop?

6) Please consider that I must play the empathetic interviewer in these scenarios, so I can't be behind the camera, and I can't be jumping up and checking stuff all the time....and the subject may not want another person there, so this is the circumstance to which I am trying to adapt my equipment

Thanks everyone for your ideas. It feels good to know you have people out there who are willing to help you brainstorm these problems. Hope someday to return the favor

Now that I have more time...

I just wanted to come back and say, that any problems that existed with USB audio in the windows 98/me days have been fixed. I use a USB audio interface as my d/a and a/d converter and am very happy with it. Obviously, there is a limitation to the bandwidth, but if 2 ins and 2 outs at 24bit/48K are sufficient then USB works fine and has plenty of overhead. Anytime you are recording with a laptop, you need to make sure you computer is fast enough, and your software is stable.

The device I use sounds good, works with ASIO,MME or EASI drivers and comes with clean preamps and phantom power. You can get better preamps with the Sounddevices, Focusrite or Apogee USB devices.

If multitracking is in your future, then I would look into firewire. And there are definetly benefits to stand alone units, like dat or flash recorders. But I think an inexpensive USB device will probably do what you need it to.

True, for two channels, USB does work well, but is still somewhat latent, and also open to more issues. Firewire boxes aren't that much more. I think M-Audio is more or less abandoning their USB cards, based on discontinuation of one product, while adding 2 more Firewire units. Presonus has added a couple more to their line, as has ESI.
Methinks Firewire is really the only way anyone just coming to the table for audio should be looking.

Yah, the cost difference is coming down too. But devices like the minime and Sounddevices USBpre are really top notch.

On the other hand, I played around with the tascam fw-1884 and it's tops. Really strong all around and it's just a hair over a grand.

The sound device USBpre is around $600.
I will check out the Tascam. Thanks Martin.

Is this all I'll need to record audio directly my G4, assuming good speed and stable software? Just a firewire cable to go with the firewire recorder??

Thanks Martin, Douglas and all

Diane

If you go the firewire route, you only need a cable from your firewire interface to the G4/power book...It's easy. Plus, the data rate is very low, so you'll have no issue with monitoring via laptop speaks if you need to, or laptop headphones if you need to. But...the M-audio and Echo units both allow headphone monitoring on the box itself.

Power. A couple of the units can run off power fed back from the usb or firewire cable, others can't.

Since the GL2 is capable of reasonably good audio with manual level controls, then I'd also select an interface that can give you a latency-free analog line level out that would be appropriate for the camera, as well as the digital input into the computer.
This way you can have the same signal with your good mics, good placement and good preamps recorded to both devices.
Double system recording is good, but it's also well worth any small effort in the field to also get the best audio possible into the camera. This small effort can pay huge dividends if something doesn't go as planned in post-production.
You may also want to get a unit that can operate stand-alone and doesn't require hooking to the computer all the time. In case you needed or wanted to go without the computer and just the camera for some occasions.

For the questions about "mixing" in this situation, you should think of your mixer or interface more as a "controller". You're generally going to be recording two separate tracks, there's really no mixing for these situations until post-production. You're simply using a mixer or interface to gain greater control and monitoring of the signals as you route them to your recorders.
Once you've set levels and begun recording, the changes you make will be very subtle unless the subject completely changes their character due to the emotions of the discussion.
Having a mixer or interface handy will allow you this flexibility if needed, but most of the time you should be making only the tiniest gradual adjustments so that different pieces of the interview will cut together more easily.
Study Jay Rose's book on how to match your level settings between your mixer and recorders and you can have confidence in monitoring your controls at hand without having to also keep such close check on multiple recorders.

Which leads me to my next question, what mics do you plan to use?

Martin,
Diane is running a Mac. Power is derived for the M-Audio and Echo boxes via firewire. PC's don't do that, unfortunately.
Jay brings up a couple good points, another benefit of the Firewire box is that you DO have standalone control with a wall wart,and the pre's work for 2 of the 8 outputs, thereby allowing signal to be directly routed to camera.
I disagree with reading Jay's book on matching signal at mixer to camera, because Jay doesn't go into fullscale vs VU. On pages 58-60, he touches it, but it's much, much more complex than he presents it there, and by those descriptions alone, you'll have a 20dB over signal at the camera while seeing zero at the mixer. I was surprised to not see the ATSC spec in the book, it's been 5 years since spec was proposed, almost 3 since implemented. Jay's book is valuable, no doubt, but on that particular issue, which plagues DV daily, he didn't provide enough information, IMO.

>I just wanted to come back and say, that any problems that >existed with USB audio in the windows 98/me days have been >fixed.

Martin,

This is not true. Perhaps your particular device works well, but as a member of the nVidia audio driver development team, the word is that USB audio glitches, even on Windows XP. USB 1.x glitches all the time. USB 2.0 is better, but still glitches. Any USB 1.x devices connected to USB 2.0 drag the entire bus down to USB1 speed. Apparently, Microsoft has a patch to fix some USB issues, but that software is not released. Firewire seems to be much better. If you have a particular solution that works for you, let us know about the specifics.

Gints,

I relent. Y'all are right, if I were buying right now, I'd go with firewire also*. The comparable M-audio systems are only $100 different and the benefits outway that price. As long as everything else works the same, which I haven't examined.

But to answer your question. I use the M-audio USB Duo. It works fine. I've left it rolling for as much as a half hour with no signs of problems. I use it both into Vegas and into Audition.

I've only recorded one side into the edit tool in Audition. That is the way I usually use it.

It draws power through a walwort, 9v AC oddly enough. It connects through USB only and works as my A/D and D/A. But by pressing the "standalone" button I can directly monitor both the s/pdif outs and the line outs.

*One other thing I would consider would be the tascam USB systems. Again the firewire system from tascam is much nicer, but it's also substantially more expensive. They seem to feel if you are only using 2 in 2 out then usb is fine. Their systems are nice because they include a great control panel. But only the firewire unit is automated, and it's the only one that supplies phantom.

>Diane is running a Mac. Power is derived for the M-Audio and >Echo boxes via firewire. PC's don't do that, unfortunately.

Douglas,

I have a cheap Firewire card on my PC that does the job.

P.S. Thanks for the cool articles on achieving a Film Look with Vegas !

REALLY? A card that is delivering full power to an audio device from a laptop? I didn't know it was doable in the PC world. Who's card is it? The ADS doesn't pass power via the cardbus, but I stand corrected, someone has one. I'd like to give it a review if it's also OHCI and a cardbus.
You are welcome for the articles, thanks for reading them!

Thanks Jay, all.

So far, I've only purchased an ATpro7a lav (and have an XLR adaptor). I am contemplating

a wireless system
a sohtgun or other boomable mic

an analog line level is a characteristic to look for in a DAT, I take it. good idea re feeding it to camera as well. I am a paranoid when it comes to audio.

I like all of the suggestions. Can I impose upon you for a laundry list of "good to haves" and I'll take it from there?

M box/Echo--where to get/research
mixer recco for beginners/interviews

My son has protools but I do not know how/if to use this in pre-production...it's available to me, though...

Thanks. You've all been very helpful.

Going backwards from your post;
If you have FCP 4, you likely wouldn't/couldn't need ProTools. FCP has very nice audio tools now, and coupled with Peak, you can accomplish most everything you need right in FCP.

Nice to haves?
1. M-Audio 410 or Echo Fire8
2. Audio Technica 897 (great for V/O work, too)
3. Peak. Record production audio straight to it.
or
MD player, DAT machine, iRiver, or other high quality digital device. A non-linear device is best as it's a time-saver, but quality isn't going to be an issue. There will be those exclaiming the need for very high quality recording devices. I'm usually one of them. That said, for dialog/walla, ambiences, background audio, you don't need a high end device because of the middle bandwidth of the human voice. If you want to deal with instruments and capture their nuances, then you need better gear than an MD recorder.
We recorded the 3 Tenors direct, same with Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Straight to hard drive. A backup was sent to tape. Tape actually had a problem. Hard drive did not. For me, this is very common now. We have NNovia belt drives to capture video, (they make the CapDV for Laird) and capture audio regularly to these or to the laptop whether it's a Powerbook or PC, using Echo Layla, Mona, or M-Audio 410.

I take it Peak is software? Bias comes with FCP/Toast Audio programs I already have...I was considering soundsoap, and anything requiring real work/finesse I'd take to a pro...

Researched the M Audio 410. It DOES look nice. I put this between my mac and my recording device, correct? And it let
s me add a hard drive, monitor directly from headphones, and so on?

Does it do the same without being connected to the mac (I assume yes, if I have a firewire recorder, for example...)

First search yielded a price of $349.00 How does that sound?

Thanks for the mic recommends, Douglas.

Know any great sound guys in St. Louis, Missouri??


Diane

Do I assume all products like the 410 has XLR connectors? I cannot tell from the product picture I am looking at...

Diane

XLR, 1/4" inputs, TRS 1/4 outputs. You can monitor via 2 sets of headphones. (2 people can monitor at once)
Just to clarify, the 410 connects TO your computer, and your computer is your recording device. If you use a recording device, say...a DAT or iRiver, or other tool, you could use a 410 as well, but that's sort of a waste. you might as well just buy a preamp in that event.
Bias-Inc makes Peak. (and deck) Bias also makes Sound Soap and Sound Soap Pro, which are both noise reduction applications that stand alone or work as plugins to FCP or Peak.
Actually, there are lots of good sound guys in St. Louis. I'll look thru my partner's rolodex and find some if you need a good guy.

>>Actually, there are lots of good sound guys in St. Louis. I'll look thru my partner's rolodex and find some if you need a good guy.<<

Yes, I'd very much like that. I'd prefer a freelancer or a stand-alone guy versus someone working through a production house, although the good ones there are nice to know about, too.

Thanks