Update:

Went over to best buy where they are selling a very cheap cd player/discman for 17.99 with a 5 buck instant rebate... so 12.99 plus tax leaving the store. Took this thing apart with a srewdriver and found that the motor that spins the disc can be completely seperated from the rest of the board and stuff... giving you the red and black wires off of the motor in which to hook up to a battery pack (which you can get at radio shack... I have a 2 triple A pack.) In between I also have wired a on off switch (also from radio shack). And believe me if I can do this... anyone can because I don't know crap about electronics. This is also the best way to do this thus far. The radio shack toy motors Agus reccoments make WAY too much noise, not even usuable with a boom, and vibrate WAY too much (that could be fixed with a stable design but why not just spend the extra 10 bucks and get the cd player motor and you won't spend endless house trying to center the cd on the toy motor and kill yourself when you realize the shots look great but you'll never be able to reccord dialogue with a device using that motor). So believe me... use the cd motor!

I am using a wide angle adapter I had (minus the wide lens like agus is doing) for my trv20 on my sony pd150. Problem is that you must zoom in a little to get away from the vinnetting of the actual lens. I went to NEWTONVILLE CAMERA looking for a macro lens and first off the clerk on the phone told me this adapter was not possile and tons of people were coming into his store recently buying and returning lenses, no one ever successful. I went there and proved to him that it does indeed work, however he was unable to produce me a 58mm threaded macro lens that would work with this device. (he had some macro lenses but they went out of focus before you could zoom out the vinnetting.)

I also managed to remove the motor from an old, broken CD player I had--only broke a few weeks ago, too, good thing I didn't throw it out! Stripped the wires, tapped 'em to a AA battery, thing spun up just fine. Best thing is, since it's a portable player, it has the little springy-ball "clip" style spindle. Holds the CD in place without glue, and spins at a nice speed (I think).

Now I just gotta get the equipment necessary to mount this bad boy to my VX2000, and the means to attach a lens to the front, and I can finish this project.

Peter or Robert, what was the model of the cd player or is it just any old cheap discman? I might buy it today and finish my version of the Agus35 using 35mm film cans by tonight. I already got an image and i just want to better stabilize the system by using another can before i post pics. I'm using tiffen macro lens +1, +2, +4 combined for a +7 for $39 at a local photo store. It worked out fine, but it seems using the cd motor might be the solution to the vibration sound problem.

For Peter Sciretta. - I used a generic 42mm eyepiece of chinese origin to fit Tasco telescopes, extracted the lenses to make up an adaptor from PD150 to PNP-HG night-vision intensifier. This frames the 18mm diameter display tightly top to bottom when the zoom is wide and corner to corner at about 25% in. It wouldn't be any use for the 35mm image frame size but a lower power two element lens set of similar design might.

In my early prototyping I used a similar less powerful lens set in a sub-assembly out of a Sony VCR16B telecine adaptor (a 16mm C mount lens, a macro spacer, a mirror, a ND filter and the two lenses in a module, all enclosed). This framed closer to the 35mm frame size and needed a lot more zoom to come in to frame onto the 18mm diameter display tube target.

There might be some benefit in experimenting with 90degree consumer telescope eyepieces and barlow lenses. I think the eyepiece lenses may be too powerful, but there may be something there - just a thought.

Both of these lens sets I describe do not erect the inverted image.

Just to tie some loose threads:

Agus's sugestion of finding a "cheap wide angle" with macro is fine, but you have to be sure you're getting one large enough for your lens's threading. For the GL1/GL2's out there, a good choice might be this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2970527767&category=30069). Not sure if the VX2000 has the same threading...

CD motors are great design choices -- they're so quiet.

Uhm, that's it for now.

- jim

For those using a CD motor - AWESOME! I am glad it worked. Could you tell me how far you are putting the CD away from the lens, I mean are you having to extend it out very far (I know this will differ for different cameras, but I am speaking in general). And, if you are, how are you doing it? I will be making the trip to Best Buy soon...thanks for the info Peter!

Clay

Peter -

In answer to your question about the telephoto lens adapter ... the slide on the bottom of the support has a screw to adjust the length of the arm. So you'd have another 6" extension that you don't see in my photo.

Sorry for the lagged response (been very busy during Christmas season). Can't wait to get back to work on this project.

Richard

I have been getting all my materials together to build an Agus35 with a DVX100. I bought a 30 pack CD spindle but I am not sure where i should place the spinning CD. Would it be better to place it by the Camcorder lens or the SLR 50mm lens? Should you place the CD as close to the lens as possible?

Ok folks ....i have some test video ...from a very very basic agus35. ......Let me just say that .....the video example is very poor quality. ....nothing at all like agus' videos. ....This is strickly a test.


www.elpez.com/agus35test.mpg


Here's what I did. ...I took a cardboard box ...cut a hole in each end ....stuck my vivitar lens in one end ...and the canon gl2 in the other end. ....i slit a hole in the top ....and stuck a sand papered clear CD in the top ....then i just shot some video. .......

A few notes

Lighting is definitely a problem ....As you can see ...it was very dark ...and I had the settings cranked up pretty high in the gl2

Another thing .....Agus recommened using 600 grit sandpaper ....I didnt have 600 ....so i used 150 .........as you can see it puts huge scratches in the CD ........Also .......as you can probably see ....the CD (ground glass) ...is not spinning. ....

Aaron ......I posted a question about the round bright spot .....I fixed that problem ..... ..I hadnt sanded the CD enough. ....I took the CD out ..sanded it some more ...and that ...essentially diffused the bright round light.

Hope i didnt offend Agus by constructing such a bad test agus35 ...

let me know if you have any questions or comments


chris.

<<<-- Originally posted by Louis Grimaldo : I have been getting all my materials together to build an Agus35 with a DVX100. I bought a 30 pack CD spindle but I am not sure where i should place the spinning CD. Would it be better to place it by the Camcorder lens or the SLR 50mm lens? Should you place the CD as close to the lens as possible? -->>>

it depends on your lens and camera, like mine is 1 3/4" away from the 50mm ans 3/4" away from the camera.

Just experiment untill you get a clear projection on the gg.

hehe...I guess I better let the cat out of the bag now- (mine is adjustable :) I will post some pics of my setup in a while.

posing a thought ...and asking a question ....

isnt there some sort of material out there ...like wax paper .....that you could put in the place of the GG ........like ..the translucent screen in an SLR camera. ......that way ..you could have a clean enough image ..without having to spin the projection screen (ground glass)

my question is ......what percentage of the original picture ...(720 X 480) are you losing.......by zooming in to the image close enough to eliminate vignetting.

for exampe ...are you ending up with ....a 680 X 420 image?? ....


chris

OK I'll take a stab

# 1 even a very pure frosted (Wax Paper) type substrate is going to have issues because your taking 24-30fps it going to look like your filming thru a screen because the grain will not change overtime, unlike film who's grain is organic like due to changing it's pattern every frame. at least thats my take on it.

and #2
your not losing any resolution because you have not hit the cameras CCD's yet they are going to take a 720X480 sample of what ever they see.

I'm working on my plans right now, I really look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with.

Luke

heres my version,

im still experimenting with having to zoom slightly. I think that I can get the camera closer to the gg.

the gg is adjustable by moving the fan frame along the guide bolts.

I have a fresnel lens 1/8" away from the gg mounted on guitar wire.

I am using a Sima wide angle lens that I got at Bestbuy for $30 then removed the WA lens portion leaving the macro in place, If I just move the cam 1/2" closer I have a great picture without zooming, but I dont have a good way to secure it properly so I left it alone for now.

I also noticed that the final image is very dark, I might need a lighter gg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/pca37d824a102290f6a018832f9788a14/fa531005.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/p13887b61f0791cf595427ac76b863548/fa531004.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/pd377ca006084d6c60555434c2779084c/fa531009.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/p903d9d22a9eca56f659aef6ea5db817c/fa53082e.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/pdca90aa84d2b4e2aabf3b86f7bc002c8/fa528f0c.jpg

gaspain

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Yurek : Interesting. VERY interesting. I may have to steal your idea of using the fan casing when I make mine. And is that a fresnel lens in the shot where the CD is off? -->>>

ya thats the fresnel, im still unshure of the proper distance away from the GG, rit now its about 1/8" away (1/4" would be better)

Im pretty happy with using the fan. Its quiet and smooth. I used a part from an old DVD player to hold the CD, gluing that on center of the fan was a pain to get it centered. I also had to trim alot of plastic of the shroud with a mill so the GG wouldnt rub.

Originally posted by John Gaspain : heres my version,

im still experimenting with having to zoom slightly. I think that I can get the camera closer to the gg...

Very cool. I'm using that same box housing from Radio Shack, but my design isn't nearly as industrial.

For those of you using the CD motor -- I noticed my portable CD player uses two "AA" batteries. Would upping that to a 9v stress the wiring or motor itself?

Also...my latest trip to Home Depot had me looking over the sandpaper section. I've already used 150 on my GG, and 600 was nowhere in sight. Agus, and others who've experienced success with their design -- can we see close-up, clean shots of your GG?

- jim

On my trip to HomeDepot the finest grit sandpaper I could find was 400 grit. It seemed to work well.
Mike

If not using sandblasted or chemically etched glass, I would be inclined to get hold of some 600 grade lapidary grit (silicon carbide), clamp two clear CD disks back to back with a firm seal around the inner hub and outer diameter edges, put a bunch of bearing balls into a gemstone tumbler barrel with the grit and water, turn it on and leave it to its own devices for a few hours.

As long as the two disks have not moved against each other or grit got in between them, you should end up with two clear disks with a translucent surface on one side and smooth on the other.

I would do only one pair in a barrel at a time as sliding edges will cause long scratches not short pitts.

Just a thought.

i am using 2 AAA batteries (1.5 volts each) on the cd motor and I think thats going too fast and making more noise then it should... not nearly as much as the radio shack kiddie motors but noticable noise... any suggestions?

BTW: What project box size you guys using?

Bob, you're actually close to the mark on how to create real ground glass. You basically take the grit, add a bit of water, and rub two pieces of glass together for about 20 minutes. Using that method you can create better-than-professional-grade true GG, if you take your time at it :-)

paulb

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Sciretta : i am using 2 AAA batteries (1.5 volts each) on the cd motor and I think thats going too fast and making more noise then it should... not nearly as much as the radio shack kiddie motors but noticable noise... any suggestions?

BTW: What project box size you guys using? -->>>

7x5x3, its takes a bit of heat to make the GG fit without rubbing

may burn the motor out if it doesn't it will spin REALLY FAST!

I took the motor/CD holder out of an old portable CD player, snapped a CD into it and connected it to 3v. WHOA! It spins too fast. The gyroscopic effect was very pronounced and I was concened if my"Agus35 Mark 12 Pro Rev 1.0" was jerked to quickly the CD might come of holder!

I then connected it to a single 1.5v cell and its much better. It still spins at a good rate.

Tom

www.elpez.com/agus35test.mpg linked

Here are two pictures of my quick-and-dirty attempt to make one of these things. It works! Now I'm going to spend a few dollars and make a nice one.

The lense was biult into a 35mm camera and by the time I wrestled it out it could no longer be focused. I changed the motor on it and had to mount the lense backward to get it far enough from the GG. The big gash in the side is from only having 100 packs of CDs and having to cut a huge hole to shove my camera into.

http://vistatheater.org/~rhenry/agus35/agus35-1-front.jpg
http://vistatheater.org/~rhenry/agus35/agus35-1-side.jpg

For those looking for fine grit sandpaper, try the auto parts store in the paint section. They usually have really fine grit wet/dry paper for doing touch up or other paint/body work. I have gotten 1000 grit at auto part stores before. They should at least have 600...

I added an adjustable fresnel lens

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/pdca90aa84d2b4e2aabf3b86f7bc002c8/fa528f0c.jpg

edited to say: HELL YEA! thats what i needed! its adjusted out a little over 1/4". This fixed any vignetting.

<<<-- Originally posted by J. Clayton Stansberry : John,

A couple of questions:
1. Where did you get the freznel lens?
2. Where did you get the fan?
3. Is the box the one from Radio Shack?
4. When are we going to see some footage with the fix?
5. Plans?

Agus,
How are your plans coming?

Thanks in advance...
Clay -->>>

1-Walgreens $1.50
2-computer store
3-radio shack
4-I need a better GG, so in a while
5-Just look at the pictures for now

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Bettner : Hey John, what tool did you use to cut such perfect holes in the box? -->>>

I used a hole saw attachment on my milling machine, a drill should work tho

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter A. Smith : John what's the size of the fresnel lens 2x3? -->>>

it was 2x3 :) then I cut it up into 2x2

http://scientificsonline.com/search.asp?t=ss&ss=fresnel+lens

Here's are several decent Fresnel lenses you can get and then cut down to what size you need.

Here's another place as well:

http://www.3dlens.com/fresnellens.htm

Do you see the lines from the fresnel lens on your recorded image?

To invert the image you could also inster a dove prism in between the GG and the camcorder lens or fresnel:

http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg137&Category_Code=Dove+Prisms

John,

Thanks for the answers. I am going to try to get started this weekend. Is the fresnel lens used so that you don't have to zoom in so far? And, how much does it help the problem of not having enough light? Thanks again...

Clay

So is the fresnel a good replacement for a macro adapter? Which would be better?

Thanks

The way I see it, the fresnel is placed between the SLR lens and the GG to focus the light more directly onto the GG.

1..2.3....4..5.6.7.........
[| < |==== | [|[|CCD

1.SLR lens
2.Unfocused light rays from SLR lens
3.Fresnel Lens (about 1/4 inch from the GG)
4.Redirected Light Rays (reduced vigneting)
5.GG
6.Macro Lens attatched to Video Camera's lens to allow it to focus on the 35 mm negative sized image on the GG while zoomed in.
7.Video Camera

Hope this helps some ppl out...excuse my terrible ascii art skills,
Spencer

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse :

Have you even tried that ? cause i believe it wont work, the fresnel have to be after the GG and before the Camera. -->>>

I've tried it and its the only way i belive it will work. Also take a look at John Gaspain's design:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid92/pd377ca006084d6c60555434c2779084c/fa531009.jpg

I don't think the fresnel is accomplishing anything optically if you place it after the GG. By then all is done in terms of vignetting on the GG, nothing you can do to change it from the Camera side besides zooming past it.

Anyone else try out a fresnel?

Spencer

I am experiencing a high flicker... anyone have any idea why?

here are two pics (after film look post) from video i did today

http://www.orfilms.com/luke1.jpg

http://www.orfilms.com/luke2.jpg

Agus, John, and anyone else who has made one,

How do you know where to cut the holes? Obviously, one hole has to be bigger than the other. Do you just guess as to where they should be?

Is a fresnel lens the same thing as a magnifying glass? I went to Walgreens and got a bausch and lomb "magna-thin" magnifier as it is the closest thing they had that resembled what John used. Is this it?

John, I bought the bigger box (8X6X3) and the GG clears it fine...just a little more bulky. I have all the stuff ready to go, but don't want to mess anything up and have to start over. Also, John, how did you connect the camera to the box?

Ok, can't wait to get started. Thanks in advance for the advice!

Clay

To Peter Sciretta.

High flicker. My guess is you are getting an intensity strobe effect which might be related to variations in density or texture of your groundglass surface and the disk rpm coming close to the frame rate of your camera which means that although the texture of the surface will be moving fast enough past the frame to average out all the small defects, larger patches of say quarter to half a disk size will phase in and out of your frame. The scratches on your groundglass disk - are there some which go straight across the disk or uniformly circular in an even finish?

Your 35mm lens centreline axis is also bent off-centre to the left in your second frame so I guess you are at very early prototype stage yet.

According to this link from what i understand: http://www.camerascreens.com/PDF/Installation_Guide_For_View_Cameras.pdf

You put the fresnel lens between the gg and the lens.

Here's a difinition from B&H photo: A fresnel lens is an accessory for a groundglass focusing screen. It helps "even-out" the brightness of the groundglass image and make the image appear brighter. The effect is more noticeable with wide angle lenses. Fresnel lenses are essential when using reflex housings.

I haven't tried this out, but i'm going to assume it should be place between the gg and lens.

Clay just know the size of your SLR lens and Camcorder lens, then get a hole saw or a mill and drill the holes. You need to convert the millimeter sizes to inches e.g. 37mm = 1 1/2 inches
52mm = 2 1/8 inches, 58mm = 2 3/8 inches

Friendly advise from a fellow Texan

Peace Peter

My bad Clay you asked where to put the holes. You have to be careful aligning the lens hole and camera hole. I goofed once and had the lens hole lower than the camera by 1/4 inch. So one side of the film can became useless. Just measure and mark each placement of your holes including your motor and thay should lessen the degree of the vignetting.

More friendly advise from a fellow Texan

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the advice. I got out the ol' trusty tape measure and got the inch readings. I hope to find center of both and somehow line them up and get them centered. I just didn't know if anyone else had any tried and true methods. I am still wondering about where to drill the holes on the box (CD spindle)??? I guess that's what makes this so great...fly by the seat of your pants! Well, we'll see what I come up with if I don't hear from anyone else...

Clay

Just tested my frosted CD with the lens, was surprised it looked very good and it wasn't even in a casing. Will try and get this done over the next week and post some footage.

I put the scratched cd directly infront of my GL2 and it went into macro mode and focussed on the cd, would I still need a fresnel lens or a macro adapter?

I'll test some more when I have a casing.

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Sciretta : I am experiencing a high flicker... anyone have any idea why?

here are two pics (after film look post) from video i did today

http://www.orfilms.com/luke1.jpg

http://www.orfilms.com/luke2.jpg -->>>

Hey man, that looks really cool, BTW i am upgrading my Agus35 using all the tips that everybody have posted here. I am making a support skeleton using aluminiun rods, also i am making a matte box which can be attached to the whole thing.

I will post some footage soon and also the plans, which seens not necesary ... :-) but still will make them...

for all the newbiews here is some footage.

http://altoque.tv/maserati.wmv

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/kartfilm.mov
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto35mmfilmtest2v4.mov
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/spotAdapter35mm2.wmv

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/Agus35maseratitest.wmv

Some pics

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm7_0004.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm7_0005.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0001.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0003.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0008.jpg

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto01.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto02.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto03.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto04.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto05.jpg

Alright, some questions on tightening up the design...

I put mine together tonight, after having received my macro zoom yesterday, and it's functional, but there is a noticable haze around everything.

I used 600 grit sandpaper, and did my best to put down an even surface. I've got my apertures wide open, and setting the 35mm lens to an infinite focal plane, I've set my DV camera's manual focus.

So: how do I remove the haze, or cut it down significantly?

Agus -- in your experience, was haze a problem? If so, do I need to up the speed of my motor? (I'm using a CD motor, but have a Radio Shack 18,000rpm motor at hand...)

Jesus this needs light :)

- jim

Dunno what is haze ....

BTW.. tip for all, i found a little teasure... look for fake cds what are already translucent... they are 100% perfect GG !!!!! I found 2, and i have a 20% image improvement...

what do you mean fake cds?

<<<-- Originally posted by Danny Tan : what do you mean fake cds? -->>>

They are the CDS that protect the CDR in the 50 spindle packs, they are useless, and they are crystal clear. but some have a traslucent texture in one side that works a like a perfect GG

Agus,
Are you saying do not sand the translucent CD we get in the case? Fake CDs, this is all I can think of. "ook for fake cds what are already translucent." Then, what is the purpose of spinning them? I have all the stuff sitting in front of me to make the AGUS35, but want the best results...that's why I haven't made it yet! Spill the beans Agus! We need detailed news! You are the man....

Clay

No no no ... most spindles comes up with fakes cds that are absolutely clear, but some of them in one side have a sanded texture just like a real Ground Glass, those are not needed to be sanded... cause they have a sanded texture already made..

i have been trying to build a baseplate with rods similar to http://www.jbkcine.com/i-1.JPG

i made it, but still isnt too rigid. need to work more...

ANOTHER TIP..

when painting the Agus35, be sure to paint the inside side, cause if you dont, any scratch could ruin your paint and you dont want any outside light to ruin the image in the GG

Agus,

What brand of CDs are you buying that have this "already grounded glass?" The two I have are clear, so I must frost them myself (man I hope I don't screw both up!). As for the support, I am hoping to get some long rectangular aluminum brackets that create a mount to both my camera and box (I plan to use lots of washers). We'll see what old Lowe's (a hardware store here in Texas) comes up with! The more the better...keep posting everyone!!!!

Clay

By "haze" I mean that the image has some crisp details that are obscured as if they're shot through a fog. I'm re-attempting my initial design today, using the Radio Shack motor instead. If increasing the disc's rotation doesn't help, I'll assume it's the ground glass that's causing my problem.

Agus -- what kind of motor are you using to spin your GG?