The frames were cropped from grabs (no resampling).
The HD-1 creates black borders around the white letters in the STOP sign where there are none. This has been discussed before , but I think this shows the difference a bit more clearly.

Here's the link: http://www.videosaurus.com/~kennett/HD1-10.JPG

Thanks to Andres Lucero for the link.

Thanks for the comparison David.
The HD-10 image is darker. Were the settings on the cams the same or were both done in Auto modes?
The HD1 picture seems to be a little more detailed (check the grass and the bricks) than the HD10.
Ken.

HD1's shot--is that from the edge enhancement?

heath

Ken - They were in auto mode - and HD10 is darker. You're right, other things look crisper (maybe not more detailed). The problem is that most new TV sets also add some edge enhancement. So how much does the camera manufacturer add? I prefer adding a little sharpness to frame grabs from the HD10. (Although none was done here).

Heath - yes, black edges are from edge enhancement. They show up other places too, such as a tree line against a bright sky. There will be a dark border on the trees where they meet the sky. Edge enhancement can really make a picture look crisp - but it has to be done very carefully.

That's something I wouldn't really like, edge enhancement.

heath

Heath - the HD10 has edge enhancement too. (all cameras have it). In my view, the HD10 was done with more finesse - the HD1 was a bit heavy-handed.

Okay, correction: I don't want "heavy handed" edge enhancement! :-)

heath

Possibly a lamo question from an HD ignoramus:
Why would HD need any kind of edge enhancement?
Isn't it crystal clear enough?
Wouldn't any sort of enhancement stand out from the clarity of HD as noise?
It makes no sense.

Shawn

DSR PDX10

My friend Jon mentioned that on the HD1, it makes sense, because the consumer would want that sort of thing.

heath

Can the EE on the HD10 be dialed out/down the way Sharpness on my PDX10 can? Sharpness makes a mess out of SD, I can't believe people find this sort of thing to be an improvement of images.

It's interesting to note that the extra sharpening on the HD1 is not done on vertical edges. Looks like scan line based processing, as opposed to a true area operation. ( less CPU needed ).
Look at the stop sign left and right edges. Same.

BTW, sharpening is pretty much done to all footage, including 35mm film scans. Done correctly, it is used to compensate for optical path losses. Kodak film equipment used to call it 'Aperture correction'.
-Les

Can you put them both in manual mode and then do a comparison, no sharpening, 1/4 scale, 1/2 scale sharpening. The shot you chose has a range of shadow valuess it would be nice if there were some range of whites.

A lot of cameras also have sharpening just for red.

I could also provide you with an 8X10 grayscale and resolution chart.

The ringing is definately due to edge enhancement but this parameter should be be controllable.

I have some nice cameras but I'm looking at getting one of the HDs

it is obvious the grab of hd1 is wider than the hd10, did you shoot at different resolution?and what happened to that thingy on the left of the stop sign? it is behind the sign on hd1, and jump over to the front on hd10?
if you want to compare, compare on the same setting.

James - I would suggest you read up on these cameras features. You are demmanding things that are not possible.

Diu - "if you want to compare, compare on the same setting"
He did, both in auto mode.

Ken

No manual mode. Doesn't seem possible,

sorry, dumb rich kids question. i've never owned a camera that didn't cost $2000 or more.

I'm just catching up and seeing that many are disappointed in this shortcoming especially on the "pro" model.

<<<-- Originally posted by James Ball : No manual mode. Doesn't seem possible,

sorry, dumb rich kids question. i've never owned a camera that didn't cost $2000 or more.

I'm just catching up and seeing that many are disappointed in this shortcoming especially on the "pro" model. -->>>

What do you mean by "dumb rich kids." Just curious. Many may be disappointed with the lack of true manual controls on the HD10, but the image more than makes up for it.

heath

Yes there are a few features, or lack of, that are disapointing. This camera isn't so much a matter of what it can't do, but what it can do. Certain features were not allowed for marketing reasons. But its still the best thing going right now!

Ken

Well said, Ken!

heath

Now if someone could only "crack" the EEPROM on the HD1 or HD10, we'd be in business...

My real question is this. For those of you who have been fortunate to have used both the HD1 and HD10, can you describe the edge enhancement of the HD10 as being the same all around as the edge enhancement of the HD1 in the vertical direction (i.e. not much).

I'm selling my HD1 because the horizontal edge enhancement is TOTALLY out of control. It is very visible, especially if you get the sky in any of your shots. I took footage of snow landscapes and of AM radio towers. They are not watcheable (at least to me). I'd love to see some real HD10 footage of a tower against the sky, or of trees against a snow covered background, etc.

Funny thing is that the tower I'm referring to was WHITE and red! So the EE went nuts doing white on light blue. The red parts were fine... The white all turned into black horizontal lines. The EE really does look like it is horizontal edges only.

Oh, try a Christmas tree... That's a total mess on the HD1 too... It tries to enhance the lights and turns them all into little blobs of white surrounded by black. I tried different exposure settings, etc. Couldn't get it to stop that.

I'm trying to figure out whether I should grab the HD10 after I get my HD1 sold, or simply wait. I come from a TRV900, which I think is too soft, especially now that I've had a taste of HD... I still have the TRV900 since it is such a beautiful thing.

OK, I'm rambling. Is there anyone who is unhappy with the amount of edge enhancement on the HD10?

Thanks for the input!

- GLupien

Gordon,

What type of video system are you watching the footage on? I have a 55" 1080i capable HDTV ISF calibrated set and I just viewed some of my HD1 footage on a 50" 720p DLP set today that wasn't calibrated and I'm not really seeing a big problem with the edge enhancement issue. I've done Christmas trees, mountain ranges in CA and NV and I've yet to see the overabundance that everyone else sees. I wonder if the upconversion to 1080i by the camera has any bearing on the magnification of the edge enhancement?

Maybe I have a slightly higher tolerance or something but I'm not sure. I do know that I can pick out edge enhancement on just about any DVD I watch because I'm tuned into it moreso. I know that Episode I: The Phantom Menace DVD is horridly riddled with edge enhancement.

Then again I'm not intending to use my HD1 for anything other than typical "family" stuff so I guess as long as that suites me I'm fine.

Now if someone could only "crack" the EEPROM on the HD1 or HD10, we'd be in business...

You hit the nail on the head with that one! Either that or access to the service menu. :)

Troy

Yes, Episode 1 is bad, but what I see from the GR-HD1 is much much worse. You have to have the right conditions for it to happen. I've filmed skylines and other things fine too, but every now and then the camera goes wild. It seems to happen when you have a contrasty step between two light shades. You then get BLACK between the two light shades, and more than a couple pixels wide.

I haven't experimented with editing too much, and I just got Vegas, but I have no time, so if someone can tell me how to extract a frame from the MPEG stream, I'll post a few on my website, so you can see what I mean. I know, RTFM, but just tell me if there's a way to capture a frame from tape and store it to the SD card, or whatever...

What do I use to view? I use an Electrohome 9500LC projector projecting a 115" 16:9 image on a DaLite 1.2 gain screen. The Electrohome 9500LC is arguably the best video projection platform in existance and it is the same unit as a Vidikron Vision or Madrigal MP8 and MP9. It is capable of resolving in excess of maximum HD resolutions when properly calibrated, and has incredible contrast.

I recorded the video through 1394 to my JVC D-VHS deck and then played it directly to the projector. There should be no loss or conversion there except by the D-VHS deck to 1080i. That said, some stuff looks great (which is making me consider the HD10) and other stuff is absolute crap (and not due to lighting or other operator error). I can't see how you can compose or adjust the edge enhancement out.

The edge enhancement issue is completely visible on the computer too, so I don't think it's my imagination.

You probably have not shot the right thing to see it in full force yet.

- GLupien

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : James - I would suggest you read up on these cameras features. You are demmanding things that are not possible.

Diu - "if you want to compare, compare on the same setting"
He did, both in auto mode.

Ken -->>>

same setting means not only the mode they shoot, but what they shoot, what time they shoot, get? and take out your rule and measure, tell me if those two grab are in the same width.

GLupien,

I've used two ways to grab stills. You can set the "still" camera in the HD1-10 to take "snapshots" from the DV tape instead of the camera - check the menus. I have obtained identical results by setting my monitor to 1280 horizontal, pausing a frame in a player such as Elecard, and pressing PRINT SCREEN. You can then PASTE from the clipboard into your favorite graphics program, and crop to get rid of the extra stuff.

Keep in mind TVs are going to add more detail gain than you'll see on computer. Try turning SHARPNESS down on your TV. Just some thoughts.

Electrohome 9500LC projector projecting a 115" 16:9 image on a DaLite 1.2 gain screen.

So that rules out the display. :) Nice setup by the way.

I think I may not be aware of what to look for. You can copy a frame from the video to the memory card and then to PC like this;


Set playback to VIDEO
Set the camcorder to PLAY
In the DSC (camera icon) menu turn on the function TAPE to MEMORY CARD (REC SELECT)
Play the tape and pause it on the frame you want to capture
Press the SNAPSHOT (picture) button


The image is then stored on the memory card and you can download it via the USB cable to your PC.

You can also capture video to the PC and do a frame grab that way but it's a little more involved.

I'd like to see more examples to make sure I'm looking for the right thing.

Thanks.

Troy

Hi David,

Actually, since I am using RGBHV inputs (yes, there is a YCbCr to RGBHV converter in line, but I know it doesn't change the picture much, if at all) on my projector, I cannot modify the sharpness or color. What comes in is projected (kind of the beauty of it, in a way). You have to use external scalers or other components to adjust sharpness, hue, etc.

I've uploaded some goodies (thanks for the help!)

Go here:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/trurovacations/HD1/

The four pictures here are full size captures from tape to SD. The last one, called "lookhere.jpg" is an obvious pointer to what should be an obvious bunch of edge enhancement.

One thing I noticed while messing around in my photo program is that the white is at the maximum (255). Maybe the edge enhancement goes nuts when there is overexposure in the shot... Interesting. Problem is that it should not overdue the edge enhancement when something gets overexposed lile that. If I dialed the ND's down any more than I had them, the whole thing would have been dark... Maybe that's what you have to do??? And then what, change the gamma in your editing program?

Any feedback from HD10 folks? Can you take something slightly overexposed and let us take a look at some edges?

Please check out the shots and let me know what you think... The HD1 is on the chopping block right now anyways, so I'd really like to know about the HD10.

- GLupien

Oops, exceeded my quota. The lookhere.jpg file did not get transferred.

I think you'll see the edge enhancement if you zoom in on the tower, and if you look at the telephone wires, etc.

- GLupien

I have an eeprom reader/burner but I don't currently have a GR-HDXXU

unfortunately we'd need a schematic to tell us the eeprom part number (check your manual or see if a service manual is available)or a very brave individual to open their camera to read the part number off. It would almost certainly void your warranty.

***I am not asking anyone to do this***

on top of that not all eeprom reader/burners read all types of eeproms. so it's possible though I think unlikely that my burner would work.

on top of that not all eeproms are socketed. but most are.

the eeprom will usually look like a chip that has a round divet in it with a little piece of black plastic tape over it. to erase an eeprom you lift off the plastic tape shielding and expose it to UV.

once you have the code from the eeprom you need to know how to read assembler for the microprocessor chip that controlls the camera. usually you'll get lucky and it'll have commented code

a collaborative effort would also take sharing what you learn but participants would have to be very careful not to publish whole sections of code, you'd have to refer to line numbers or block numbers or something.

once the code was changed everyone would have to 1)buy their own burners, suck in the code, burn a backup onto a spare eeprom, modify their code, install the mod. eprom to try it out.

the code base belongs to JVC though and I don't know much about whether you could get into trouble working together.

anyway as you see this would be a major undertaking. but from what I hear it would take something like that to get the cameras up to snuff.

the HD1 and 10u use the same chip though and I suspect that all the real differences lie either the eeprom or the DSP/eeprom.

sorry to ramble

I've had to do something similar for other equipment I own.

More analysis. Very interesting. If you look at the histogram of a given frame, you can see a pattern below the 35 level (that's 0-255, where 255 is max white and 0 is black). This is the edge enhancement.

If you modify your levels in the histogram to just look at 0-35 or so, the edges that were enhanced will dominate the image and you can see what a mess the camera makes of a given frame of video. Obviously this will show up and be more visible as you try and crank the shadows using a gamma adjustment during edit.

It seems to be VERY selective about what it enhances somehow (horizontal lines only, and only certain types of edges). The woods in the back of the tower shots is very nice, with hardly any enhancement. Any parts of the tower or building are very enhanced. I think it's this uneven enhancement, and the fact that whatever is actually enhanced is VERY enhanced that grinds my nerves when I watch the video from the HD1. There is no middle ground (or the middle ground is uncommon).

Overall, it's just plain wrong.

- GLupien

Yeah, and aside from that, the eeprom may be internal to the processor. AND it may be locked (like the Sony NX80V and higher palm based handhelds...).

It is really just a pipedream.

You'd have to unsolder the eeprom or processor, read it, alter the program and then write it to a new part.

Of course, you could just go in there and override the iris (which has to be electro-mechanical) at least. Then you could adjust the shutter speed with a fixed iris and only give the camera the opportunity to play exposure games.

I'd say we wait until about three generations of HD cameras come out and these are a dime a dozen. Then we play when it's not worth playing anymore... ;-)

- GLupien

Those pictures are classic! None of my footage looks anything like that. Although I've only had my camera for a few weeks and like you said Gordon, I may not have been shooting under the right conditions.

None of the photos were touched up? Some of the wires and the tower girders look like they have interlace artifacting going on. What appears to be dark edge enhancement on the tower shots looks overly done. It also looks like you may have caught a shot or two mid-frame it's very difficult to compose a focused frame exactly where you want it to catch a snap-shot.

I just double checked a lot of footage I had including electric wires, electric towers in the distant mountain, skyline mountain shots, Vegas buildings, highway signs, horzontal lines on a table and others and I didn't see the problems that some of your pictures had. I'll post some video clips of my shots tomorrow if I can. Can you post the actual video clip of that scence? If not you can send it to me and I can post it.

I'll do some of the same types of shots tomorrow to see if I can replicate your results.

So those were shot with ND filters in place and on manual with what additional settings?

Then we play when it's not worth playing anymore.

You would think by then they would have gotten it right.

Troy

Yes, I ran out of room on the server in mid frame on one of the tower pictures.

The pictures are RAW. I sent them from tape to the SD card in the camera and copied them from the card directly to the website. I'm not kidding around. Not with a $2000+ piece of equipment. (to me that's a lot of dough... I ain't no starving Indi film maker, ;-) There are NO MODS on those pictures.

I had some severe ND on there, an ND4 + two CP filters (as a variable ND) adjusted so that the sky was OK. Shutter speed was at 60 and F-stop was probably somewere around 2 or 4. I think I could have used a bit more ND to be honest. That might have made the white of the tower a bit less than 255, maybe reducing the EE effect.

- GLupien

Gordon - What kind of matte box or filter holder do you have?

Ken

I wasn't using anything specifc. Would that make a difference? I assumed (we all know about that...) that since I was not heading into the sun, it would not be an issue.

I'm just a casual family shooter, so you're beyond me already. ;-)

- GLupien

Gordon,

I hear ya, man! I'm so dependent on my DP that sometimes I'm clueless, too, about accessories! I just bought my first filters!

heath

Gordon - "I wasn't using anything specifc. Would that make a difference?"

I was just wondering as I noticed you were using 3 filters (1 rotating). The Cavision matte box lists 1 fixed and 1 rotating filter holder, and I was just curious on how and where additional filters go?

Ken

I used a Hoya ND4, 52mm filter followed by two Hoya 52mm circular polarizing filters, one of which was taped to stop it from rotating, and the other removed and flipped over in it's mount. When rotating the outer CP filter, you get a nice variable ND effect. All three filters were stacked up with the rotating CP on the outside, so I could rotate it freely.

So they are simply stacked 52mm ND and CP filters.

- GLupien

G,

nothing that indicates it's a "gray" ND filter?

heath

ND filters are all supposed to be 'grey'. ND stands for Neutral Density. Neutral, as in no color tint effect. It should attenuate the full visible spectrum the same amount.

-Les

Then I wonder why they label it as grey. Weird...

Just checking, but none of this ND filter stuff has anything to do with the edge enhancement problem, right? There's no chance that using the incorrect filter will somehow "turn on" edge enhancement...

I'd be surprised...

How come no HD10 people are showing us any pictures????

- GLupien

I'll have some jpegs this weekend. Just been busy!

heath

Thanks Heath! You're the man!

(special request...) Can you take some tape of something horizontal that's ever so slightly over-exposed so we can see if that's what the problem is?

Thanks a ton!!!

- GLupien

Which problem? I'm so busy, I've lost track...

I won't have the camera as of Tuesday, so I'll try and do it ASAP. I'm loaning it to a friend for some potential work.

heath

Here a few HD10 shots I did while running a few filter tests a month ago. The pics are compressed with jpeg compression so they look worse online and the chroma noise in the sky issue has been solved with various filter use and after effects. I don't know how to post a proper link in here so I'm just putting the address.

http://www.viproductions.tv/hd10/HD10shots.htm

Mark Jervis

Sorry, I got the HD1 and HD10 confused. I'm assuming that having a touch of overexposure in the video is what causes the HD1 to go nuts on the edge enhancement. I did some analysis in Photoshop on my problem footage.

I'm wondering if you could overexpose a couple things in a shot or two with the HD10 so I can see what the edge enhancement does with it.

- GLupien

Mark,

Nice! The Marriott without a filter is a bit brighter, not as clean, as with a filter, so that's a good lesson for us HD10 owners!

heath

Thanks for the pictures!!!

The cool thing is that it looks like they really did take care of the edge enhancement problem. There are a few shots where the HD1 would have gone nuts. Notably the non-filter Marriot shot and the other shot with the scaffolding in it.

There is a little bit in the second fountain shot, but if that's the worst case, that's not bad at all.

- GLupien

Well I finally got to do some additional recording of power lines and radio towers.

Although I'd have to say that when filming power lines the edge enhancement is horrific, I didn't have as much of a problem with the towers as Gordon.

There's one power line shot in particular that makes me want to barf, edge enhancement runs top and bottom the whole length of the line. Sucks!

Anyway, I don't know about you guys, but I don't really plan on filming power lines in the future. :)

I'm impressed with the quality of the camcorder now and I'm still learning to tweak it to get the best from it. I just got my ND filters in and I've been expermenting with those. My next plan of action is to get a portable lighting option for indoors.

If anyone would like to see my recent power line shots let me know.

Troy

Good point... Why the heck would anyone want to film power lines or AM towers anyways...

;-)

- GLupien