WOW gang I just finished my spinning35 and all I can say is AMAZING!! this thing turns the word VIDEO upside down and inside out! it's just AMAZING how film like the images look now! I feel like I would NEVER want to shoot standard VIDEO EVER again! rockon!


now I have to build a rail system to mount the puppy on the bottom of the dvx100! btw for anyone that is having problems with using macro +10 lenses to get the thing to work on the dvx100 I have found a way without them by using a bigger PCX glass and having it VERY close to the dvx lens

Obin -

I'd love to hear about the PCX

- Damion

www.dv3productions.com/test_images/dvx100_spinning35.jpg

I jsut LOVE the grain it gives images!

Nice job!

Can you tell us the exact brand/model PCX and where you purchased it?

Thanks.

that website on the threads here that has stuff for cheap lots of optics I bought 2 PCX lenses I think a 50mm and an 80mm or something like that...that image above is out of focus I will try and post more
www.dv3productions.com/test_images/color_work_35.jpg

this is like god has come down and given me the creative ability I have been searching for as a digital DOP..I LOVE digital and hate it at the same time....this spinning35 really changes that for me as a shooter/editor

Obin-
1)Are you using the DVX100 or the DVX100A? Whats your Z#&F#?
2)Whats the focal length and diameter of the PCX lens you are using?
3)Could you measure and post the measurement for the gap between your PCX and the very front of the DVX100's glass lens?
4)Sounds like there is a gap between your GG and the PCX lens. Could you measure and post that distance as well.
5)Lastly please post a picture of your adapter.

With all of these questions answered it will be clear to everyone why and how your design works. Thanks.

-Brett Erskine

Also it looks like you have some heavy light fall off on the edges of your frame. Did you check to see that your camera is able to zoom in and focus on a 36mm X 24mm frame size area of the GG? If it is then the problem is that your PCX isnt fully correcting for the light fall off. You would need to get a PCX lens with a slightly shorter focal length to fix that. BTW how did you go about rotating the GG?

-Brett Erskine

one thing great about the spinning glass(cd) is that every frame has a new pattern of grain because it is spinning so I never have the effect of having a net infront of the screen

pcx is VERY VERY close to dvx lens I took the square lens plstic protector off the camera so that the pcx almost touches the dvx lens and the gg is I would say 5-10mm away from the pcx this way it enlarges the gg a bit. soooo get your pcx VERY close to camera lens and keep the gg a bit back and it works! I may end up using a +4 diopter to get that bit of balck off the screen in the corners but I only see that at full WIDE on the canon 28-135 zoom

how can I get a PL mount for this unit? I want to get old cine lenses for the unit

Lens: PCX, Dia: 59.70, Focal: 62,

and

Lens: PCX, Dia: 52.60, Focal: 80, Coated

is what I bought I used the focal 60 lens the focal80 had a hotspot

I have a PCX that I'm usingin instead of the two +10 (crappy) macros I bought off of Ebay and it appears to work as Obin says. I just can't seem to figure out a way to secure the PCX to the front of the DVX. It's a piece of glass, dia: 52.60mm Focal: 80mm. The distance that I have the flat side of the PCX from the DVX lens is the exact distance if you just rest the flat side of the PCX on the little plastic piece that's screwed on in front of the lens. THen the distace that seems to work for focusing on the GG is is to place the GG approx 13 to 15mm from the cameras 72mm filter threads. I have a quantray and tiffen 72m filter ring in between the camera and GG (which is one of those crappy macros I mentions with the flat side ground). I put a 35mm slide onto the GG to measure the areas that you can focus on at that distance and it appears to be between 34 and 36mm widthwise. My DVX focus is at 00 and my Zoom is 60. As soon as I can figure out a way to secure the piece of glass to that plastic piece, I can give you much more exact measurements... but the tests I've done seems to say these are very close.

John

I have the PCX flat side AWAY from the camera lens facing the GG...john why do you have it the other way?? how can that work?

thinking about dropping the PL idea and staying with the canon mount...I see a set of 28-80mm and 70-300mm Tamaron lenses on the net...any feedback good/bad on them? why would I NOT want to set down $180 for the set brand new?

does anyone have an easy way to flip the image BEFORE it hits the camera lens? I got this far...can't be too much harder can it?

Obin,

When you first posted today I dug around for those lenses I purchased a while back and started playing around. Putting the 52.60/80 flatside towards the DVX and resting on the plastic piece works perfectly for me. No hotspot, and no distortion. RIght now I'm just using double stick tpe to hold the lens on but I know that won't hold for long term use.

John

odd that did not work at all for me...it was all warped when looked at on a monitor...found what we all need to buy for our poor focus pullers using the 35mm lenses:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=180&item=5700645539&rd=1

Flipping the image upright in the optical path is not all that hard. It is however a costly exercise compared to making the Agus/Aldu alone.

You need two right-angle prisms with enough length on the hypotenuse face to accommodate two full frames of your groundglass image. To be safe you need 40mm prisms which give you about 52mm on the hypotenuse face which gives you enough for a standard academy aperture frame. For a 35mm still camera frame you might need to go to 50mm prisms.

These prisms are arranged in 90 degree opposition to each other as in a prismatic binocular or telescope ( porro prisms ). Image in is inverted. Image out is erected and the right way around.

The prisms are costly, heavy, have to be mounted and aligned precisely in a way which does not injure them through local pressures, shock loadings surface contamination or movement.
Surface coated mirrors are a less heavy alternative but also require the same precision and care.

A suits-all zoom-through optical path is less likely to evolve than for the Agus/Aldu adaptors themselves which are relatively simple.

The difficulty experienced in catering for the 72mm lens front-end camcorders illustrates the likely difficulties with a much more complex optical path.

(For small camcorders, the smaller CD-R disks spinning at a faster rate or small fixed filter/groundglasses would be more in keeping with their light wieght and user-friendliness.)

For image erecting, small 37mm front-end handicams might get away with a 30mm prism/mirror pair. A 40mm prism/mirror pair seems to suit the PD150/VX2000 camera family and possibly other camcorders with 52mm front lens diameters (filter attachment is 58mm, not the front lens element).

Whatever you use, the Aldu35 adaptors will no longer be a simple self-centering screw and glue affair because it will have a dog-leg shape.

Likewise for the Agus35 which will likely have to lose the CD-R case which was the original attraction because of its low cost and simplicity.

For the sake of erecting the image into the camcorder, which we can correct in post, there may be an extra penalty of furthur definition and light loss. Do we really want to go there?

I do but then I am possibly a glutton for punishment. When I have my arrangement sorted I will advise. My initial thoughts are to use fine-grained craftwood to hold the prisms, rather than metal because of the wood's cushioning effect and easy workability. There's lots of cutting an shaping to do. For mirrors a folded sheetmetal arrangement would work but for prisms it would not.

Good luck.

ouch! maybe post will have to do...OR shoot upside down ;)

Has anyone here tried using an Aspheric PCX lens as a condenser? I'm curious about the quality of one of those and if it beats a spherical PCX.

Shooting upside-down with one's back (and fat backside when bending over to a low mounted viewfinder) towards the subject is quite workable after practice and getting used to operating the controls in the new position. The hardest part is the passing public and their questions.

The Agus/Aldu plus camcorder combination is a little more tricky to set up and maintain quality with under pressure of any live event, so a sound recordist or camera assistant is desirable.

Obin can you post a picture of your adapter? Also how did you create your ground glass? Are you using aluminum oxide?

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : does anyone have an easy way to flip the image BEFORE it hits the camera lens? I got this far...can't be too much harder can it? -->>>

i think you can find many different solutions in static solution thread

check this link

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18690

and many different solutions are somehow mentioned also in aldu/adus thread or in discussion about upside down monitor solutions. take a closer look.
think about porro prisms or roof prism with amici prism. but then you are closer to the mini35 then to aldu due to physical limitation of those solutions (they are not in straight line like aldu)

filip

Regarding the image flipping... this was mentioned once before in a post by someone... I've always found it interesting and wonder why it's not been mentioned more as a viable solution.

http://www.leadtools.com/SDK/Multimedia/Direct-Show-Filters/Multimedia-DirectShow-Rotate.htm

Due to the real-time effects in most editors now, many users have decided that flipping the image in-camera isn't very necessary or worth the extra time and money. That program does look handy, but will be soon outdated, if not already.

Agreed that inc amera flipping isn't ideal for this kind of project. But capturing the footage flipped would at the very least save you time at final render. Now if there are as you say other tools that have or are about to surpass this piece of software in affordability and accessability, then the members of this forum need know about them. That's what we're here for. Till we know what else is out there all we can work with is the best of what we have.

John

I called up the website but with my browser and slow landline (785bps to 5k), the computer started going in circles before it managed to download the page, so I didn't perservere.

This is my first post, first off, big props to aldu and alain for their contributions, simply incredible. Secondly, Ive built both versions, just finished my static and have a couple of pictures (short clip as well), who can I send these to for all to see?

Thanks

Pat

There's a number of people here who might host images who may reply to your request. If you email Chris Hurd at :-

"chris@dvinfo.net"

with a request, he may set up an address here which might look like :-

"www.dvinfo.net/media/worrell" or similar. I have been posting my bits and pieces here through his favour by sending via email attachments.

My stuff is at an archive at :-

"www.dvinfo.net/media/hart". If viewed by date it might give you an idea of how the image quality evolves. Lately it has taken a step backwards as I have been experimenting with glass disks.

I built a platform which holds my spinning glass adapter and a mounting device which holds the camcorder up to the adapter upside down. I use an external monitor during recording, so I get image through the adapter on tape and on monitor while viewing which is optically correct. Works well.

Back on page 56 of this thread, Damion Luaiye mentioned that if we got 50 orders, we might be able to get custom focus screens made.

Has there been any more news about this? I'd love to see some tests -- I'd even send someone a few bucks via PayPal to help pay for materials -- because if it looks good, I'd be interested in buying several of these.

Specifically, I'd like to see how it looks on a 720p HD camera like the one that Obin Olson is working on.

I'd love to build one of these adapters, but I have back and neck problems, so grinding a piece of glass for 2+ hours does not sound like fun. :-)

The present hurdle: Beattie screens use fresnel lenses and the Beattie folks need a focal length spec (distance from eye to screen). With all of the distance variations and diopter configurations we have in our rigs I was unsure what length to give - any suggestions?

Meantime, today I mounted a Nikon type D, unmarked matte screen into a 55 mm ring. It's the only completely unmarked view screen I've been able to find - $22. The grain is finer than anything I've yet produced and is completely uniform, but the screen is a bit of a pain to mount and presumably will need frequent slight adjustment to maintain alignment.

A filter ring sized screen would be great. I haven't had a chance to try to test a full size Beattie screen in the hopes of determining the appropriate focal length - hopefully next week.

- Damion

RE: DRESSING AND GRINDING DISKS.

I have been scheming and planning for means of cheaply automating the process. The machine is yet to be completed and the following is all unproven theory.

So far it looks like being a gemstone tumbler style thing :-

1 x washing machine AC pump motor.

1 x automotive engine water pump. - or -
1 x automotive power steer pump.

1 x oversize elastic band or flat drive belt.

1 x 50 disk CD-R case outer cover.

1 x 25 disk CD-R case outer cover.

1 x 25 disk CD-R case inner spindle. (Pillar cut off).

Several scrapped CD-R disks for spacers.

One custom brass donut shaped roller, with deep concentric grooves cut in it about 2mm (1/16") apart.

1 x door hinge.

3 x pieces of chipboard or scrap ply panel.

Assortment of screws gutter bolts etc..

METHOD:

Water pump or power steer pump is mounted by its bolt-holes to a wooden panel. A clearance hole may have to be cut out for the impeller.

The 50 disk CD-R outer is mounted to the pulley with bolts or screws. Use sealer or contact adhesive on the heads to lock them.

The washing machine pump motor is mounted to drive the water pump or power steer pump with a flat belt straight off the motor shaft like a flat belt turntable. (The plastic pump housing, seal and impeller will have to be removed. The plastic seal retainer may be an integral part of the motor and have to be retained for mounting purposes.)

The timber panel is mounted to a base plate with the door hinge. The third piece of timber is a prop. Another door hinge could be used and nails or screws used to make a ledge for the edge of this to hold the main panel at the correct angle.

The whole thing will look like a small cement mixer.

The CD-R 25 disk outer case will slip inside the 50 disk outer case. They are handily tapered. It needs to be removable as it will wear out. The spindle with its pillar cut off is now a lid.

The spacer disks may have to have the centres cut out and stacked until the centre hub of the CD-R case no longer touches an entire disk and the disk will sit flat and steady. These might best be glued in place.

The glass disk sits on top of them.

The brass donut rolls along the face of the glass disk in a polish slurry. The tilt angle has to be adjustable for best pressure versus the disk continuing to roll smoothly. The tilt must also be there to keep the slurry pool inside not on the floor.

My version uses a Ford 6 cylinder automotive water pump. This yields about 70 rpm with an AC 50hz electric washing machine pump motor driving off a 4mm approx shaft. For 60 Hz motors, the larger power steer pump puley may be need to keep the drum speed down. Buick V6 water pumps have a larger pulley but may be more awkward to mount.

All the automotive water pumps are doing is providing a bearing, a pulley and something with bolt holes in it to mount it with.

For the Aldu disks, a much smaller drum, maybe a small plastic food jar with a pressed lid and a smaller donut would be needed. For contact pressure the donut might have to be thicker for weight. In both examples the donut should not cover more than about 5/8th of the disk diameter otherwise the rolling action will become erratic.

The motor and pumps should be found in waste bins at repair shops. Whilst components essential to their function as pumps may have become completely ruined, often the bearings and the electric motor in the case of the washing machine pump remains serviceable. Do not wire the motor up yourself but have a qualified electrician do it for you.

No warranty of satifactory performance is made either express or implied.

<<<-- Originally posted by Damion Luaiye : The present hurdle: Beattie screens use fresnel lenses and the Beattie folks need a focal length spec (distance from eye to screen). With all of the distance variations and diopter configurations we have in our rigs I was unsure what length to give - any suggestions?
- Damion -->>>

It might be better to discuss that with there engineer. I imagine that a standard screen could be made but custom interfacing optics might be needed for each rig (as presently is done from camera to camera). But does anybody here know allready, and has anybody bought that SLR Beattie focus screen to try out?

I have some good news (but I am too snowed under to look it up). I seem to remember in the information on Sony's HAD/hyperhad?? that they use a small microlense screen over the sensor to concentrate light on the pixels. Somebody was talking about this in the formum recently, that reminded me. If they can build them this small we should be able to get this finess too, even HD. So who makes them for Sony (Beattie could probably match this).

Damion-
Post frame grabs from your setup with the Nikon D screen

Wayne-
Is the "Sony Had/hyperhad" screen made up of a layer of micro lenses or is it simply super fine ground glass?

Bob-
You crack me up. Carry on man!

Brett.

I try to please. As to the tumbler idea, in another lifetime, I did once polish gemstones (lapidary). Using junked autoparts might be one of two things, intellectual laziness or inspired genius. The washing machine pump motor comes from a Hoover Premiere, the original fitted. The replacement is an altered design.

Once I get the polishing trick sorted, I want to use the tumbler with small loose bearing balls and dry 5 micron powder or 3 micron if I can find it, to attempt to create a finer frosted glass surface, ie., light contact pressure, hopefully a stamping action instead of a scratching action and hopefully a finer groundglass.

FYI I just took a normal cd-r NOT the spacer type and sanded the top layer off...now it's a better then spacer-type GG because the cd-r is a higher quality then the cd-r spacer! I took my small orbit sander and did away with the top coating..works great

Hi everyone


I am posting a link to the finished agus 35 . I made it with 1500
grit ground glass, purchased from a optical company. www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor

this is a link to the ground glass
this may be good enough for high def
http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg211&Category_Code=Filters+%26+Apertures





the part number is 099-0160

just took a quick look couldnt find any previous answer to my question so here it goes...

Im shooting a movie this summer with the static lens attached to my camera, i would like to use it in conjuction with a glidceam, has anyone done this? I do not have the glidecam to test right now, but i was wondering if the added weight to the front of the camera made it impossible to do. (obviously i would need to counterweight it in some fashion, but with all this additional weight it makes me think it may make it extremely difficult to operate) Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks

Pat

If you are using the hand held version I would start working out. It is not for the out of shape.

1500 grit actually isn't as fine as it sounds. This webpage (http://www.facetingmachines.com/grit-mesh-micron.shtml) provides a grit-mesh-micron conversion chart that shows how 1500 grit is only about 10 micron. Many users have ground their glass with 5 and even 3 micron (equivalent of 4500 and 8000 grit) and can still see grain using a static adapter and standard definition camcorder.

Obin

Sanding off the top layer. That option works fine except for the disk having a green tint which has to be manually white-balanced out. Not a big deal but it is there.

Pat.

You might examine finding the new centre of balance point with the Camcorder/Aldu assembly, then getting a piece of 3/16" aluminium flat bar, for fastening to your camcorder's tripod bolt-hole, then drilling and tapping a new threaded tripod mount hole and keyhole in the flatbar at the new point of balance. This also may enable you to also get a better lateral balance point. Some cams have tripod mount holes offset to one side.

I made three pieces of ground glass all handmade , and one acid etched, this is the best one so far. It cost 23 dollars

<<<-- Originally posted by Richard Mellor : I made three pieces of ground glass all handmade , and one acid etched, this is the best one so far. It cost 23 dollars -->>>

maybe i'm confused - but WHICH ONE is the best so far? 1500 or acid etched?

filip

Hi everyone
this is the link to the ground glass. the part number is 099-0160


http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg211&Category_Code=Filters+%26+Apertures






this is link to the agus35 with the optosigma ground glass
www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor

Pat I have shot with our steadycam and the mini35 on the front that I made with the spinning cd works great BUT you need a focus puller to get any good shots at all unless you dont move aobut much and shoot the subject the same distance from the camera the whole shot

have a look at: http://arco.acromedia.de/ than go to projekte and select mini60 - filmlookadapter

tell me what is your opinion about the system - except of that the last shot was much too dark.

dietmar

thank you dietmar for the clips. does the boscreen reduce
the light or was it shot that way? as we always want to know.
what was used for the ground glass

WOW this is one of the longest threads I have ever seen. I was trying to search through the post but there are just too many. What I am looking for is instructions. If any one has a step by step how I would love to see it.

Thanks in advance
Michael Moore