source: http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4270

Sony hits a grand slam! Announcing Hi-MD (spec) a new Minidisc format based upon a 1GB MD medium and existing MD media reformatted to 300MB. Hi-MD equipment features uploading to PC for mic-input recordings (yay!), and built-in linear PCM (16bit/44.1khz) and ATRAC3plus recording (at 256 and 64kbps). Hi-MD recorders also function as USB data drives. Available in April, recording equipment prices will be $200 (MZ-NH600D), $250 (MZ-NHF800), $300 (MZ-NH900) and $400 (MZ-NH1) with Hi-MD blanks costing about $7.

Cool - the phrase that caught my eye:

with the new upload function musicians or note-taking students can use the mic-in feature on several of the models to make a self-recording on the device and transfer the content back to the PC It's such a relief to see Sony stop shooting itself in the foot.

These two models specifically mentioned mic & line-in
MZ-NH1 $400 MSRP
MZ-NHF800 $250 MSRP

"When connected to the PC, Hi-MD recorders act as an external drive enabling users to store and transfer such data files as presentations, digital images and spreadsheets on the discs."

I wonder if this includes music files? I realize they still record in the ATRAC3 codec, but does it arcive the file, allowing for copying and pasting instead of having to record it onto the hard drive? It say it acts as an "external drive." Does anyone know???

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Wisniewski : Cool - the phrase that caught my eye:

It's such a relief to see Sony stop shooting itself in the foot.

These two models specifically mentioned mic & line-in
MZ-NH1 $400 MSRP
MZ-NHF800 $250 MSRP -->>>

It is line out or digital out that we need. Most units have adequate inputs.

All the new models are supposed to have digital I/O via USB - and it sounds real, not crippled like before.

I pointed out the two models because they specifically mentioned mic/line-in so we could use them as field recorders. The other models didn't specifically mention mic/line-in so they might only record via USB.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : It is line out or digital out that we need. Most units have adequate inputs. -->>>

Wha you talking about? My MZR-50 has mic-line in with mic boost, and digital In.

Yang Wen,

It's never been about inputs, it's always been about output capability where the format was crippled.

I think this is a bombshell. Still, I have some concerns. I don't really trust Sony to be completely upfront about their products, and I'm skeptical that they've really reformed their ways. They're pitching the mic in jack as a way for students to record lectures. If it's not intended to transfer music files, doesn't it seem likely that the preamp won't be very high quality? They downgraded the preamp on their minidisc recorders when they came up with that NetMD nonsense, I guess figuring that not many people would be making analog recordings. There's no mention of manual audio controls at all. I'd feel a lot better about this if it had optical inputs. All the same, this is very promising news. It completely resolves my concerns about the future of this medium. At the very least, we will finally have a way to do a digital transfer . (Now if only Sony would support the Mac.) If the recording feature is a dog, why not use our existing MD recorders and do the transfer with the new gizmo? I could kiss the Sony engineers for making this thing backwards compatible. It might be a good idea to start hoarding blank minidiscs, because who knows how long Sony is going to keep manufacturing them. Maybe Sharp or another company will license the technology and give us better recording features? My dilemma over whether to buy a deck with optical outputs or a Denecke-AD20 just got solved.

I think it is a last gasp for the technology, especially as a recording medium for video production.

One can capture a lot of audio on a memory stick very reliably with no moving parts, no shock issues and at lower power.

Even video recording into memory cards has shown up at the broadcast level.

And the first sound-recording add-on for a PDA was just introduced. Even has a good microphone pre-amp option.

Somebody out there, will make the almost insignificant technical change and those MP3 players will become recorder/players.

I'll continue to use my MD recorder until I can replace it with a small solid-state recorder. But I won't invest any more $ in the technology.

This is a UK site that is already taking orders. The product is said to ship in April. It mentions a model Mznh700 that has optical inputs. It also mentions "digital level control" which suggests manual audio controls.

http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/mznh700/sony-mz-nh700.htm

I found better info link:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200401/04-001E/

Citating:
<<3) High Compatibility with PC
"Hi-MD" uses the FAT file system, making it possible to use "Hi-MD" formatted MDs and 1GB "Hi-MD" discs as versatile media for recording PC data files, such as images and text. Furthermore, as portable, rewritable PC media, "Hi-MD" complies with USB format's Mass Storage Class, ensuring that simply by connecting a "Hi-MD" product to a PC it is immediately recognized as an external storage device.>>

That would mean you can do two way transfer - from and to PC with high speed. The USB is not clear - 1.1 or 2?

<<4) Copyright Protection Technology
To prevent an illegal copying of digital content, "Hi-MD" incorporates OpenMG and MagicGate technology, already adopted in Memory Stick and Net MD for content management to ensure that music content stored on a "Hi-MD" disc will be encrypted. "Hi-MD" also conforms to the Serial Copy Management System (SCMS).>>

I don't know about the proprietary Magic Gate, but SCMS means that only digitally obtained data is protected from copying. For video we usually use analog input (from mic or line from mixer) so it's not copywrite protected and you can copy as many times via the digital connection as you want. Hope I'm right.

Anyway - I just said my pesimistic view for the death of the format if they don't allow transfer to PC and the answer came quite quick.

I just wish they would support the Mac, or at least let a third party do it.

I'm encouraged by this development. I think it might have been enough to prevent me from buying a little MP3/WMA player (Nex IA) based upon CF cards. My player records voice but has no mic or line in. Moving music on or off the device is as simple as plugging the card into my PC and copying files.

I've been around computing for a long time so it almost makes me choke to say this, but my knee-jerk reaction was that 1GB is skimpy. On the other hand, if I had a 1GB floppy disk on my PCs I'd think that a good thing. (I've always wondered why Sony never promoted MD as a computer peripheral. It would have kicked Iomega for a loop.)

I look forward to April.

Will

At $7 a gig it's pretty pricey too.

Well, that's list, but I take the point. Call it $4 at retail after 6 months, maybe less.

Other formats, rough costs:

MiniDV tape -- $0.35/GB
DVD+/-RW -- $0.75/GB
Hard disk -- $1/GB
Compact Flash -- $200/GB (for capacities over 128MB)

Call me crazy but I thought $7 or so for a gig was not too bad. Especially if you compare it to flash memory. Fairly skip proof and portable. Can be used as a data drive so you could transfer video clips to it as well.

From what I've read recordings made with line-in or the microphone jack won't be copy protected therefore you can make as many copies of your own recordings as you want. If the preamp isn't the best quality you could always just buy a good one and go through line-in.

I was looking for an inexpensive yet quality field recorder and this thing is perfect for me.

$7/GB is expensive compared to everything except memory.

Will,
Even the audio tapes are still sold for nearly 1$ at a bargain price in japan. That's 60-90 min of a "dead" format.

Normal 74 min MD is about 0.95$ if you don't worry for a fasion looking dazling colors and design.

Even 7$ for a Gig is stunningly LOW in my opinion.

The first Data MD which had some entry in the low Pro audio (in the form of a mixer multytrack MD) was about 10$. And you could record 4 track for 30 min or so.

I'm sure Sony know the disadvantages of the format so they've made their bill how to make it competative to the hard state memory formats.

I think the price makes more sense for us than regular people. It's like buying a DAT tape. Being able to archive the things is so important its worth the few extra bucks. But this thing is competing with hard disc MP3 players which are really cheap.

Hey, on another note, can anyone tell from the specs if you will be able to record uncompressed audio? It says it supports WAV files, but I don't know if that's only for files transferred from a computer.

I think MDs are ATRAC-only devices. Given that the original MD is 177MB and holds approximately one CD's worth of music at SP (the original speed), it would have to be compressed.

Stating compatibility with WAV, MP3, WMA just means that the Sony software can take one of those file types and get it transferred to the MD/Hi-MD.

And that is one problem with the system. With my solid-state player, I just take the folders of WMAs ripped by WMP9 and drag/drop them to the memory card. Done. With MD, it has to go through the Sony system.

Read again carefully from http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200401/04-001E/

<<"Hi-MD" complies with USB format's Mass Storage Class, ensuring that simply by connecting a "Hi-MD" product to a PC it is immediately recognized as an external storage device.>>

Will, Isn�ft that same as all the current HD or flash memory devices?

Don�ft understand me wrong – I don�ft like much Sony for their proprietary formats and higher prices. This time though they might have done their homework.

Also check again the link I gave. You can see the technical data for the MD media. The new 1GB is recorded with different density. It�fs also stated you can record uncompressed PCM format. If it�fs same old WAV for CDA you can make the math how much would fit on a 1GB media. Should be about 100 minutes roughly.

Anyway it�fs a very nice move from Sony. Sounds good for the customer too - if there are more products to compete, prices should go down.

Bogdan, you are absolutely right that the new devices will behave like an ordinary storage device. So sure, you could copy WAV files or any other file type to a disc.

However, I think the player only plays ATRAC. I don't see anything in the information about Hi-MD to contradict that assumption. Also, the wording used to describe format compatibility for Hi-MD is the same as the wording Sony has used in the past to describe format compatibility for MD.

It would be great if I was wrong.

Will

Yeah, I hope you are wrong but nobody knows until the reall thing starts shipping.

May be I'm punctual but again from the Sony info
<<2. ...By also adopting a non-compressible, linear PCM recording, "Hi-MD" compatible products enable...>>

I hope that what they wrote is correct.
Linear PCM audio means only one - Linear PCM audio (16bit, 44.1kHz not compressed by ATRAC)
The first version of ATRAC was made to sqweeze the 74 min audio into a tiny optical disc. Now they have 1GB media so the luxury of uncompressed is possible.

For what it's worth, minidisc.org just updated their FAQ to confirm that Linear PCM 1.4mbps files are recorded using the Hi-MD equipment, and in fact such files can't be downloaded to the minidisc from a PC. At least that's how I read it. They're pretty anal over there, and I trust this is good information. Hopefully Sony won't put copy protection restrictions on uncompressed files.

http://www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html#_q93

Marco, sorry for being picky again but I think in the table is written exactly oposite.

downloading from PC
to Hi-MD equipment
X no

You are more likely to record uncompressed on the Hi-MD then download it to the PC, right?

In point 2 is also said:

* Microphone and line input (i.e. analog source) recordings made on Hi-MD equipment can be uploaded at high-speed to Windows PCs via SonicStage (Sony's copyright-protecting audio transfer software).

The use of Sony software is not the best thing but I think that's what everybody here wanted - to be able to download analog recorded sound at high speed.

I'm getting more excited the more I read about it ...

Actually, we seem to be saying the same thing. As I read it, you can apparently make an uncompressed recording using the analog input and transfer the file to PC, but you can't take an uncompressed file and transfer it to minidisc from a PC, at least not as a playable file. Maybe this is for copyright protection?

I've still seen nothing to indicate that the uncompressed 1.4Mbps files are stored on the disc as WAV files. All the material really says is that uncompressed audio can be stored. Based upon what I've read and all the comments here so far, that could mean ATRAC recording with no compression (perhaps we might call that ATRAC0).

From Sony's point of view, pure ATRAC might make the most sense because it would mean the player electronics and firmware would only have to decode one playable format at one of five (?) compression ratios. Why license anything else when you own ATRAC?

And that would be why SonicStage always has to be used to move playable audio -- it's the only software that knows how to decode and convert ATRACx to and from MP3, WAV, WMA, etc.

Look at it this way. If you transfer a WAV file from a PC to the MiniDisc using file transfer tools, can that file be played by the Hi-MD MiniDisc player? My answer to this question is no.

Will

It's unclear to me what Sony's statement means.

"SonicStage 2.0 jukebox supports many Internet audio formats, including MP3, WMA, WAV files."

Clearly it's referring to the software, so maybe you're right and when you move it on to the minidisc all files simply get converted over to Atrac. Makes no difference to me, as I'm not really going to use that function anyway.

That's exactly the same statement Sony put out for MD, before there was any hint of Hi-MD. I was confused by it, too, so I called Sony early last year and asked direct questions about formats. I was told that MP3, WMA, etc. were formats that SonicStage could use, in or out, but that they got converted when being written to a disc.

That's why I'm taking the position that nothing has changed in this regard for Hi-MD.

By the way, this is not to say I don't like what I'm seeing with Hi-MD. On the contrary, this has renewed my interest in MiniDisc; had I known about it before I bought my little MP3/WMA player, I would not have bought it.

Will

Ok (just to make sure I have this straight) You can record uncompressed audio with a mic or line-in. The format this is saved in has no relevance because its uncompressed, and when uploaded the sony software can convert (if need be) it to WMA WAV etc.

This sounds just right for me if everything is true....just wish I didnt have to wait so long. If I dont like the preamp quality in the player I can always buy a portable seperate preamp and go straight into the line-in.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=540&item=SP-PREAMP&type=store

Finally, the new Sony HiMD player/recorders are available. All the specs are posted at the SonyStyle site. The models (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start;sid=hiGd2RHG2kSdslDyPduX0l7L_Brf5AiOg8A=?CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalk man&Dept=pa) and a few specs (prices are Sony list in USD):

MZ-NH600 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=hiGd2RHG2kSdslDyPduX0l7L_Brf5AiOg8A=?ProductSKU=MZNH600DKIT3&Dept=pa&CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalkman) - $200 - no inputs; AA battery
MZ-NHF800 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=hiGd2RHG2kSdslDyPduX0l7L_Brf5AiOg8A=?ProductSKU=MZNHF800&Dept=pa&CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalkman) - $250 - Line in (Mic/Optical/Analog); AM/FM/TV/Weather Band Tuner; AC Adapter; AA battery
MZ-NH900 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=hiGd2RHG2kSdslDyPduX0l7L_Brf5AiOg8A=?ProductSKU=MZNH900&Dept=pa&CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalkman) - $300 - Line in (Mic/Optical/Analog); Tuner? (Sony site says yes); AC Adapter; Charging Stand & NiMH battery
MZ-NH1 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=hiGd2RHG2kSdslDyPduX0l7L_Brf5AiOg8A=?ProductSKU=MZNH1&Dept=pa&CategoryName=pa_DigitalMusicPlayers_MiniDisc_HiMDWalkman) - $400 - Line in (Mic/Optical/Analog); no tuner; AC Adapter; Charging Stand & L-Ion battery

MiniDisc.org (http://www.minidisc.org) has a comparison chart (http://www.minidisc.org/himd_2004_comparison_table.html) of these models plus a 700 model (apparently a Canadian model with Canadian warranty only). Specifications for each model are available from links in this table.

All but the low-end model can record from Line In or Mic In and have a feature Sony calls "Self Recording Upload Function." That means anything you record can be transferred to your PC, presumably via USB. This feature is part of the SonicStage software; apparently another Sony application (Wave Converter) is required to convert your recordings out of SonicStage to a WAV file. Without Wave Converter (not yet available as near as I can tell), your recordings are stuck in SonicStage. Sony remains stupid about this but appears to be bending a bit.

Without recording ability, the 600 isn't particularly interesting.

B&H has the 800 for $230 incl. s&h; I found $220 from another online reseller I trust. B&H has the 900 at $260. The MZ-NH1 is in shorter supply and is mostly selling for close to list; it's out of stock at B&H.

Finally, in April the FCC published a notification of an open comment period on a variety of technologies from companies requesting certification of those technologies. Sony sought certification for "MagicGate Type-R for Secure Video Recording for Hi-MD Hardware." Sounds like the Hi-MD media may be headed for video, too.

Will

So the combined cost of a HD Mini disk and the field mixer would be what?

I take your point, Bryan. I wasn't advocating the technology, only reporting on its availability, sharing the research I happened to do early today.

MD/HiMD recorders do have some utility outside the scope of the mixer/recorder combos, though.

Will

I noticed on the comparison chart posted above, that only the top two models have a "Line-output".

Line-output? Isn't this just the headphone jack out? Why would there need to be a second Line-output jack?

Headphone output is an undefined term and no standard.

Line Out isn't a lot better but we normally can expect a 1 V peak to peak signal at the max.

I think the word here is not only for the standards but Line out should be better to use in any case.
The head phone jack output signal is passing through phone amp that is not so good in a portable device.

There is only one analog output jack on these units.

The Sony specs do not say "line out" but rather "headphones/remote." The single output jack is clearly intended for headphones. "Remote" refers to the various dongles on all but the least expensive model, which only has headphones. The remotes have a hybrid plug that connects to both the output jack and a control plug. Headphones are then plugged into a jack on the remote.

This is all part of Sony's deathgrip DRM strategy. If there is a quality output method, then SonicStage (and therefore by definition Sony's DRM) can be circumvented. Getting recordings out of MD recorders at best quality has always been a challenge.

I have not yet learned whether the "Wave Converter" program is available. I'm sure it will be. If not, the folks who built utilities to upload tracks via USB will surely update their software to handle these new HiMD products. They may anyway.

Will

Sony's $150 studio recorder/player did very well for the last generation of MD units.

So the pre-amp in the mic inputs is better in the last generation than the Hi-MD's?

Apparently there is a typo at SonyStyle.com. The site says "Backlit LCD Tuner Remote" for the MZ-LH900 model. Based on two online chats and a final phone call, the 900 does not have a tuner. Only the 800 model has the tuner.

I also attempted to find out how a recording is transfered from the MiniDisc to the PC. In this context, "recording" means audio recorded by the user as opposed to a track that has been transfered from the PC.

The only method provided with the device requires the use of SonicStage. Continuing Sony's utter stupidity about MiniDisc, SonicStage allows this transfer only once.

There is no way to get such a recording out of SonicStage. Sony would not confirm the rumor about the "Wave Converter" utility program. During the phone call, the Sony representative (who was entirely courteous and forthcoming) said an update to SonicStage due in "about six months" would allow this.

Will

Have you tried this? The post is from the forums at www.minidisc.org. It details how to use a program called Total Recorder to capture digitally from the minidisc as a WAV file.

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=5858&sid=13523f2c6b8b3d8d134c4e0119317f1b

I saw the post at MiniDisc.org. The only problem I have with the technique is that its transfer rate is 1-to-1, real time. The advantage of digital over USB should be speed, enough so that most tracks would transfer from the disc to the PC in a matter of seconds.

Total Recorder at least captures the digital format, even if it is 1-to-1. That's an improvement over what I do now, which is recording the analog signal from the MiniDisc on line in, also 1-to-1.

I haven't tried the technique because I won't buy Hi-MD until I'm sure I can get the functionality I want. I'd certainly be happy to pay another $12 to overcome this silly SonicStage limitation.

Will