I have a buddy on dvinfo that started a mental revolution for my perception of mics. One month ago I finally decided to chance replacing my me66/k6 with a supposedly much better short shotgun, an at4073a...

I wasn't satisfied with the me66 for it's dry and unflattering sound. Very cold and technical. Well, I received the at4073a and I'm trying to convince myself to keep it, but it's getting harder. My biggest problem is finding a situation where it CLEARLY outperforms a small cardioid or super cardioid... such as an Oktava mc012...

The at4073a is MUCH more flattering to the voice then the me66 was... but still a fair bit LESS flattering then the Oktava... which was about ONE TENTH the price.

About the only area that I see shotguns as the clear winners is in sensitivity? If you have a decent mic pre or mixer you can gain that up though... also I haven't found the cardioids and super cardioids to be that much worse at attenuating off axis sounds... so what's up? Am I missing something?

All this has turned my 3 years of shooting on it's ear... Does an mkh416 or mkh60 sound A LOT warmer and more flattering to voice? If so then why is that never mentioned? Sure people say how well a mic like that CAPTURES the sound in an environment, but what of that sound's CHARACTER? I hear people say how much better a particular mic is and then they follow it up with, "but the differences are negligible with DV"... Jay Rose does this all the time by implying that with mini-DV we won't appreciate the difference between an AT4073a and an mkh416...

If an mkh416 sounds like a cardioid as far as vocal character, then *NO!*, it is NOT negligible... I feel like I've been told not to worry because my mics are representing the violin clearly, and I can hear all the strings... meanwhile it's a CELLO we've been recording and a different mic will bear that fact out.

What am I missing? Why do I even need a SHORT shotgun instead of JUST the cardioid?

I'm hoping one of the pros on this board will clear this up for me. If you're reading this and you're an established pro then why would you use a mic such as an at4073a instead of a cardioid/super cardioid with much more pleasing character?

I´m certainly not a pro... nor an expert but here it goes for what it´s worth:

I had a teacher back in Film School.. who is some kind of weird Old Timer Guru, and it´s suppossed to be one of the best in his field.... (acoustic engineer or something like that), Worked with Pink Floyd, and Orchestras.. etc...

Anyway.. he usually said that human voice over Shotguns are not the best combo, that just because of their physical shape they tend to give that "cold-tubed" sound... He also explained other stuff but I don´t remember it. But we did a few tests with expensive shotguns versus not-so-expensive mics... and the difference was very noticeable.
You can get further away with the shotgun... but you also loose "warmth" in the voice.

He allways told us to avoid Shotguns where possible... (controled envoriments), and leave the Shotguns for uncontrolled ourdoors. Where possible, use more "voice-friendly" mics.

I guess that most people use Shotguns because they can be more versatile than specifically voice mics, and probably have a better "price-return-value" relation...

In my Cheap case.. (I use the Azden SGM-2X) I do like very much more the sound of voice when using it´s Omni barrel, than it´s Hypercardiod barrel.

look if you shot with one lense ,what lense you will pick- midium long ,one that you can be wery specific on the subject and if you dont have enouth angle you are going back, if you are reech enougth , you buy another one , and another one and another one . the mikes are the same , if you want qualaty for your work you pick up the right mike for each situation -thats in perfect world . in real world you are going to the shop and heare that full mike setup will cost you at least as your camera and you are doing a compromise ,you are buing the" long lense".
for normal documentary work i use shotguns outside and hiper cardioids inside, its almost 90% of boom work, but in spesial okations you need the other 10 %.

I appreciate the responses... but I would like to re-iterate for anyone else that would like to add something.

My question is regarding SHORT shotguns vs. cardioid mics... I guess I'm mainly discussing indoor situations. I understand the value of LONG guns outdoors.

Jay Rose really shut me up on this issue on dv.com

I LOVED his answer because it makes a lot of sense. Now to put the proof in the pudding I'll have to see if this bears fruit.

In house, on quiet location, utilizing controlled circumstances. THAT'S what I had in mind when I asked this. And that is why I'm still wanting some additional input. Jay instantly mentioned the Schoeps MK41 (hyper-cardioid) as the STANDARD for real film-making. I'm sure he was referring to situations where there is a controlled set. Why didn't he mention the mkh416 or mkh60 or Neumann kmr81i...?

I guess I can see the need for a short shotgun in a noisy environment where you need short range capture. I imagine that a CS1 or AT4073a would be good on-camera in an area full of people, especially when you need to mainly hear ONE or TWO individuals and you don't have a newsmic... so is that it?

Boy I don't know? I'm still struggling with the purpose of a short shotgun... I wish I wasn't... because I really anticipated the AT4073a and I really want to like it... but my kit is mainly comprised of stuff that I feel I really need... like a well thought out tool box w/o many "luxury" items.

I hate to fluff it with an expensive mic that's just a tad better at special situations.

If it's not REALLY better I'd rather get a good boom pole or else exchange it for the AT4071a... l o n g shot.

I should add that I have 8 mics total already... half of them lavs, so it's not like I haven't had experience with mics, and I'm not asking for a "one size fits all" solution... I just want to know why I should choose a SHORT SHOTGUN over a good cardioid or super cardioid mic.

You should read Schoeps answer to this question, obviously this is their party line. It is still a well reasoned argument.

http://www.schoeps.de/E/overview-mic-types.html#shotgun

I think the mk41 is used outside more often than you might guess.

Everyone has basically said the same thing. In an ideal world a really good cardoid or hypercardoid is best. As the ambient noise level increases we get to the point that the off axis colouration of the short shotgun is better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Many of us have started into DV and instantly loathed the on board mic. We settle for what we are told is the best compromise, and for the most part is is the best for all around applications, a lot of people aren't interested in a stable of mics. (gaggle, herd, brace ?????)

Now we start to spend more money on mics and audio gear than we did on the camera and everything changes. Spome people say "that enuff of this horse poop" and settle for the one shotgun, a lav and maybe a dynamic. Then Nutbars like myself, Dave, Matt and countless others take the hook just like Charlie Tuna.

I think that a short shotgun is a necessity some of the time but not as often as we might think.

It's all in what we will accept. At a recent function I was there with my gear taking great care to the very best audio and video that I could. There was another fellow covering event and I admire his technique. He had a drink in one hand and his Hi-8 in the other. He was actually drinking at the same time he was shooting. maybe I've got it all wrong.

I think the nature of the product is also an important consideration. If your shooting for news, or a once in a lifetime event, or a rare interview for a documentary and you can neither choose or treat your location. It's probably a good time for a shotgun. What you get may not sound warm and inticing, the off-axis coloration of the mic may be totally obvious, but hey you can understand everything your subject says even though your forty yards from a busy highway. The increased attentuation of off-axis sounds as they go above 1KHz is definetly going to seperate voice from background sound.

On the otherhand, if your working on a narrative film, or a staged tv production, then these trade offs probably don't make much sense. Your better off using a mic with even off-axis attentuation and treating the room, or picking locations where the dialogue is going to sound right. In this case the viewer is going to know there s a highway behind you and wonder why it sounds like it is under water.

<<<-- Originally posted by Martin Garrison : You should read Schoeps answer to this question, obviously this is their party line. It is still a well reasoned argument.

http://www.schoeps.de/E/overview-mic-types.html#shotgun

I think the mk41 is used outside more often than you might guess. -->>>


all the mikes are complitly omny in lows ,but some of them have bettr side regection in the midle section that consist alot of anplesent sound on the street, there is nosuch a thing as plesent voice recording mike that make your voice wormer ,thats a mike that colorate your sound .
i work with mikes that have as minimum coloration and the post is changing the color for the best for them
i prefer sanken cs-3e that much flattish to" worm " sound of the 416 .
for hard extirial shots the 41 or 4 complitly not use friendly,
of corse if you shooting close ups only is a good choice.
check ones tha gang bang around some politision that coming from cort house after his trail , hoW many hipers there and how much shotguns:-)

Matt,

This is really a very tricky question, as there are many factors involved.

Perhaps Jay Rose comment, which I did not read and I am just quoting as you remember it, was a bit unfair. I do think you may hear the difference between a 4073 and a 416 in DV if you listen to it on a "proper" audio setup. The machines are certainly capable to pick the difference, some more than others.

There is a lot in the audio chain until you get to listen to the mic sound, and they may get things complicated.

First of all the camera preamp, which on Panasonic's new cameras seems to be good as well as on the new Sony PD170 and VX2100. It was quite poor on other DV cameras.

Then comes how you will process that audio in your NLE and if the mix will be properly done. And how will you screen it all? What speakers will be used to view the final video?

So first of all tell me where are you saying your dislike for shotguns applies? Direct on the camera? What headphone are you using? Are you using a mixer or preamp to go in?

After that comes the quality of the sound you prefer. Shorter hypercardioids, like some Oktava, Schoeps and Sanken types, are picking more ambience sound and the audio may sound "warmer". Some places are better suited for such mics, particularly less ressonant places.

Pro location audio engineers tend to use different mics for each situation, and for that they pick a 416 on some places, a Neumann on others and a Schoeps on another. Usually they are reinforced with lapel/wireless mics that are mixed to get the sound they want. Intelligibility is the primary concern and then audio quality.

So maybe you should try to think of your audio as a chain and see which tool will get you the sound you want at the end. But those characteristics I mentioned, intelligibility and audio quality, in that order, should be the parameters for you to pay attention to. If a dialogue is too warm it may make understanding it more difficult, or maybe you can perfectly understand what is said but sounds dry and lifeless.

Headphones do not help much in judging audio quality on location, and only large electrostatic headphones might help there. So sometimes it's better to cut some reverberation and record everything flat, with little or no equalization. Leave that for the editing.

What does really help and may be the key to a successful location audio is good miking, and for that you will need an audio person. I might say this is more important than whether you record with a Sennheiser, an Oktava, a Schoeps or a Neumann.

Let's hope you can follow this thinking approach of mine.


Carlos E. Martinez

If it's a reasonable "chain" as you put it and a direct comparison, if you don't like the tonal qualities of the mic then that's game over.

I listen to mics on my marantz pmd670 as well as my 302 mixer. The traits that i either dislike or like follow the mic. I would hardly call the procedures that some of the supposed golden ears use scientific.

Keeping it at it's most basic component, "If I don't like the sound then I don't want the mic". That's very simple and to the point.

I've listened to the examples that Matt and Dave have recorded and their recordings follow my findings . Their voicers and example are different, which is good but the results are the same.

Lets not make this some magical science.

By the way, i listen to the clips on Sony 7506 phones and yorkville monitors. Even when i use my AKG 271's the sound may be slightly different but it doesn't change my judgement.

Hey guys. Are these clips somewhere where we can all get to them. It sounds like they'd be helpful to many people.

Cheers
Aaron

Just to define where I'm coming from:

I do NOT have a mixer OR mic pre... All my judgements have been done by capturing audio directly into a DVX. The DVX has very good inputs/pre for a camcorder, but I'm sure they're inferior to the Marantz digital and others... I monitor that sound on a pair of 7506's and then I edit on a PC with Audigy II Platinum sound card... (wish I'd have gotten a Terratec, but this 'aint bad)... I don't use high-end studio monitors to play back my videos when I edit. I have Cambridge 5:1 but use it as a quad system w/ sub. On my system, Canopus RT, I have realtime output to a Toshiba 14" flatscreen stereo monitor with the standard 3" speakers... I chose that intentionally because when I started doing videos seriously a few years ago I found that my videos never sounded that good on "regular systems"...

I think that about sums it up. Clearly I'm not a "pro", but I've also graduated from being an amature years ago.

I guess I'm mainly just using my ears as Beas and Dave are saying. If you get over to dv.com you can see how Jay Rose pretty effectively defined the point of shotguns. Like I said, he shut me up... except that I still question the value of SHORT SHOTGUNS... also I need to add that Jay NEVER said we can't hear the difference between mics such as the mkh416 and an at4073a... He IMPLYS that with mini-dv that we won't APPRECIATE the differences. I don't want to slander the guy.

If you'd told me any of this a month ago I'd have told you to take your crazy ass away from me... but listening sure tells you a lot... and the more I listen, the more I don't get it... as far as short shotguns go.

I've spent 2 days of marathon testing an Oktava that I got from Guitar Center up against an At4073a that I got from B&H... The 4073 was TEN TIMES the price... I guess the shotgun would be far better suited to outdoor use, but then why wouldn't I just use an At4071a?

Matt, been looking at your posts on dv.com also and are you only worried about why one would choose a short shotgun over a long shotgun?

Now I'm far from a pro, but the obvious things would be (apart from that fact you might like the sound of one brand over another)

Price - Shorties seem cheaper

Directionality - longs are more directional (at the cost of colouration of course)

Length - If you need the qualities of a shotgun but need to camera mount, then a long one's gonna be a pain in the arse.

Wind - Long shotguns are more sensitive to noise.

Maybe I misunderstood what you're getting at.

Aaron

Matt, I know where you're coming from. I'm looking for a good shotgun type non-zoom stereo mic (since I was told that there isn't any good stereo zoom mics) which is somewhere in-between cardioid and supercardioid but more so cardioid which ain't gonna break the bank, so I would assume it would be shaped like a stubby shotgun. We aren't all broadcast engineers here, just simple shooters who are trying to make a wise choice in way of bettering existing in-camera audio, such as myself. :-))

The point of it is, we are enjoying ourselves and expanding our outlook. I tried to explain how things started with me in a previous post.
I wasn't happy with the onboard mic.
i bought an AT 835 and didn't like that
returned it and got a Senneheiser ME66
Didn;t like the sennheiser in confined areas.
Bought a ECM44 Lav
needed a hand held dynamic for interview purpose in loud ambients bought an AKG D230

I felt restricted without phantom and mic pre's- bought a 302 mixer.

Aaron it's an evolutionary thing. I wanted to mice several people indoors and didn't want to use lavs. i also wanted to learn and grow. i bought a set of Oktava's with all of the capsules.

I really don't care if anyone else can hear the difference. i can and so can Matt , Dave and a whole bunch of others. A fisherman doesn't always use the same rod , reel or lure all the time.

Like the man said "Sound is 70% of the picture"

Some people p!ss there money away at the bar or on fishing trips, i do DV and I enjoy it.


All i can say is when i kick the bucket and wind up in that big toolbox, my wife will have one hell of a garage sale.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : If it's a reasonable "chain" as you put it and a direct comparison, if you don't like the tonal qualities of the mic then that's game over. -->>>

To start with, whether the "game is over" would depend on several circumstances and the soundman attitude towards what he is trying to get.

If the circumstances are that you have no option but to use that mic, then the game can't be over if you want to pick your sound.

But if you have the time, and pre-production should ensure that you do to get a quality job, you will certainly use the mic that you like.

When I talk about the whole chain, is because nowadays you can't really be sure what is or will be in the middle. In fact that's one reason why I always recommend for people to do double system sound if they can. At least then you can predict what you will get.

But if you want to put it rough, yes the game should be over if the soundman does not like the sound of the mic. But it never gets there, because you work as a team and you should support and respect what the main pros in a film/video production are asking for. You are paying for their experience, and if they say we won't use that mic, end of the story.

<<<-- I listen to mics on my marantz pmd670 as well as my 302 mixer. The traits that i either dislike or like follow the mic. I would hardly call the procedures that some of the supposed golden ears use scientific. -->>>

We are not talking golden ears here, we are talking professional attitude. That attitude requires that you take serious decisions that cost money. Here they are even more serious because they cost your money.

Most professionals in the audio business started their work as boom men, at least in the film/video area. So they started working with the mics picked by the sound man they were booming for, probably a Sennheiser, a Neumann or a Schoeps. Those have been the standard brands of the industry for the last 30 years or more. The MKH416 has been a workhorse for all, even if they later picked a different mic that suited their tastes better.

So the soundman's taste is what sets things in the end, but I would hardly call him a "golden ear". Their methods may not be scientific, but they are empirical and they work.

Now someone comes, as Matt did, and says: "what's the problem with shotguns and why I dislike them?"

An answer to that might be: "Then you don't like the sound of 100% of the films you see in your TV and at a film theater, because all of them were miked with shotgun mics".

As that probably is not the case with Matt (right?), then there might be something else affecting the sound he listens to. If there is not then let's keep investigating.

Matt mentioned three mics he tried: the MKE66, the AT4073a and the MC012. And what he is saying is the he prefers the sound of the Oktava over the other too. Well, I must say I agree on the Oktava. The MKE66 I don't like (and never recommend) and the AT I never tried but will.

But Matt IS using terms "golden ears" use, like "warm" and "flattering to voice". Golden ears are primarily subjective in their comments, and I don't think they are totally wrong. In the end you have to be subjective in these things

<<<-- Keeping it at it's most basic component, "If I don't like the sound then I don't want the mic". That's very simple and to the point.-->>>

When he declares his dislike on all shotgun mikes it maybe to the point, but it's not simple.

<<<-- I've listened to the examples that Matt and Dave have recorded and their recordings follow my findings . Their voicers and example are different, which is good but the results are the same.-->>>

OK, but what are the findings? Also that shotguns should be ditched?

<<<--Lets not make this some magical science. -->>>

What magical science are we talking about? One thing you get to do by listening hour after hour booming or mixing audio on location is develop an audio memory. You get to identify a mic just by listening to it.

Mic technology is based on tube/slot handling and diaphragm. Shotgun mikes are specialty mikes, developed for dialogue. You are not supposed to record certain musical instruments with it, or you may not get the sound you want (as Matt complaints on the 416 for cellos). Shotguns, as all mics on some aspects, have design compromises. The soundman judges on the compromises which are important for him and which he doesn't care.

<<<--By the way, i listen to the clips on Sony 7506 phones and yorkville monitors. Even when i use my AKG 271's the sound may be slightly different but it doesn't change my judgement. -->>>

A good start. The next should be to get a mic reference to judge from it. A reference doesn't need to be a great mic, but the Oktava should be good enough.

BTW: the Oktava is not a shotgun, just hypercardioid.


Carlos

Bryan, I totally agree and understand why Matt is trying to get good mics and not waste money buying stuff he doesn't want/like (I do that too). I was just a bit confused as to why Matt was still stressing about the need of a short shotgun when all the basic differences (reach, directionality, off axis colourisation etc) had been summed up here and elsewhere, with regard to shotguns (short and long), cardioids and hypers. I would have thought it's now just matter of building a matrix of those capabilities, filtering by your needs and then trying them out and seeing which ones he likes the best.

We all know that short shotguns, if you look at the polar patterns, do have more off axis colourisation than cardioids. I guess it's different for me as I rarely would get the chance to try out a mic first, so I have to buy from advice and generalities. If I was thinking I needed to mic for a specific purpose I'd look at what the "types" offer me, and based on that ask around for a good one of those. That might not get me the best mic but it's the best option I have.

Definately no offence meant! Buy away! ;)

Also, where is a good place to get these Oktava mics and is there a way to get those audio tests you guys did of the various mics. I'd like to hear them myself.

Aaron

Which mics would you like to hear? We'd need an email addy though.

We've pretty well agreed that the AT 4073 is the best sounding shotgun at this point. We also understand that there are times that a shotgun is necessary.

Aside from the shotguns, for the price and it's sound the oktava is the best bang in my opininion. I bought my oktavas through the canadian distributor. We a/b'd these mics t'ill we were sure that they were ok. There is some strange quality pecking order with Oktava and i'm not sure i understand it. My mics also came in a matt black and not the gunmetal, I also got the 3 capsule kit.

The canadian distributor is saying he's never had a problem. This same company deals with gefell, as well as a few other eastern bloc manufacturers.
So far as other mics we have all found that a few of the mics have a special appeal but more on that later. Dave is still working on his horde of test subjects.

You haven't lived unless you've listened to Matt enjoying a Bourbon and Coke in stereo or his buddy the rapper. My wife is still laughing uncontrolably at all of us.

Bryan, I take it there are only a few mics, so if possible I'd love all the samples if you can spare them and they're not gigs of data. I have not compared my ME66 to anything so it'd be interesting to get one of those in the mix, against say an oktava but of course I'd like to hear some other types of mics too - non shotguns.

Sending to blitzed at paradise dot net dot nz would be fine.

Thanks
Aaron

Thanks guys! This has been the most enjoyable week for me! I RACE to my computer when I get home to see what you all have to say and also to see if I have something else to listen to!

I'm sorry that I'm not as effective a communicator as I perceive myself to be.

I don't have experience with the mkh416. I'm sure it's a GREAT mic.

My "complaint", if you could call it that, is just that SHORT SHOTGUNS... SHORT... SHORT... SHORT... are we clear yet? No? SHORT... SHOTGUNS... in the sub $1K price range, seem to be odd choices for many people.

Jay DID answer my question WELL. HOWEVER, he also said that when there is control of the soundstage that the Schoeps is the mic of choice... NOT... NOT... NOT... a shotgun.

Also I KNOW the differences between short and long shotguns. I would consider a long shotgun to be a proverbial "zoom mic"... and I'm considering getting one.

When I posed the thought of "should I trade my 4073 for a 4071" I didn't mean for the same purpose. I was thinking that maybe I will just use the Oktava for the times I used to use a short shotgun (me66) and return the 4073 for a 4071... because I'd expect a 4071 (long gun) to be better at the things you get a shotgun for in the first place.

Since I don't have the luxury of buying every mic I want I have to knowingly make choices I.E. compromises.

My initial post was directed at people like myself who look at the stable of "mainstay" choices under $1K... and lately I've been thinking those people MIGHT be a lot happier with a sub $200 cardioid.

I really DON'T want to offend anybody here. I don't claim to be an expert and I just want to get the best sound I can for the amount of money I can budget to new gear.

Also, and I can't speak for Beas, but I think when he said that if he didn't like the sound of a mic then "game over" that he meant this in the context of choosing a new mic... I don't think he meant that if he's on a shoot, and doesn't like a particular mic, that he'll refuse to make that mic work to the best of his ability.

I guess we're all wallowing in the fountain of info we have going here, as it relates to choosing new mics.

At least that's what I'M doing.

Again, I want to say that I wanted this to be mainly a "Short shotguns vs. Cardioids and Super Cardioids... ALL UNDER A GRAND"... thread. This segment of the market is the only one I'm struggling with... really you need to HEAR the sound files we're talking about to understand. I'd have called you a nut if you came to me with this stuff a month ago.

Also I'm coming from years of thinking that a SHORT SHOTGUN is the mic to cover MOST camcorder audio needs. I think that MOST NEW DV ENTHUSIASTS THINK THAT SAME THING... so:

Sure I can see times when a SHORT SHOTGUN may be needed, but it just seems like a cardioid or super cardioid would bring superior results for 90% of the situations where "said person" had been using a short shotgun. Now are we all good?

One last note. I just want to welcome all of you who are commenting from such a vast expanse of the globe! I hope all is well and your life (and weather) is good in your respective countries.

Hi Matt. Just got the audio files from Bryan and had a preliminary listen. VEEEEEEEERY interesting. From the test Bryan did with the ME66, it sounds very distant compared to the NT1a (So much so I want to now sell the ME66 ;) ). The oktava in your test was very close to the AT4073 from what I could tell too. Those tests with ambient noise going on might be another thing to try also, to see which has more off axis rejection.

I wish I had some more different mics as I'd love to do some off axis test and some reverb off the ceiling tests too (As you would have the mic boomed from above in real life). If they cardioids performed well enough with off axis rejection and colouration then I would definately get the MC012 and use that in preference to my ME66 most of the time under controlled circumstanced. Guess that's what you were saying all along ;)

Cheers
Aaron

I love to hear those samples.
Where can i find and hear them?

Jan

If you have to send them by email: my email is: janjcl@janjcl.com

Matt said:

"I guess we're all wallowing in the fountain of info we have going here, as it relates to choosing new mics."

I'd substitute the word "bathing" for the word "wallowing", and please keep it coming!

Aaron,

In that comparison between the Oktava and the 4073 I had both mics mounted on a boom stand 2.5 feet overhead, in my normally reverberant bedroom. My bedroom is carpeted and I have a queen sized bed in it, so it's not as live as say, a kitchen... but it's no studio either. I had my 7506's on to find a position with the least room effect I could manage. As it ended up, the mics were around 2.5 feet from the ceiling, aiming down at me at a 45 degree angle. I had both mics right next to each other and ran them directly into my DVX. I ran the 4073 channel at about 1/4 turn up from zero, and I ran the Oktava at just a little past 1/2 turn... so looking at the DVX the 4073 dial pointed at 9 o'clock and the Oktava was at 1 o'clock.

So the point is that the 4073 is clearly MUCH more sensitive, so as Jay puts it, combine that with low self noise and you should get reach... however, you are right in saying that I need to try this in an area where it's hard to hear one person clearly over others. As it relates to room acoustics, they seem to be on the same level... but I'll do my best to get a GOOD test of directivity today.

Boy I'm loving this thread. Thanks guys!

BTW... the sound of my buddy "beat-boxing" is supposed to be funny, so I hope anybody that hears it laughs their ass off... but it also says something about that NTK mic... no pop screen, and the hollow sound is because he had his hands cupped in front of his mouth to enhance the bass. At the start of that you hear him wipe his hand across his mouth fast and nervously, then you can hear him lower his voice to a clear whisper as he starts. He'll die when he finds out I sent this out... lol.

I've sent Beas some other files where you can hear the air blowing through a vent across the room... you would at first think it was my equipment, but it's this low "shuuuuuush" that just runs seamlessly in the background... On some other recordings you can hear a truck pulling away from a neighbor's house. These details are so faint that you'll never hear them unless you have something like a pair of 7506's... but the point is that all this unbelievable detail is coming from an audio chain that consists of a mic and a camcorder and uh, umm, that's it.

I've already put this in the pd150 forum for obvious reasons, but it seems highly relevant to what's going on here as well....

www.alanbarker.com/

Matt, thanks for more details on the setup of the MC012 and 4703a test you did.

I haven't got the beat box samples from Bryan yet as he's away for a couple of days, but can't wait to hear them.

Shawn, thanks for that link too. Very informative.

Cheers
Aaron

Also, loved your real world audio tests. Taking a normal everyday set of actions and recording them ;)

<<<In house, on quiet location, utilizing controlled circumstances. THAT'S what I had in mind when I asked this. And that is why I'm still wanting some additional input. Jay instantly mentioned the Schoeps MK41 (hyper-cardioid) as the STANDARD for real film-making. I'm sure he was referring to situations where there is a controlled set. Why didn't he mention the mkh416 or mkh60 or Neumann kmr81i...? >>>
_
He didn't mention the 416 or the 60 because they are both "shotguns."
The Schoeps is a hypercardioid capsule NOT a shotgun. A shotgun mic has
a hypercardioid capsule and a housing designed to turn that capsule
into a supercardioid and reject off axis noise/sound. In doing that,
the housing heavily 'colors' the sound. Real studio audio guys don't
even own a shotgun.
_

<<<I guess I can see the need for a short shotgun in a noisy environment where you need short range capture. I imagine that a CS1 or AT4073a would be good on-camera in an area full of people, especially when you need to mainly hear ONE or TWO individuals and you don't have a newsmic... so is that it?>>>>

_
Don't get too hung up on short vs. long shotguns. The MKH416 (short) has
better 'reach' than the long gun ME67. The short is usually chosen
for its size rather than its wider pickup pattern. Shotguns are usually
passed by because of their (poor) sound quality.
That is why some HATE the 416. I think it is a great _shotgun_ myself,
but then I know the difference and what to expect. The 416 is a very
bright mic. I don't think they make a shotgun that sounds "warm"
and "phat". If you could actually see The shotgun "sound" waveform, it
would look like a hideous saw blade with deep valleys and peaks, especially
when compared to a plain old cardioid cap with a ball head on it.
_

>>>Boy I don't know? I'm still struggling with the purpose of a short shotgun... (snip)
If it's not REALLY better I'd rather get a good boom pole or else exchange it for the AT4071a... l o n g shot.<<<<
_

Getting closer to the talent with your mic is ALWAYS better.
The inverse square law cements that fact. IMO, a longer shotgun won't
impress you much. What you want is a better shotgun.
The 416 BLOWS AWAY the 66 or 67 IMO.
_


>>>I should add that I have 8 mics total already... half of them lavs, so it's not like I haven't had experience with mics, and I'm not asking for a "one size fits all" solution... I just want to know why I should choose a SHORT SHOTGUN over a good cardioid or super cardioid mic.<<<
_
The short shotgun *should* get you better off axis noise rejection and pickup of
signal than a cardioid, BUT the Schoeps MK41 is going to have a better
sound quality than any shotgun IMO. This is due to the physics
of *shotgun housing design*. That's why the MK41 is THE film
mic of choice. You have to understand that the MK41 will also have
problems with humidity before the Neumann or a Sennheiser.
You should also realize that 90% of the time the "stage" audio
from all these shoots is only used as a guide track for audio dialog replacement
later in post. It is pretty hard these days to shoot outside without
major issues of noise pollution. That is why most EVERYTHING sounds
so nice, big, quiet and phat. It was done in a studio VO booth, NOT on site.
_

Jacques, thanks for your information... I'm sorry that some of these discussions get bent into new directions and suddenly one of my comments is pulled out of context.

When I asked why Jay didn't mention the high-end short guns, I was asking a rhetorical question. I'm kind of bashing short shotguns in this thread... but not to offend anybody. I wanted to point out that Jay didn't mention the shorts. His response wasn't to say shorts are fine, it was to say that a hyper is Hollywood's mic of choice. And I just want some of the guys on this board, especially ones on a really tight budget, to know that.

I got serious about DV a few years ago. When anybody gets serious about it they realize that expensive mics are inevitable. I had no problem with this as I saw a clear upgrade path which started at an me66, then a 4073a, and eventually a 416 or better.

As it turns out, for as good as the 4073a is, and it IS good for a shotgun... It's not much better then a studio hyper cardioid... and in many cases, it's slightly worse. (at a far higher cost)

I'm crystal clear that ULTIMATELY you really do need intelligibility more then actual sound quality. And I'm clear that a shotgun is the best insurance to meet that requirement. But it's surprising just how capable a hyper cardioid IS at doing a shotgun's job while still sounding more natural and pleasing.

So my frustration is in the fact that I think many people, including myself, visualized a pricey shotgun to be somewhat of a magic wand... I used to think, "If I only had a 416 that sound would have been great!"

The truth is that people can get theater quality sound on a very limited budget. How limited? UNDER a hundred bucks.

My latest mic test is between a 4073a and the Oktava... this time I mounted them RIGHT next to each other, high on a boom stand, in my EXTREMELY reverberrant garage... and then I started my motorcycle, which was parked about 8' behind the mics, about 100 to 120 degrees off axis. I was going for the sweet spot to maximize the directional pick up and side rejection of the mics. Under this test there is a WIDE range of LOUD frequencies trying to muffle my voice. Sure a motorcycle (sportbike) is bassy, but it's also metallic and obnoxious and it FILLS the garage completely with reflected sound.

The 4073a is $530 at B&H and it's supposed to be one of the best sounding shotguns, with really high directivity, that you can get. I have it in a Rycote suspension/grip/softie... The Oktava was so cheap it's crazy... I think I peeled it off a box of Lucky Charms...

Anyway, when you hear the recording there is NO doubt that the 4073a does a superior job at isolating my voice... but the difference doesn't even come CLOSE to justifying the price difference... it's maybe 10-15% better, and more importantly, the Oktava is with a CARDIOID cap... I'm going to order a set of Oktava hyper caps tomorrow and return the 4073a.

Let me add one more important point:

I do expect that on some shoot within a few months, something will happen that makes me think, "Dammit! THAT'S why I needed that short shotgun!" I mean it's obvious that they fill a role or there wouldn't be such an evolution and quantity of them to choose from. Somebody posted that I thought we should ditch shotguns... That's not what this is about, but I think a shotgun may be more of a specialized instrument then most DV advice suggests.

Matt, thanks for the update and will be interesting to see if the Hyper caps on the Oktava end up being as good at isolating your voice in your carage as the 4073. There seems to be a buzz about those oktava's at the moment and ones that have been quality controlled seem to do well for people at an awesome price. I will probably look at getting some myself soon.


Aaron

I may weaken and go for a matched set of THE hypercardoids. It's tempting with the Canadian dollar so high right now. They're supposed to blow the Oktavas as well as having some impressive off axis attenuation (-10 db at 90 deg.

(I'm not home yet)

Yeah they look good those THE mics, but 1 mic and preamp module would be about US$600 right? The complete Oktava kit is about US$240....I'd expect them to blow the Oktava away ;)

Now just got to find someone that sells them and is respectable and ships to New Zealand!

Aaron

Establishing shot-Exterior of a busy urban Emergency Room. Ambulance rolling up to door.

Cut to:
Interior of busy ER-our hero, Matt Gettemeier, is being rolled in through the doors strapped to the paramedics cart.
Matt is mumbling something unintelligible to himself.

ER doc walks up to the paramedics and the cart.

ER doc: So what are you bringing me now?

Paramedic 1: Suicide attempt. Possible Carbon Monoxide poisoning. This guy's neighbor saw him going into the garage and heard his motorcycle running in there. When he didn't come out in twenty minutes, he called it in to 911.

Paramedic 2: We think he's either on PCP, or his mind's just fried from the Carbon Monoxide. He kept telling us how he hate's sawed off shotguns, and wanting an AK 47 or a MK 41, or one of those assault rifles.

Paramedic 1: Oh yeah, and get this. This guy is so loony he was videotaping offing himself!

Matt(Looking around, straining at his restraints): This place is so noisy, maybe this is where I should use a short shotgun!

ER doc: Hmmm, I see what you mean. (Sarcastically)Thanks a lot. Oh, well. Roll him into psych holding. Help Julie put him into a straight jacket. We'll get a gas and a tox screen, and see if they have any room on the lock down floor.

Hahahaha! Stop it! Oh my god! Hahahaha!
Joe, give up video and become a comedian please - seriously!

Oh God, it's like my own family is here now. (laughing)

Joe are you REALLY in St. Louis?

If so then you can come visit me in the psych ward. They took all my xlr cables away 'cause of the suicide watch.

Seriously, my neighbors would never call just because they saw me go into the garage and start up my bike. That thing is dead-sexy.

When I tell people I passed out in the throws of passion they don't realize it was mainly because of the carbon monoxide.

"Joe are you REALLY in St. Louis?"

Yes.

"If so then you can come visit me in the psych ward. "

No thanks. I always wonder when I go on one of those lock down wards-are they really gonna let me out when I want to leave?

Reading your scenario really is like talking to my own family... I should film the stuff that's said when I'm trying to show one of my brothers anything technical...

I normally joke around a hundred percent of the time, so I even think it's funny when they rip on me alla "Don Rickles"... You'd piss your pants if you could be a fly on the wall when I want to convince my family to be the cast in some stupid spontaneous idea...

I catch a lot of flack for being OCD when it comes to this stuff so I feel the need to explain for any newcomers.

I had close to a grand in a short shotgun with Rycote support gear and a buddy of mine suggested I look at an Oktava.

When you hear for yourself that a $49 mic sounds almost as good as $800 worth of short shotgun, you tend to get your panties in a bunch.

Matt are your ME66 gears useable with the Oktava? I have a softie and that for mine, be a shame to have to go by some more stuff like that again with an Oktava.

What is OCD?

Aaron

OCD=Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

"When you hear for yourself that a $49 mic sounds almost as good as $800 worth of short shotgun, you tend to get your panties in a bunch."

Yes, I was myself considering getting an ME 64 capsule for my ME 66/K6 mic when you and Beaser started going on about other alternatives, including the Octava.

Where did you get your's from? Did you have to a/b a bunch of them to get a good one?

Don't apologise Matt. Shit, I'm the same. You should have been here when I first started on this board, looking for a camera... ;)

Aaron

Last post for me tonight. It's 1:00 AM, Wow.

I bought the Oktava's at Guitar Center on St. Charles Rock Road. I asked the guy to get out 4 of them for me so I could pick 2. He must have been on to me. I figured if I didn't find 2 in that set I'd ask for more.

As it turns out he said he only had 3 left. That's why I said he was on to me... smart guy. Anyway, it didn't matter because 2 of the 3 sounded good. But even they aren't "matched"... one sounds a little crisper.

They were on sale for $49 each. I bought 2.

Today they were marked at $149 each. What? Yeah, crazy.

The Softie mount for the me66 is 21/22 mm and it's too loose on the Oktava... It will drop right out.

Solution? Your choice:

1) Build up the "shaft" (insert joke here) of the Oktava with a sleeve of some kind.

2) Buy the 19mm Softie mount, rubber only, for $48.

3) My favorite choice. Get that Beyer shockmount for $29 from B&H.

I'm so impressed with the Oktava that I might even get something specific from Rycote... maybe a mini-zepp and jammer or something. I hear a lot of people say the Oktava can't take the wind, but how many of them have it protected as good as they'd protect a shotgun? Put some fur and foam on it and it may be ok?

I don't know. One thing's for sure... at $49 it leaves a lot of budget for proper support.

Another thing you'll love about this mic is that it's so understated. The damn thing is only about 4" long. Can you imagine the EASE of booming a 4" mic? If you hit the ceiling OR drop the mic into frame then you're an idiot.

With a shockmount you really CAN use this as an on-camera mic. Of course I don't normally do that, but I did test it just so I'd know my options in a pinch and it BLOWS the F*** out of the on-cam mics in my DVX.

How about the times when you just want to float around with your camera i.e. family functions, wedding parties, "making of feature", extreme run and gun... it's nice to know that you have an option that's WAY better then simply using the camera mic.

So is there nothing good in under say $200 US for a good cardioid / semi-supercardioid mic and maybe stereo? Okay. I'll just wait a couple of years and check back then. :-((

Frank
hear this site:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hvdbos/cd.htm
This guy is using the Sennheiser E835. The sound is very good.
I use it as a voiceover. It sounds better as the legendary Shure SM58 which is still widely used in studios.

Most of us work with a camcorder that costs no more as 5000 euro and most of us will not buy for a couple of thousands of microphones.

In this thread i have put some mic samples:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19206
To me it shows that the difference is not that big, when you stay away form shotguns.
It is surprising to see what cheaper mics like Shure and Behringer and the Sennheiser Evolution series do, related to the most expensive mics.

Myself i don't like the Oktavas that much as other members. All the recordings I heard from the Oktava's are to bassy for me. They don' t sound like Rode NT1000 for instance. That is flat but crisp. I am very curious to hear the Behringer B-5. It has a low-cutt filter which is important for video. It should be more crisp as the Okatava and sells for 116 euro.

Often to much bass in the surroundings can distort your audiosignal and a flat response curve is not well suited for voice and videorecording.
For video the voicerecording is most important.
That is why I like the Sennheiser MD 421-II so much. It is a general purpose and very crisp sounding mic. The roll off filters can be adjusted for every situation, which is important for videorecording.
I think this gives videorecording that clarity that may be prefered above being supercardiode.

I have read more and nore comments that cardiode instead of supercardiode is not a very bad choice for video.
I still doubt about the advantage of supercardiode above cardioide. One thing is for sure: I will stay away from shotguns.

Thanks a bunch, Jan. I'm going to print this out, go over it, and look into those links. Again, thank you.

<<<-- Originally posted by Matt Gettemeier :
I'm so impressed with the Oktava that I might even get something specific from Rycote... maybe a mini-zepp and jammer or something. I hear a lot of people say the Oktava can't take the wind, but how many of them have it protected as good as they'd protect a shotgun? Put some fur and foam on it and it may be ok?-->>>

Yes, the Oktava can take winds, as long as it's inside a Rycote or Lightwave casket.

<<<-- I don't know. One thing's for sure... at $49 it leaves a lot of budget for proper support. -->>>

Good advice: you should invest in a proper support. Pick shockmounts that have internal bodies holding the mic, as they will allow picking softer rubber strings that will make the mic float inside the external ring. So you may need some tuning on the rubber used on external mic holders. When you move the combo it should wobble lik gelatine.

Oktavas MC012 are studio microphones, not boom microphones. Boom mics usually have some sort of rubber or foam holding the capsule; studio mics rarely do.

Beyer used to make an excellent shockmount, that adjusted to several mic diameters. It's hard to find it now.

The key question is to get a rubber tuning that will filter boom handling.

<<<-- Another thing you'll love about this mic is that it's so understated. The damn thing is only about 4" long. Can you imagine the EASE of booming a 4" mic? If you hit the ceiling OR drop the mic into frame then you're an idiot. -->>>

Using short microphones, like the Oktava, Schoeps or Neumann mics, particularly with swivel adapters, allows you booming in low ceiling rooms.

<<<-- With a shockmount you really CAN use this as an on-camera mic. Of course I don't normally do that, but I did test it just so I'd know my options in a pinch and it BLOWS the F*** out of the on-cam mics in my DVX. -->>>

Good to know that you normally don't use this or any mic as on-camera mikes. You shouldn't for quality dialogue picking. Only interviews done at a short distance with your zoom at wide angle may allow you that. You may also risk picking cameras noises, mechanical or handling.

Doing a through search and tests as you did would be a waste if you then put the chosen mic on your camera.

<<<-- How about the times when you just want to float around with your camera i.e. family functions, wedding parties, "making of feature", extreme run and gun... it's nice to know that you have an option that's WAY better then simply using the camera mic. -->>>

"News style" shooting, run and gun as you call them, can benefit from on-camera mic picking. Weddings or family parties will not suffer from it. But to get real quality sound you should boom your mic.


Carlos E. Martinez

This is all very interesting.

Matt, where from are your going to order Hyper caps for your Oktavas? I'd like to do the same, as I am really impressed with my two $49 M012's.

I mounted an Oktava on-camera with an AT8415, that pretty much eliminated any camera handling noise.

Has anyone tested the AT873r handheld hyper-c ($190)? It looks pretty darn good (5.1oz, 140dB SPL, good sensitivty, etc.) and might just make a great boom-pole mic.

I assume the A4053a hyper-c ($525) is awesome.

Finally, I hope you get your hands on the new AT897 short shotgun. I'm guessing AT has made its best ENG shotgun with this new model, at least the specs look excellent.

Thanks and cheers...

If you follow my posts, you'll see the AT873r pop up quite a few times. (I keep waiting for someone to say "will you stop already with the AT873r's!!").
I like this mic very much for its clarity, sensitivity, very small size and weight, low handling noise, low cost and matte black finish. It's certainly not the lowest noise mic around and I haven't directly compared it to an Oktava, but for interior booming it works very well for me for corporate work. I'm pretty certain it has lower handling noise than the Oktava, which is generally the only complaint most people have with a good QC'ed Oktava.
This AT uses an extremely small diaphragm, so its clarity comes at the expense of that phat sound even when used close up. It's definitely not a VO mic, but if you want good clarity without harshness it will definitely do that, especially if you must use it further away than you'd like. The NT3 is lower noise and warmer sounding, but much less practical for manual booming.
It also has relatively low off-axis coloration and it's easy to wind protect due to its traditional shape but very small size.
I think it's a great tool to have on hand, as long as you have full 48-volt phantom and you don't need it for VO.

The only place I know to order the Oktava hyper caps is http://www.sound-room.com

If you're only ordering TWO caps then the charge to "match them" seems a little high to me. I'd be very interested to see how they match them. (It's the same price to match 1-3 pairs of caps.)

I sent out a goofy recording of me opening a Diet Coke and shaking a rocks glass. It's a stereo recording with an NTK tube mic and one of the Oktavas. Hardly a matched set. Know what? It sounds pretty damn good.

Maybe $64 each kind of sucks after you got a compete mic for $49, but we can't be choosers here. Just because we got a bargain in one area doesn't mean that other businesses shouldn't make a reasonable living.

At least that's how I'm looking at it. Also since the Sound Room has such a good rep regarding the Oktavas you should be getting the best caps available.

About the only thing that DOES concern me is that last point. If they have the best Oktava inventory then how far from "matched" can two hyper caps BE?

BTW Aaron, the first thing it says at Sound Room is "We ship worldwide".

If you get the total Oktava kit right from the start their prices are reasonable... otherwise get a mic on ebay and buy the caps from the Sound Room? I don't know if that's a good idea or not?

Had I known I would like this mic this much I would have just got 'em as a complete 3 cap kit. The piece of mind is worth the extra cash over the lowest possible sale price from a less meticulous dealer.

Matt, Yeah I noticed that on their site ;) Sent an email off for pricing costs to here. Found a New Zealand distributor too finally so I will see if they stock them. Then I might be able to go in and try them. Your US$49 dollars was a steal! It's about US$190 now for one mic. You lucky sod! If they turn out to be better for what I need than my ME66 then I might sell the ME66 and I'd still have some cash spare.


Aaron

How come the Limies, Kiwi's n' Aussies all call people they like a silly sod, or a lucky sod? Me old grandmum used to tell me "now don't be a silly sod , dear"

Next tuesday will be the founding meeting of Gear Sluts Anon. Today Matt buys another mic , a Rode NT3 and I order a matched pair of THE hytpercardoids. Maybe if we put them in a cage together, ply them with cheap wine and soft music they'll reproduce.

Hmm that's interesting actually....I have no idea of it's historical origins but It's usually used, in the case of "lucky sod" as a congratulation mixed with a bit of jealousy or envy. Sod is a very tame insult, if it can be called that at all (Like the word "bugger" in "Ya lucky bugger").

This reminds me of a WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) show where they went to Australia. Some of the wrestlers were talking with a local and the local said something along the lines of "Yeah yeah, I know who you buggers are." They took offence thinking of course "bugger" to be a vile word. ;)

Good old slang aye!

Well, guess before it even starts I have cured myself from having to join "Gear Sluts Anonymous" by going and buying a house :)...Although the temptation is oh so there, especially with the exchange rates to the US at the moment. I still need a production video monitor....DV deck....Light kit....

Aaron