Only on this forum have I heard of problems with Sony tapes but then this is the only Canon forum I visit, so maybe it's just a Canon/Sony issue. I've been using the Sony "Premium" tape since I bought my 2 new XL1s' about a year ago. I don't remember glitches until recently but now I get them every few seconds (on both cams). I've run a Panasonic head cleaner several times in them but it doesn't help at all.
It doesn't seem likely that both cams would get funky heads ( out of alignment or whatever they do when they need service)at the same time but they are used commercially.
I was thinking of trying Sony "Excellence" but was wondering if I should just stay away from Sony altogether. I mean if there is some kind of metal ( " Metal Evaporated Tape, a Diamond-Like Carbon coating protective layer which improves durability and helps prevent shedding and drop out....) that they use that just doesn't get along with Canon heads.
What would you do?
TIA,
Randy

I usually use TDK tapes and now, after 2 years of work, I started to have glitches too (big square pixel and a audio noise in the same point of those squares).
I brought it to canon service last week and they said me that they have to change drum head (I don't know if it is the right name in english... sorry for this).
Cost is 246 Euro.
I used Sony premium tapes several times when I bought XL1-S in 2001, and I never had problems with them.
bye

My wife's cousin only uses Fuji in his 2 XL1 cams because he's found that it gives him no trouble. I can't recall the other brands he's tried (when he first got into the wedding videography and photography business).

G. Randy Brown,
If in fact they are used commercially, I would suggest they be sent to Canon once a year for thorough factory cleaning and adjustment. Join the XL Series Owners Club (free) and the cost is only $95 at the New Jersey repair facility...they just finished one of my Xl1s...completed in 3 business day and shipped back to me overnight.

As it been discussed many times on here....find a tape and stick with it....the worst thing you can subject a cam to is switching tape brands (or plan to switch after they return from the factory service)

>>As it been discussed many times on here....find a tape and stick with it....the worst thing you can subject a cam to is switching tape brands (or plan to switch after they return from the factory service)<<
If I switch it would be the same brand but a "higher grade" that costs almost twice as much. As I recall I joined that club when I registered the cams so thanks I'll remember to take advantage of that deal.
I guess what I was hoping for is for someone that could tell me if pixellation could be caused by misaligned heads or not (or if misaligned heads just cause those horizontal strips like on VHS), or someone saying "you're not using a Panasonic head cleaner are you" or "maybe you're holding your mouth wrong... : )
Anyway, I too have heard the XL1s needs a tune up once a year so I reckon I'll check into that today.
Thanks guys,
Randy

Hey Mark, do you remember how to contact the club? I can't seem to find a phone number or address at this http://www.canondv.com/xl1owners/ address, only how to join the club.
Thanks for your patience,
Randy

Navigating to the sign-up area isn't real straightforward....however...this link should take you straight to the online registration page....
http://ereturn.usa.canon.com/general/XLOwnersClub/frame.htm

Actually Mark, I registered when I bought the cams, I just can't find a phone number at that site ( I'd like to call them first).
Sorry if I wasn't clear, it's pretty early for me : )
Randy

No problem Randy....

Canon U.S.A., Inc.
Factory Service Center
100 Jamesburg Road
Jamesburg, NJ 08831
Tel: (732) 521-7007

BTW, if your not a member the factory service cost is $250...members $95...pretty good deal....

Much thanks Mark!
Randy

Randy,
I realize your in NM and the address/PH# was for the east coast facility...but the west coast charges a whole bunch more with a horrible turn around time.....

Coincidentally, I was going to call that number to get the CA address but won't bother now...thanks for the heads up.
Randy

Just in case there are any other knuckleheads besides me following this post, I want to pass on the brilliant discovery that I made this morning. I use a prosumer mini DV/VHS deck (figured it out yet?) to use with an external TV monitor and to dump my raw footage into my computer. I was editing something and saw a glitch on the timeline, I loaded the original tape into the deck and found the spot where the glitch was on the timeline; no glitch. So I guess the XL1s' didn't create the glitch but the deck does on playback...right?
I'll try to clean the heads one more time and if I still get the glitches I'll send the deck in.

Randy

This knucklehead just tuned in. I'm a card-carrying XL1s member, so I wonder why it still costs me $250 every time I have my cameras serviced over here in the West? That's quite a cost difference.

You're right, Randy--it's the deck causing the problem. There's an old thread somewhere around here where we talked about it. I ran into the same problem. Interesting that other tapes from other cams worked with the deck just fine--only our Sony's used in our cameras glitched.

We decided there's an incompatibility somewhere--maybe between the way the XL1s heads are aligned--so we've given up on using a deck and just capture from the cameras. Works like a charm, and by the time we wear out the heads on the cams we'll be ready for something new anyway.

By the way, we didn't notice an improvement with Sony Excellence on the deck, so I wouldn't pay the extra money unless you're doing close work (not events, etc.).

Randy, was the the glitch you saw something like this?
http://www.sundevilpictures.com/artifact.jpg

I have a brand new JVC VS30U dual mini-DV SVHS deck.

I captured 4 hours worth of Act II footage, and there they were, about once every two minutes or so.

They appear on footage from three different cams (GL-2 and Optura Pi) and I have never seen them before. (They are not on Act I, and those were captured using the cams).

And another thing. At about the five hour mark, when I was previewing some footage shot on Fuji 80 minute tapes (my normal tape is TDK). I got a "Use Cleaning Cassette" message.

So I am bummed about this. The problem isn't terrible, but then I don't want to watch little "flowers" on my footage for the next four years either........

-Tom-

>>Randy, was the the glitch you saw something like this?<<

Yes, but worse; I could live with that example (if it didn't last for more than a few frames of course).

>>The problem isn't terrible, but then I don't want to watch little "flowers" on my footage for the next four years either........<<

I decided that it's unacceptable when I had a client ask what it was. I bought it to save wear and tear on the cams but $800 seems a bit steep just to use as a converter for viewing an external monitor. It's still under "warranty" so I guess I'd better start digging through my receipts.

Randy/Tom:

I'm including verbiage from my thread in the XL1 area about the JVC VS30U (Mine is at JVC right now):

I got this from a JVC rep...
" The problem Mr. Foley has (he sent a still frame to show it) is a very specific problem that few have.

We have taken the decks to other NLE systems and they work fine.

We have exchanged decks and the new decks show the same errors when hooked to the customer's NLE.

These errors are different from the common DV errors or as some call it pixelization. Those errors have several causes.

What Mr. Foley is seeing seems to relate to the grounding environment between the deck and the particular computer. This is why so few people have this problem.

We have a modification that can improve it but not eliminate it since the computer itself is likely related somehow to the problem.

The symptoms are twofold:
1. the errors are misshaped data blocks mostly occuring on edges in the image and are usually fo only one or two frames and usually only every couple minutes or so.
2. they occur when 1394 is connected. In otherwords, if you play a tape with the 1394 disconnected and watch carefully you will not see the errors, but when you connect the 1394 and play the same tape, if you watch very carefully you will see the errors go by even if you are just playing back and not digitizing.

We are continuing to try to solve this but it is rather rare and hard to pin down."

JVC appears at this point to think it is a somewhat rare problem...but I suspect it is a bigger problem than they think.

I would suggest you contact Ken Freed at JVC to get your deck problems (hopefully) resolved. Mine is currently being modified at no cost to me.

Ken Freed JVC
1700 Valley Road
Wayne, NJ 07470
(800) 526-5308 x5419
kfreed@jvc.com

Very interesting, informative, and helpful Mark. Thanks very much I'll contact him today!
BTW, what NLE do you use? I use Sonic Foundry's (now Sony Pictures') Vegas but have never heard of this issue on the Vegas forum (where I hang out a lot).
Thanks again,
Randy

I'm also a Vegas user (I'm actually rendering a vegas project while I'm typing this)....this is OT slightly for Vegas...as this issue would manifest itself across all NLEs. Good luck Randy!

Randy,

Just so you know, the deck we bought was the same as yours. The 1394 cable was ruled out as a problem; we tried five different cables on four different computers, locations, etc.--WITH the dealer who sold us the deck, discussed it extensively with a JVC rep, and was left scratching his head-- so I don't really buy the explanation from JVC.

I think you're still on the right track in trying to return the deck, regardless of what's causing the problem. We managed to get ours returned through the dealer. Good luck.

Lorinda,
My feeling (and by no way am I an electrical engineer) is stray voltage is getting into the 1394 connection and causing these intermitent problems. I was told by someone on the Cow forum to contact Ken...as he was the only one that would probably give a straight answer...although he is still sure it is a JVC/computer grounding issue...and one that only manifests itself very rarely. It may well be...but the JVC deck must be the prime fault here. It appears it is quite a common problem...I'm just glad JVC has agreed to fix it at no cost (although they don't gaurentee this will fix the problem).

So did your problem clear up after the unit was exchanged...or did you go with another type of deck?
Mark

I think I could rule out the NLE since I've seen it occur without my Video PC even on.
Thanks y'all, I think I'll exchange it.
Randy

Randy,
Hope the exchange works....because if the problem is inherent with the design of the JVC power supply...you may be getting another one in the same condition.
Mark

Hi Mark,

I feel for them at JVC because we never pinned down the problem either. The dealer bypassed the computer and watched on a monitor; the deck worked beautifully with various-brand tapes shot in other cameras. Only when he tried our Sony tapes shot in our XL1s's (two cams) did the glitches show up. We even tested a Panasonic tape shot on a GL2 to see if it was trouble with Canon cams--looked great. As for the cable connection, I'm sorry that I don't remember what he used to connect the deck to the monitor, though I'm pretty sure he wasn't running a 1394 from the deck. Even if he did, why would the other tapes look fine? I did a search for the thread where we discussed this last summer but didn't find it.

We were left to assume the problem lay with the XL1s heads, but after re-reading Tom's post I see that he uses a GL2 and sees glitches. What a puzzle!

We didn't buy another deck--just use our cams for now and haven't had a problem.

Lorinda,
The problem rarely manifest itself when just "playing" through the deck to a monitor..just when you go to capture. In all honesty to JVC, this problem has cropped up with others just using their camera on its A/C adapter. ..but when they switch to just a battery on the same camera, no problems. So in some ways it might not be totatlly a JVC-only fault...although it is still a bad actor.

I will try and quantify the problem over the weekend and take some screen captures.

I wonder what the modification was that JVC is doing?

-Tom-

We use Vegas too! It's the one thing we all have in common. Tom, could you be onto something? Mark, do you know definitively that "this issue would manifest itself across all NLE's?"

edit: credit where it's due-- it's Randy who first mentioned Vegas. :)

Since this is basically a problem that manifest itself during capture, it wouldn't really matter to the clip what NLE your using.....

The modification is in the deck's power supply circuitry....

Yeah, you're probably right. I just remembered that we thought of checking NLE's so tried it on another--though same computer--and still saw glitches.

Back to the drawing board...

Lorinda,
you mentioned Tom being on to something....what?



:-)

Oh, I was thinking that Vegas may be a culprit after all, but we just killed that theory.

One thing that still stumps me: Why did our tapes, randomly selected and tested, show glitches--both captured clips AND playback through the deck to a monitor?

I can be pretty dense, but it still seems like the above test blows the 1394 theory as well. Capture or no capture, our tapes still had problems through the deck.

I'd forgotten about all this till I stumbled across this thread--now I'm curious all over again! :)

One of the things Ken (from JVC) stressed to me from the onset...that the problem isn't consistent in how it shows its ugly head. For me... using the same tape (sony tape with XL1s) that originally showed the mosaic problem...I first put it into an old JVC camera (on power supply)....still got the glitches...used the same camera on battery power...no problems. This is just my equipment...and yours maybe different.

Grounding Differential problems to which JVC claim is the real problem are hard to eliminate....

That was, indeed, an interesting test.

Tom, I'm assuming you'll try capturing with your camera on battery power in your tests this weekend?

Just FYI:
Someone here may have mentioned a grounding problem but after talking with Ken of JVC today it makes sense to me that it does have something to do with the firewire connecting to the PC and nothing to do with cameras, NLEs, or tapes. As I recall I have never seen the glitches when just reviewing a tape on the TV it's connected to (via the analog connections) ; it's only after a capture that I've noticed it. Regardless he has asked me to run a test and send the unit in (turnaround of 10 days not including shipping time) with the results and they will attempt a modification (I'm guessing to ground something internally).

The test:
1) Watch for glitches (for at least 5 minutes) on the TV (via the analog connections) during my next transfer.

2) run a tape for at least 5 minutes and view on TV to check for glitches without the firewire connected to the computer.

BTW, (I don't know if this is relevant or not but) I've tested my electrical outlets before, and even though they are the 3 prong style they are not double grounded.
I'll try to get a chance to run the test tomorrow and report back
Randy

Randy,
I was the one theat mentioned a grounding potential problem...it was Ken at JVC would originaly passed that on to me....please let us know what your further tests results are.....

FYI...
I just got off the phone with JVC...told me it would be over a month before my unit could see a technician....at least it is not going to cost me anything...thankfully......

I sure got spoiled with Canon and there 3 business day turn around....

I transferred 7 minutes of a mini DV yesterday that was recorded on a 3 year old XL1. It was for a client that wanted some DVD copies of a promo video produced by another company that sent me the tape and coincidentally it was a JVC 60ME brand tape... As I was dumping the footage I did not notice one glitch on the TV hooked up via analog and the captured video had no glitches either....hmmmm...I know we're not supposed to mix and match tapes but I wonder if it's worth a shot.
Randy

I'm beginning to believe you're right...as my problems appear to be Sony releated. Bummer...I have a wedding tommorow and alll the tape stock has already been bought....

Well I have about 20 tapes (Sony) in stock right now but I'll gladly sell them on Ebay at 2-3 dollars each if this resolves my problem. I've read that Sony's are the only tapes that use a liquid lubricant (as opposed to dry) so maybe that has something to do with it (although people on the Vegas forum have reported the problem with Panasonic and Fuji....but, but, but never JVC).
Anyway, I just now ordered one JVC tape (I live in a rural area and haven't seen anything available but Sony) and see what happens...I'll report my findings. BTW, the JVC tapes are actually a little cheaper than the Sonys.
Thanks Mark...keep your fingers crossed!
Randy

Well I have decided to keep the VS30U.

I got a new computer for video editing, and the problem seems to be reduced (eliminated?) on the new machine, an eMachines Celeron box with an add-in SIIG Firewire card.

But:
- The machine hates Fuji ME 80 minute tapes. I get "Use Head Cleaner" messages after less than 5 minutes with these tapes.
- Audio is problematic, at least on tapes recorded on EP mode on one of my Canon Optura Pi's.
- There is no machine control over the SVHS side of the deck.
- The manual is of no help in setting up the machine for use as an adjunct to a computer editing system. I did find the information I needed on the Vegas Video forum on the Sony website.

I also tried recording in VHS-ET mode. The tapes have extremely poor playback in a standard VHS deck. So I use just standard VHS. I was hoping that the machine could produce higher quality tapes for viewing on standard VHS decks, but I guess is not to be.

-Tom-

I used my Canon GL-2 to transfer the Fuji tapes and the TDK tape with the (for the VS30U) problematic audio. (On the VS30U there were whistles and sqeaks up high, and several large audio transients that would also mess up the video for a couple of frames.)

All video and audio was flawless using the GL-2, even though it was EP mode and some of the tapes were recorded on different cameras.

-Tom-

Randy/others

I got a call yesterday from JVC concerning my deck at the service center. They have decided to send me a new unit. THey want to keep my deck as a research item. After speaking with the technician, he mentioned possible problems with Sony Premium/Excellence tapes. I couldn't get him to recommend any other brand...but I should consider getting away from sony-type dv tape....

I too think it has something to do with Sony tapes; as you'll recall I captured a JVC tape without a single glitch. I ordered the same style, duration JVC tape last week but still haven't received it ( I had the wrong exp. date for my credit card which delayed shipping until yesterday) but will let you know the results when I do.
You gotta hand it to JVC for their service though, after reading your post on JVC telling you it would be a month before a tech could even look at it I called Ken Freed to let him know I had read it on the forum and asked if that would be the case when I send mine in. He said he was not aware of such a delay and assured me that they would get to it right away (it could have something to do with you getting a new one). Not only that but he gave me their FedEx number and asked me to overnight my unit at their expense!
Maybe our efforts here are paying off!
Anyway let's be sure to report back with our results okay?
Thanks Mark,
Randy

...will do....

I just received a call from JVC Repair and they will be sending me a new unit also, so that they can send my old one to "research". The techs seem to be blaming the Sony tapes (actually any tape that uses a wet lubricant). I think I'm going to clean the heads of my XL1s' and switch to JVC ME and keep my fingers crossed.
Randy

I was at a trade show yesterday in South San Francisco and told the JVC rep there (Brian Rutz) about my problems with my new VS30U.

Brian had not heard about any problems with the glitches (stars and bars I called them) when capturing thru firewire. I told him it was a hot topic in at least two online fora and that Ken Freed was tracking it. "Yes, he's my East Coast counterpart".

I told him about the refusal of the machine to input the Fuji AME 80 minute tapes, with the "Use Head Cleaner" message. Brian's response was that the VS30U was a professional level machine with professional level heads and transport mechanism. As such it was more finicky about doing things right than consumer level goods such as my Canon GL-2. "It may be fine for Aunt Mabel to tape her nephew's birthday party, but it is not professional grade", and as such allows a lot more slop than the JVC machine. The problem apparently is that the thinner tape base of the 80 minute tape holds a weaker magnetic field. This weaker magnetic field is interpreted by the VS30U as a need to clean the heads. Also the Canon cameras, especially the XL1s, do not keep a tight alignment on the track that the magnetic field is written to, and this can also cause problems for the JVC professional decks.

Brian's bottom line: Never use 80 minute tapes, never use LP mode, and if you are using TDK tapes from Costco, good luck to you, they are junk tapes cut from the very outside edges of the 1 meter wide strip of mylar on which the magnetic coating is deposited.

All I have to say is, "Thank God for Aunt Mabel and her consumer grade GL-2". It allowed me to import three Fuji AME 80 minute tapes recorded in LP mode containing an hour and 38 minute Act I with no dropouts among the three. Two of the tapes were recorded on Optura Pi's, one on the GL-2.

Act II was only 55 minutes long and was recorded on those Costco TDK tapes in LP mode. The VS30U did successfully import two of the three, and I have only noticed on frame so far with the glitches in Act II. So while the glitches problem still exists using the new computer, it is MUCH reduced. If you have this problem, try switching computers, cables, Firewire cards, etc. to see if that helps.

-Tom-

While I was at the trade show I stopped at the Maxell media booth, Fuji media booth, and Sony media booth and asked the reps "Does your mini-DV tapes use wet or dry lubricants, and which should I be using in my camera?"

None of them knew. While I was talking to the Fuji rep, the media sales person for Snader & Associates joined the conversation. "Everyone asks me that question, and I don't know what to tell them", she said. So she didn't know either.

There seems to be a huge amount of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about this and ZERO reliable hard information.

FWIW I did learn from the Snader rep that Fuji makes the Panasonic and JVC mini-DV's as well as there own brand.

-Tom-

FWIW, as I mentioned above, the techs were wanting to blame the Sony tapes but no such luck in my test. I really had my hopes up too after seeing no glitches on the one JVC tape I captured from an associates' XL1 recorded tape.
Anyway, I bought a JVC tape and the problem persists.
Very discouraging, looks like we may have bought ourselves a very expensive simple D/A converter.
Randy

Well I am keeping mine, it does too much that I need done to send it back with no alternatives.

With the new computer the problem is perhaps every 10 minutes instead of every 1 minute, so I can live with it.

Try swapping Firewire cards, cables, etc. and see if anything helps.

-tom-