Now that it's been out for a few months...I'm wondering if there's more feedback. I have an XL1s with an MA200 adaptor. I'll be loading on wireless receivers and with time, probably more accessories. I have a price of $1,400.

Does this sound like a good match? I've read other posts with positive reviews of the Vinten and Sachler. Are they preferable. I'm a producer/correspondent but have shot a fair amount as well. Once had the high end Sachler for my old BetaCam and loved it.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Jim

The higher end tripods are great. But the Miller/Manfrotto's
aren't bad either. Couldn't find anything on google.

Local dealer here in Thailand is out of Miller DS10 heads and is trying to tempt me with a good price on a DS20. I'll be using it on Solo legs.

The trouble is that the DS20's advertised payload range is 5kg-10kg but I will be putting less than this on it (VX2000/Z1/HVX200 = 2-2.5kg, a bit more with W/A lens).

Do you think it will work OK or should I wait for him to get more DS10 stock?

Nick

I don't think it will be OK. The advertised payload range for the head is for compatibility with the spring counterbalance. Since you will be putting much less weight on the head than the payload range, the head will feel extra stiff in the tilt direction, instead of feeling neutral.

According to the specs there are two payload settings. Their specs state as follows
Counterbalance- flexible camera carrying capacity with 2 counterbalance positions. Position 1 lets you support up to 5kg miniDv camcorder loads, while Position 2 handles up to an impressive 10kg of DVCAM camcorder.

so according to the above you should be OK.

Regards

Mick

Position 1 lets you support up to 5kg miniDv camcorder loads, while Position 2 handles up to an impressive 10kg of DVCAM camcorder.


But he's only supporting 2-2.5 kg, which is less than half of the "1" setting. The point of the counterbalance is to make the tilt feel neutral throughout its range. Now he will be fighting the counterbalance with a 2.5 to 3 kg difference. That's a lot!

Just put some 3kg weight extra item on, it will be fine.

But he's only supporting 2-2.5 kg, which is less than half of the "1" setting. The point of the counterbalance is to make the tilt feel neutral throughout its range. Now he will be fighting the counterbalance with a 2.5 to 3 kg difference. That's a lot!

The DS10 has two ranges itself within its 5kg limit which obviously gives more options. For example range 1 for a VX2000 on it's own, and range 2 for Z1 + wide angle lens + mic.

I think I'll hold out for the DS10. Thanks for the replies.

Nick

The height of the COG of the camera above the rotational axis of the tilt is also significant, 125 mm seems to be a common standard. I have raised my XM2 by about 20 mm using a Manfrotto sliding plate, to improve the counterbalance on a Manfrotto 503.

The DS10 has two ranges itself within its 5kg limit which obviously gives more options. For example range 1 for a VX2000 on it's own, and range 2 for Z1 + wide angle lens + mic.

I think I'll hold out for the DS10. Thanks for the replies.

Nick

You are doing the right thing by waiting. I had a VX2100 on a DS10. The DS10 is what you want.

Nick

I got the DS10 and Solo legs about 6 months ago. I like how it works but I've used it very little and it's never got wet but already there is corrosion on the aluminium bowl where it's been sitting in storage against the bottom of the head. The aluminium has gone a bit powdery/pitted and the paint nearby has blistered. It still functions OK but I'm disappointed.

I guess the bottom of the head is cast iron and so it's galvanic corrosion because of the different metals. It is humid here in Thailand. I'm now storing the legs and head separately. I suppose I could try and get a replacement bowl under warranty. I'll probably email Miller direct about it.

Just thought I'd mention this so others could think about storing the legs and head separately.

I'm actually not sure what a squirrel's squeak sounds like, that was purely speculative.

Anyhow, I just picked up a DS20 with some nice carbon-fibre legs second hand off ebay- it was part of a bargain kit (PD150 + Sennie ME-66 & K-6 + Sony Wireless Lavs + DS20 + Bits and Bobs= AU$2500) that I'm using to replace some crappy gear.

I was quite looking forward to the DS20- as I've been a big fan whenever I've used Miller gear- however I sadly found, at the very first pan of the head, that all traces of "fluid" had been replaced by "grating squeaking horror."

In fact whenever either the tilt or pan drag knobs are turned to anything but the "drag off" position, it feels like two metal plates are just scraping against each other, and when the drag is cranked right up, most pan or tilt movements are met with a horrendous squeaking noise.

Not knowing anything about how a fluid head works, can I ask what may have happened to this lovely, poor creature? Is this a common thing to occur? Is this common to miller (surely not?). Can I fix it with canola oil? (That last one is only half-serious).

Matt,

The DS10 and DS20 only have one level of fluid drag. The drag adjustment they provide is a "friction boost". According to the manual:

The DS10/DS20 fluid head provides adjustment for tilt and pan drag control (Fig 4.) Rotate clockwise to engage friction resistance, anticlockwise to return to fluid action.

Note: The fluid drag plate system has been designed to suit most operating conditions. The friction drag adjustment should only be utilized when extra resistance is required.

So what you're hearing probably is the friction boost.

With that said, my OConnor fluid head does make a very, very slight noise when I move it. Although, it literally sounds like fluid moving around.

Hey Tim, thanks for the reply.

I hadn't realised the drag adjustment was a friction thing- I think I was assuming that the DS20 was something far more incredible than it actually is.

That's not to say it's a crappy head- it's smooth and creamy- i'll just not touch the drag adjustment ever again.

Nick
The upside is that you can send the kit back to Oz to get it fixed up ant tropicalized, you're not far away.

Philip Bloom Blog Archive Miller DS20 Tripod Review (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/02/20/miller-ds20-tripod-review/)

Hopefully this shows you just how cool this little baby is...

Phil, nice review. I had a look at the Miller stand at Broadcast Video Expo in London this week and was very (VERY!) taken with the idea of a DS20 on Solo legs for my EX3. They are sending me a brochure so I can drool some more....

However, after a quick search on here I found the thread below from a little while back which talks of a worrying corrosion problem with them - sounds like it's because of a pretty basic but fundamental design flaw.

Anyone care to comment on this issue from their own personal experiences of it? (or lack of it)

Miller DS20 OK for VX2000/Z1? - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=61529&highlight=miller+ds20)

I see local listing for a Miller 20 Series 2 tripod. Does anyone have any info on this tripod? The seller listed this link for reference: Used Video Equipment Sales - Professional Video, Audio, and Broadcast Equipment - New Pro Video (http://www.newprovideo.com/catalog_6854.html)

But there's no specs on size, weight, load, etc. I think it might be an older model so I'm not sure how much its worth.

OK, now this thread has been amalgamated (with the one I linked to above) by the mods, anyone got any comments about both the sqeaking noise and the corrosion points mentioned? Are these isolated problems or more general issues with the Miller DS20?

Sorry for the bump ....but I really want to know before I consider spending the best part of £1000 on one of these...especially since money will be tight now I've seen the Sterling price of the new Mac Pro I'm just about to buy :- (

Thanks!

Andy, I just took another look at my tripod. Back then I smeared the surfaces of the bowl and head with a bit of silicone grease and started packing them separately but more recently I have just been storing them together. I can report that the corrosion has not got any worse at all and absolutely does not affect the function. My tripod may just have been an isolated case where it wasn't finished very well. I wouldn't really let this issue put you off getting one, but I would smear a little grease or petroleum jelly on those surfaces.

My DS10/Solo combo has done pretty good service now, although I haven't used it a huge amount. It really is easy to transport and set up and can give stablilty in a huge variety of tricky situations. It does feel like it gets smoother after a bit of use each time I use it, like it needs to be "warmed up", so when I get started on a shoot I usually spin it back and forth rapidly several times. But it's certainly not "graunchy". I have only used it with a VX2000 and a Z1 and I have never used the friction drag. To be honest I wish it didn't have that feature because all I ever do with it is make sure it's wound all the way off.

Thanks Nick. Any other user comments from anyone else with one of these DS10 or DS20s?

I have the DS20 Solo Carbon for my EX3 as a super lightweight travel kit. I think that it is great. Performs well, easy to carry and perfect for smaller shoots. You can see it in use here recently on a shoot on Great Mercury Island: Ben Ruffell (http://www.ruff.co.nz/Photos/Photosbehindscenes/photosbehindscenes.html)

For a small form factor piece of kit I have no complaints.

Ben

Thanks Nick. Any other user comments from anyone else with one of these DS10 or DS20s?

We've had several DS10 heads fail and they're not really economical to repair.
One issue to watch out for is the rosettes used to lock the pan handle can grind away as they're only diecast. Once that happens you'll most likely need to replace the head unless you know someone with a mill or if you're very handy with a file. You could in theory mill or file away a little the housing and drill and tap two holes to fit a replacement rosette from the more expensive Miller heads or from someone like P+S Teckniks.
Your best approach to minimising this problem is to make certain the pan handle is tightened down hard so it cannot slip and is completely loosened off when adjusting it or in transit.

The Solo legs themselves are excellent.

I've got a 12 year old Miller DS-20, before the Solo, still going strong. The only thing I've had to do is to re-glue one spreader lock.

I've got a 12 year old Miller DS-20, before the Solo, still going strong. The only thing I've had to do is to re-glue one spreader lock.

Agreed. We've had no problems with the heads on our 4 DS-10s or 3 VJ-20s and they've done a lot of miles. Something changed at the time they started selling the Solo. Miller are aware of this, I've certainly made my feelings very clear to them and the local sales rep was in agreement that their heads are not what they used to be.

OK, thanks for all the replies. I think I'll pass on this DS-20 Solo for now and keep going with my Libec LS37 for a while longer until they sort this out.

I just received my DS-20 solo carbon fiber setup, and first impressions are mixed. I purchased this setup for a month long assignment I am going on to Chile. I already had a Manfrotto 503/351 combo that has served me well with my XL2 but I was never truly happy with the pan performance of the 503. It rebounds enough on a pan that it is totally unacceptable with my HD setup, namely my EX3. So based on the reviews and comments around I decided the DS-20 would make a good system for my trip.

First the head. It is a perfect match for the EX3 in balance spring setting one. The fluid drag seems to work properly and there is no rebound or stiction. As long as you don't care to add any more drag than the default setting, all is fine. Add some friction in the pan and it doesn't perform very well at all. It sticks and is pretty rough. Perhaps it improves with break in, but I won't be using any added drag because it takes away from the smoothness of the head completely.

Next, the legs. They are light and well made. They aren't as stiff as I had hoped however. They wind up a considerable more amount than my Manfrotto 351s. I realize that everything is a compromise but I expected a bit better. At least leg windup can be compensated for much easier than the rebound in a Manfrotto 503 "fluid" head.

Together, the package makes a nice travel setup even if just a bit springy on the legs. Don't get me wrong, it's not wobbly or anything unacceptable like that. The trade off here is the nice lack of excess weight and the versatility of the legs and the positions that can be used.

If I had this decision to make again, I might have gone for the Manfrotto 519 head on my existing legs. Fortunately the Miller DS-20 also fits on the Manfrotto 351 legs so I can use a heavier setup when I need or want to. The 351 legs aren't the best either but they are a bit stiffer.

Final thoughts: Buy the DS-20 Solo system if you have no other tripod system yet and want a versatile do almost anything setup. As is common with do it all devices, it isn't the best for any one particular task but it is a good buy. Just make sure you know what you are buying going in.

This is my follow up from Chile where I am currently on assignment.

So far the Miller DS20 Solo carbon fibre system is just OK.

The head works fine as long as you don't expect zero movement during lockup and release on the vertical and horizontal axis. A light touch, a very light touch, is needed to just add enough lock or it will shift. This is in contradiction to the manual which states that the disc brake lockup causes no shift. This is far from the truth. Pans a tilts have been good, very smooth and controllable with no wind up or back step. The drag boost is another function that is questionable in its function and smoothness so far.

The legs are very good and very versatile. My initial assessment of their stiffness has been tempered with use. I like them very much.

I have encountered no reliability issues yet and have had to work with this system in run and gun situations.

Upon removing the locking screws for pan and tilt, it is apparent that a small modification could be made to ake lock ups movement free and it would add nothing to the cost. Currently the locking screws are flat on the end. If the were made ever so slightly convex then I am sure the problem would go away and this would be a very good system instead of just OK.

I intend to try out or even buy a Manfrotto 519 upon my return to Canada in two weeks to see which is a better head. I suspect I will like the 519 more.

This is my follow up from Chile where I am currently on assignment.

So far the Miller DS20 Solo carbon fibre system is just OK.

The head works fine as long as you don't expect zero movement during lockup and release on the vertical and horizontal axis. A light touch, a very light touch, is needed to just add enough lock or it will shift. This is in contradiction to the manual which states that the disc brake lockup causes no shift. This is far from the truth. Pans a tilts have been good, very smooth and controllable with no wind up or back step. The drag boost is another function that is questionable in its function and smoothness so far.

The legs are very good and very versatile. My initial assessment of their stiffness has been tempered with use. I like them very much.

I have encountered no reliability issues yet and have had to work with this system in run and gun situations.

Upon removing the locking screws for pan and tilt, it is apparent that a small modification could be made to ake lock ups movement free and it would add nothing to the cost. Currently the locking screws are flat on the end. If the were made ever so slightly convex then I am sure the problem would go away and this would be a very good system instead of just OK.

I intend to try out or even buy a Manfrotto 519 upon my return to Canada in two weeks to see which is a better head. I suspect I will like the 519 more.


Hey Les.

So now that you've had the Miller DS-20 Solo for a while do you still think it's just "OK"?

I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on one. I have been using a Manfrotto 501 with aluminum legs and a column. They act like the miller legs in that you can position them individually, and go low when you remove the column. So to anyone, I have been looking for a system that works the same as far as the legs go, but is of much higher quality. The Miller DS-20 Solo set up looks the closest. I've seen Philip Blooms review. I like the looks of everything, except that you have to screw the things on the legs to extend, rather than the flip locks on my Manfrotto.

Questions:

• Is there a comparable system to the miller DS-20 Solo that's better for under 2,000.00?

• Does the Miller head actually collect metal scrapings and grind them around like I read in this thread? I mean that's probably a unique occurrence, but is Miller gear solid?


Thanks!

Chadfish

Hey Les.

So now that you've had the Miller DS-20 Solo for a while do you still think it's just "OK"?


Questions:

• Is there a comparable system to the miller DS-20 Solo that's better for under 2,000.00?

• Does the Miller head actually collect metal scrapings and grind them around like I read in this thread? I mean that's probably a unique occurrence, but is Miller gear solid?


Thanks!

Chadfish

Short answer: Don't get the Miller DV20 Solo.

Long answer: Read my comparison here.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/238166-sachtler-fsb-8-75-cf-speed-lock-vs-miller-dv20-solo-cf.html

The Sachtler setup is much better. Even possibly better is to get the Sachtler FSB head:

and put it on Gitzo legs such as:
Gitzo | GT3531LSV Systematic 6X Carbon Fiber Tripod | GT3531LSV (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/548419-REG/Gitzo_GT3531LSV_GT3531LSV_Systematic_6X_Carbon.html)

or

if you want really tall:
Gitzo | GT3541XLS Systematic 6X Carbon Fiber Tripod | GT3541XLS (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/569167-REG/Gitzo_GT3541XLS_GT3541XLS_Systematic_6X_Carbon.html)
but it will require the bowl adapter:
Gitzo | GS5320V75 75mm Bowl Adapter | GS5320V75 | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/569199-REG/Gitzo_GS5320V75_GS5320V75_75mm_Bowl_Adapter.html)

Thanks Les.

The Sachtler FSB8 was the main contender as far as heads go. I'm not so sure about the legs that come with it in the 2,000.00 package. I've heard complaints. But those long Gitzo GT354XLS legs look just about right, though with the 75mm adapter we're talking 2,400.00 I may just have to bite the bullet and get it. I think with the FSB8, and the Gitzo legs I'm still coming in under 10lbs too. I have major back issues, so a lite setup is important.

Another possibility with the Gitzo legs is that one can add a column if desired. I have been working that way with my bogen 501. I like having one adjustment to raise the height quickly, so maybe the short Gitzo legs and a column. Decisions decisions...

Thanks again man. Throw up any more good "bang for buck" options you may know of.

Chadfish

You will never regret paying for good equipment. If I were you, I would stretch for the tall legs and have everything the right way. A centre column will not allow the FSB to attach without a flat to bowl adapter that is different from the bowl adapter already mentioned. Adn you would also have to buy the normal top for the shorter legs to hold the centre column. It gets messy!

I think the tall legs and an FSB-8 will be the right thing.

I think so too Les!

It's on now...

I went ahead and got the long Gitzo legs and bowl adapter. I'm going to have to wait on the Sachtler head until the money from a Jingle I just produced comes in.

There are 2 similar Sachtler heads. I think I'm going for the cheaper one:

There's the FSB8 at 1,500.00: Sachtler | 0707 FSB-8 Fluid Head (Black) | 0707 | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/610981-REG/Sachtler_0707_0707_FSB_8_Fluid_Head.html)


And there's the FSB8T at 1,675.00: Sachtler | 0705 FSB-8T Fluid Head (Black) | 0705 | B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/610982-REG/Sachtler_0705_0705_FSB_8T_Fluid_Head.html)

I'm not really sure what the difference is, but I'm sure that either are better than the Miller stuff.

The difference is that the "T" model has a quick release plate that is independent of the fore/aft adjustment. The non "T" model has the sliding plate as the quick release plate.

The "T" model's advantage is that you can pull the camera off, and put it back on with having to be careful to reposition it to retain balance. The disadvantage is the rather small foot print of the plate and the possible lack of strength or stability of the attachment to the camera.

I have the non "T" model and have no problems, but some people strongly prefer to be able to mount and dismount the camera while not having to worry about repeating balance points.

Apologies to the forum users for the huge change of topic in this thread. We should have taken it to another thread.

I think it all related. I was interested in the Miller too at first. No possible Miller purchasers have some cool alternatives.