vs. the Optura Xi, do you think I'd get equal or better 16:9 with a DV852 and the consumer model of the Century Optics adapter? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart&A=details&Q=&sku=242460&is=REG)

Notes:
- I'm looking for a $1,000 vacation cam and I mainly want 16:9.
- I had decided on the Optura Xi because I like the Canon color, but the low light on the 852 + decent 16:9 is very appealing.
- Just wanted some last minute thoughts, before I head down to B&H Photo this Friday.

You'll probally get better 16:9 with the Optura Xi. I'm not sure how good this consumer version Century is; and I bet it's going to steal a lot of light. But to confuse you even more, if low light is concern, consider the PV-DV852 because it's one hell of a good cam at this fantastic price---just use it's built-in 16:9. The results should be okay. Perhaps Tommy can comment further. You may also want to consider the GS100---if you can handle the Japanese menu. What would I do if I wanted a good low cam and good 16:9? Wait.

The Wide adaptor costs half as much as the cam! That's pretty dis-proportional.

How much does this Century cost? Is it any good? No zoom-through, I bet. And will it even work right with the PV-DV852? Vignetting? How sharp is it? I'd go with the 852 and use it's 16:9 if low light is a concern. Keep in mind the 852 plays back a whopping 530 lines in 4:3, so it's 16:9 shouldn't be too bad---plus you can't beat the price.

Between the Xi and 852, the 852 is a lot more cam---solid, better built than the Xi, in my opinion.

If you want 16:9 plus a wider field of view right now for cheap, you ought to consider the DV953 plus a Raynox .5 wide angle adapter (or Canon .7). Since the 16:9 on this camera has no loss in resolution, you don't gain much except a wider field of view from an anamorphic lens. You will have to shoot in 4:3 anyway with the Century to stay 16:9 because using it and 16:9 mode on the camera gives you 2.35:1. The 953 and Raynox should price out pretty close to the 852 and Century.

I think I called Century Optics about the DV852 and 37mm anamorphic adapter and if I remember correctly they insisted that I would need the larger (58mm) anamorphic adapter along with a proper step-up ring.

before I head down to B&H Photo this Friday.

Maybe you could verify the above? I would be curious to know if the 37mm is possible on the DV852 and Century was trying to lure me into the more expensive lens.

As for the Xi vs. DV852 with widescreen removed from the equation. The DV852 has better color accuracy (IMO) than the Xi and as Frank mentioned the DV852 has better build quality. I've never liked the mode dial on Canons or the last minute look of the LCD panel housing.

I've had the DV852, DV953, Xi, and now the GS100 and they were all vacation cams that shot exclusively in 16:9. The DV852 has a resolution robbing 16:9 mode and regardless of anamorphic adapter I would probably consider the DV953 or GS100 unless low light is a must. I will mention that while the DV852 is noticeably better in low light than the other three cams I still was removing lamp shades to get a good shot with any of them. Only my VX2000 seems to thrive in low light (too bad its so freaking huge).

The 953 and Raynox should price out pretty close to the 852 and Century.

DV953 $1099 + Raynox .5 Wide $139 = $1238

DV852 $569 + Century 16:9 37mm $319 = $888

DV852 $569 + Century 16:9 58mm $699 = $1268 (absurd)

i think the canon optura xi has superior 16:9 to any of the panasonic cameras.

i have a 953 but if i'd known this i might have bought an optura xi instead.

with the 953 in 16:9 mode, the field of view doesn't get wider, the top and bottom get cropped. so it seems like you're always right on top of your subject. i think i need to buy a wide angle adapter.

with the 16:9 in the optura xi, the field of view gets substantially wider. this would be very nice.

the only things the 953 has going for it is the 3 ccds which probably leads to better color in the long run, and most people say the low light performance of the 953 is slightly better.

the still images from both camcorders are disappointing.

i think i'll look into the raynox .5 wide angle adapter.

i think the canon optura xi has superior 16:9 to any of the panasonic cameras.

Thats pretty accurate except for the imported GS100.

i have a 953 but if i'd known this i might have bought an optura xi instead.

I think you have the better cam. I couldn't wait to sell the Xi and my DV953 tapes are much more pleasing to look at.

the still images from both camcorders are disappointing.

Drop the resolution to 640x480 and both the DV953 and Xi take decent email sized stills. The DV953 has a great macro range and OIS is active for stills (same as Xi). Only a handful of digital still cameras have any form of stabilization.

A few still from my past DV953

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/Picture360.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/Picture370.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/Picture455.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/74415/Picture046.jpg

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear :
DV852 $569 + Century 16:9 37mm $319 = $888

-->>>

That's what I meant, the lens is half the price of the camera.

But really, is 16:9 really that much more important? It's 4:3 here for now!

Whatever it is, please remember the following facts:
1. All the cams we are considering here is 'consumer' grade, the price is low and the optics are 'optimally' (read: minimally) designed.
2. Since everything is 'optimal', adding lenses will only be detrimental, with light loss, distortion, non-zoom-through, vignetting, camera imbalance, etc.

So, the issue is to consider your needs first, then buy the cam. If your needs are met at a price much higher than your budget, sorry, but sacrifices must be made.

Using the 852 with a 16:9 lens will probably mean shooting only in wide angles (1x to 3x zoom). You'll lose the range and the shallow DOF of the 10x zoom (I'm sure that the lens will 'soften' the image as you zoom out using such a lens).

But really, is 16:9 really that much more important? It's 4:3 here for now!

No 4:3 TVs in my house and if you're in the market for a TV larger than 40" then you had better like 16:9 because 4:3 choices are slim to none. LCD, DLP, and CRT rear projection sets (along with plasma) are predominantly widescreen.

The majority of my family has 4:3 sets now but most of my footage is archival and I have a feeling widescreen will be around for quite some time.

But really, is 16:9 really that much more important? It's 4:3 here for now!sure, most people don't have a 16:9 tv yet. but most will in a few years and then i bet many people will wish they had widescreen video to fill their screens.

why just shoot for today? consider the future!

consider the future!Panasonic - tomorrow's technology today. ;-)

That's why Tommy dumped his Xi, realizing that darn PV-DV953 wasn't so bad afterall, but opted for a little more oomph with the even better GS100. :-))

The quality of the DV953's image in DV Widescreen is so good that uprezzing it to 1280x720 HD holds up very well (you can see this on two of three clips I posted on my website-one is MPEG2 and two others are WMV 9 HD). I believe this this due to the quality of the optics and electronics and because of the way Panasonic kept the 16:9 resolution the same as 4:3. So, video you shoot today in DV Widescreen can be compatible with future HD when the compression and delivery standards are set and we have the HD media. To me, that is a compelling reason to shoot everything you can today in 16:9 with this camera.

1. 16:9 is my top priority.
I like the flexibility when composing and editing. I can always crop to 4:3 or scan and pan if needed. Plus it's more aesthetically pleasing to me - there is a wow factor that's very difficult to achieve in 4:3 - especially with a vacation cam.
2. Low light is my 2nd priority - for shooting flexibility
3. Color rendition/quality is 3rd

X. Still video shots don't make my list because I still enjoy still camera photography (click here to see why :-) (http://www.pbase.com/mwisniewski)

Michael, nice pics. What cam? Even though I have a dedicated still camera its still nice to squeeze off a few pics if you're in a pinch with just your camcorder. My digital camera weighs a ton.

It would be nice to have a compact digital camcorder that had great widescreen, low light, and OIS but these days you usually sacrifice low light.

The PDX10 has better low light and 16:9 than the DV953 but is somewhat cost prohibitive at $2000.

So which cam are you leaning to?

Well thanks for all the great comments, you kinda sent me back to the drawing board :-)

Here's the list again
--------------------------
DV953 $1099 + Raynox .5 Wide $139 = $1238
DV852 $569 + Century 16:9 37mm $319 = $888
DV852 $569 + Century 16:9 58mm $699 = $1268 (absurd)
Optura Xi = $1,134.95
GS100 = $????


My current preferences:
1. I'd love to get the GS100 - but I'm leaving in a week. As luck would have it I happen be going to the Philippines so I might be able to make an HK/Japan/Singapore side trip while I'm there :-)

2. The DV852 + Century 16:9 58mm option makes sense to me. It sounds absurd in the context of this thread, but that lense is an investment I can use with other camcorders.

2. Optura Xi - It's an all in one solution and that counts for a lot

2. DV953 + wide angle - another great choice

*** yes there are three #2 choices - I'm still in the dog house trying to decide.

nice pics. What cam?
An old banged up Canon G2 - which will probably become a 300D in a few months. Those pics are straight from the camera - no post processing - except for the Pbase.com downsizing.

You're 953 pics gave me pause though, nice stuff, the 953 quality is definitely very good

The PDX10 has better low light and 16:9 than the DV953 but is somewhat cost prohibitive at $2000 Is the PDX10 a large camcorder? I've played with the 953 and I'm not that distressed with it's low light. So if the PDX10 has better low light and is relatively small I could use it as an all purpose camcorder.

Plus the XLR inputs are icing on the cake ... oh all right, one more trip to B&H Photo, I have to take a good look at the PDX10

The G2 is still a great cam.

I originally started with a 300D (Digital Rebel) but moved on up to the 10D. I still wouldn't mind having a black G2 for portability.

My old Digital Rebel

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/Picture191.jpg

Below are a few pics of my PDX10. The last is all dolled up with the XLR adapter and a wide angle lens. The PDX10 is compact but built really solid and can get tiresome after about 20 minutes of handheld. I took it to Hilton Head in November and I was glad to have my tripod.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/74415/Picture896(Small).jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/74415/Picture897(Small).jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/74415/Picture1040(Small).jpg

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Wisniewski :
My current preferences:
1. I'd love to get the GS100 - but I'm leaving in a week. As luck would have it I happen be going to the Philippines so I might be able to make an HK/Japan/Singapore side trip while I'm there :-)
-->>>

Hong Kong and Singapore are PAL-lands, sorry, no GS100, but there will be GS70 :)

I am not too sure about Philippines being PAL or NTSC, but the GS100 is not in many places, Japan is the only sure place.

Philippines is NTSC, but it's not a great place to buy electronics.

I didn't have a hard time finding NTSC camcorders, last time I shopped in Hong Kong and Singapore (8 years ago) I just had to ask around a bit. Most vendors seemed to know everybody elses inventory - so it was pretty easy.

But you're right, Japan is probably the best place. If I don't buy something before I leave, I might re-schedule my layover in Osaka to provide some shopping time. Any recommendations for places to check out?

Assuming you're willing to pay cash, buy online from any of the stores listed in kakaku.com, choose the COD (Yen) payment method, and have it delivered to your hotel. Timing is very important though as it takes only a day to deliver and most discount sellers wont agree to defer their delivery (or save the merchandise for you) unless you find a way to pay them in cash immediately. Latest prices of the GS100 cam are from JPY102,000 and above. Note that you have to pay 5% tax in addition to delivery fee and cash handling fee (by the express delivery company)

Otherwise, go to any regular electronic store. Prices should be standard. Dont forget to bring your passport to avail of 5% tax free. If the store has a point card system, make sure to apply for that card (for free) prior to purchase to avail of point back system (8% to 15% of the item price depending on the store and your mode of payment). Same day application and purchase is ok. Same day claim of your accumulated point against another purchase is ok too. For instance, if you buy the cam for around JPY120K and get 10% point, you can use that point to purchase your extra batt or other accessories.

Good luck to you..BTW, are those shots taken in Boracay?

Cool thanks for the shopping tips, I'll keep them in mind.

And, yeah that is Boracay!

If you want to save a little more on the wide angle lens, do an internet search for the 43mm Kodak Ektanar .65 wide angle. It was made for the DC4800 still camera that was positioned against the Nikon 880 in 2000-2001. It can be had for <$50 either online or pickup.

Guy, thats a good price on a 43mm WA adapter. Have you (or anyone else) used this successfully with a Panasonic 3CCD cam?

Is it a coated lens? I'm guessing not.

Tommy,
I haven't used it and cannot find anything quality-wise (coatings, resolution, aberrations, etc.) about it. Dpreview.com reviewed the DC4800 and noted some chromatic aberrations on the primary lens on the camera. However, they did not review the wide angle.

I'm mulling over getting it just for grins. At that price, its not a big financial risk. There are also a companion telephoto and some closeup lenses for similar prices.

Well that settles it, after this whole process, my mom decided that she would be the one to purchase an Optura Xi for our vacation because all her friends had a camcorder too.

And the final selection criteria for an Optura Xi? Oh! It's soooooo cuuuute! I'll take that one :-p

Yep, I had to have one as soon as it cam out but the limited contrast ratio, poor low light, and hunting AF (in dim light) had me dumping it in just a month. Maybe I had a defective unit so it would be nice to see some of your outdoor frame grabs and to read your thoughts/comments.

Yeah, definitely, going to give it a good work out - probably the only time it's ever going to be in manual mode.

When I get back I'm taking the money and picking up a DVC80.

Well the DVC80 is not as cute...but it is black.

Yeah, it's more sexy than cute