Hi. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good shoulder support system for the XL1s. I have the ma100 (suuuuuucks) and whatever the one that comes with the camera is called (also suuuuuucks).

I find my back, as well as my shoulder and arm aching after about 10 or 15 minutes of handheld work, and it's especially bad if I'm not shooting straight ahead, at eye level (i.e. up or down). Anyone know anything?

Check out the articles on Chris's XL1 Watchdog. There are a few on camera supports that should suit your needs. Go to the Articles Menu then Camera Support

Yeah, I saw those. I was interested in the SP7 (I think that's what it's called) and then found out that the guy in Texas doesn't do 'em anymore, and that they're now sold by Varizoom for $500!

Yes, VariZoom sells them for $500 which is a couple hundred bucks *lower* than what the original maker was selling them for. VariZoom *dropped* the price.

If that's still too much, consider the VZ-LSP at VariZoom. If this stuff seems expensive, just remember you get what you pay for in this business... you spend the money only once but you use the tool for as long as you take care of it.

I've had a bit of trouble with my VZ-LSP lately. It creaks and pops...just like an old wooden ship, only the sound is metallic instead of wooden.

I've gone through repeatedly and oiled joints and retightened every nut and clamp...but it still creaks and pops loud enough to hear in the footage. Not sure what to do about it. I may just have to retire it.

Which model. John?

We must have crossed messages, Chris. I'd just gone back and edited my first post to include the model number...then your message came. Fast on the draw as always, I see.

Anyway...it's the VZ-LSP. I do have the abdomen brace attached, but that doesn't seem to be the source of the noise. As far as I can tell, it's the vertical piece that screws into the bottom of the camera and then attaches to the horizontal brace of the support. For some reaon, it appears to have been stressed enough to weaken it and cause it to groan the way it does. There are no visible cracks or bends, and I never dropped it or anything.

I wish the bracket piece came down in a U shape and clamped to both sides of the horizontal bar. Seems that would make it a lot more stable. I may just try to rig that up myself. The rest of the unit is fine...it'd be a shame not to use it.

Yes, that particular joint is indeed the most critical. Let me know if you rig something, I'd like to learn the details.

Well, has anyone used the shoulder support I was talking about? (Mediapro, or something)

Plenty of folks here are using it... just do a search on SP7, SP-7 or Media Pro. Hope this helps,

So it rocks the shoulder support world, then? I was going to buy a steaditracker, or something similar. I don't suppose the SP7 helps with stability, does it?

The SP7 / Media Pro *does* help with stability; with it *you* become the tripod. A Steadytracker is a different kind of tool. Shoulder supports are one thing and stabilizers are another. Research them both, elsewhere on the web and here as well, to determine which tool would better suit your needs. A stabilizer is going to be tough to hold very long without the extra expense of a vest with camera arm system, whereas a shoulder support can be used all day long with little if any extra fatigue. Hope this helps,

Ah, but now that's the trick, isn't it? Some days I may need to go shoulder mounted, whereas somedays I may need to do some kind of complex camera move where shoulder support wouldn't be much good.

By the way, how much would the aforementioned weight belt thingy be?

Short of going with something extreme like a Glidecam V-8 rig (approx. $2,900) your best bet is to select the substantially less expensive SP7 or similar shoulder mount and practice, practice, practice with it, particularly walking backwards. Keeping the camera relatively still during motion is an athletic skill even with a full inertial stabilizer. The lightness of the XL1s works makes this a bit more difficult than with a 12-15lb pro camera. But it can be done reasonably well.

Yeah, that SP7 sounds pretty cool. I need money though. Wanna give me some? I'm saving up for the wide angle lens.

What I do is work for it... you should try to establish exactly what you really need and only that, and then find some small extra video job to pay for it. When I was a kid I wanted a telescope, a serious 6" reflector, so I mowed lawns all summer to make the money to buy that mirror and then my dad and I built it. Then I was through mowing lawns! Same thing applies today, I just find some odd job for the camera outside of my regular pay-the-bills job, and that's what covers extra equipment expenses. I guess you could call it a form of creative financing.

I have made a very cheap and effective shoulder support for my XL1s... it attaches to the srew socket used for the tripod, and is constructed from Brushed aluminum and padded. Ti is very easy and cheap to construct but works like a charm, giving a stadicam feel if necessary... One is able to rest with hand off the camera... Email me at brin@xsinet.co.za, and I would be happy to email you pics.
regards
Brin

I picked up a shoulder support from Birns and Sawyer (http://www.birnsandsawyer.com) in L.A. that I like very much. It was about $400. I think the model name is the Image 2000. It's pretty comfortable and no "creaks" like I've heard about other shoulder supports.
I attached a Varizoom Stealthzoom onto the grip and ithe set-up has worked out REALLY well for me. BTW-I switched to slimmer mountain bike grips from the clumbsy foam things that come on it originally and it makes a difference.

I ordered from a guy named Jim there, they do online ordering as well:
http://www.birnsandsawyer.com/canon-xl1.asp


Ford Minton
SF CA
xmod@yahoo.com
--------------------------

Looks okay to me. Their prices seem a bit high. I noticed they offered the manual zoom lens for 1800 or so. . .I just ordered mine from the Hurd-recommended ZGC for 1405.

Yeah, in fact they have notoriously high prices. But their shoulder supports seemed pretty solid and the price for the support was about the same for other supports I looked into at the time.
BTW- The only other item I would recomend from them is the panasonic TFT monitor, it's pretty sharp. I have not seen it elsewhere for any cheaper than what they were/are selling it for.

Josh,


I'll step back a bit in the posts and ask;


You've used the XL1 standard shoulder support (SP-100) and the MA-100, but have you used the MA-200? Is it crap too?


Regards,



Erik

I was shooting this weekend and heard that you can lease the glidecam V8 system from them at about $120 a month, I was shooting a event for a friend and one of the people ther had a xl1s and saw my manual lens, they wanted to know how it was working.

We discussed the cam and they told me glidecam had a special deal, v-8 system leased at 0% int. it was costing him 120 a month for 2 years. then 1 dollar to buy at end of lease I checked glidecam its for real anyone who was going to buy one and put it on their credit card should check it out at the glidecam site

Michel

thinking about doing just that

I've had a Glidecam V-8 for a while and I am very happy with its performance. I tried several other units (Hollywood Lite and Steadicam) and found the Glidecam to be the best. Quality of construction and overall fit and finish is very good. The only drawbacks are it is hard to transport easily. Hard cases and soft cases just don't seem to work very well. The $120.00 a month lease could be and easy goal. I get 2 to 3 jobs a month just because I have the V-8. I bump my rates 50% for the use of the V-8 and nobody blinks when I quote them my rates. The V-8 can turn a ho-hum project in a pretty cool piece. You just have to sell the concept and work hard to produce a dramatic promo piece to show to clients.

Jeff

Michael:

The Glidecam deal is a real thing, I was chatting with one of their reps at the Cinegear show this weekend.

I always recommend that folks interested in a bodymount stabilizer find a way to try them out extensively before they purchase or get into a lease. Not everyone responds to them in a positive fashion--they can be more of a handful than they seem (so to speak!)

For ERikFilmCrew. . .I have the MA100, have not tried the 200. From what I've heard, it's bulkiness is a detriment, weighing down the camera , and I believe I heard that because it's relatively big, it's kind of loose (I guess it attaches the same way the MA100 does) which can cause problems with audio. Heard it from a guy at the station where I used to work, so if I'm wrong, no hate mail please.


For all the other guys. . .I remember hearing that it was difficult to use any of the cheaper better'n'steaicam devices (steaditracker, cheap glidecam models) because you really need the weight belt or body pack or whatever it's called, because it's just too exhausting to simply hold it for any reasonable length of time. Is this correct? I had a friend with a steadicam junior that said he wore a weight belt when using it. Is this feasible?

Hi again Josh...

Yes it is true, for cameras over four lbs a handheld stabilizer will be too tiring for most people to hold without an additional support system. The best involve a sprung arm and support vest to distribute the weight. There are some simpler systems that use wrist support and stiffening, but I have not heard much about these.

The most subtle and smooth results are obtained with a stabilizer that involves some sort of gimbal, and thus requires a light touch to achieve optimum results. When one is experiencing extreme fatigue from the support hand, it is very difficult to simultaneously exert such a touch in the other hand.

Okay. . . a few things: what's a sprung arm, what's a gimbal (is that the ball that lets you rotate the camera while it's on the device?) and is there anyway a moron with no engineering skill could rig something up from scratch

jtdonald-
RE: transporting the Glidecam vest and arm

I agree, getting a hard case to fit the gear is a challenge. I use a padded bag meant for a large speaker (event/PA monitor) from JVC called the EON. I ordered it from a local Audio place after seeing one at an event I was shooting. It fits the vest and arm well, the platform/sled needs to be broken down to fit though. With some extra foam inside and wrapped around sled you can keep things from getting jarred and/or moving around inside the bag an during transport.
Granted stuff will not be as safe as it would be in a hard case but this setup does work. Please note though, I keep batteries and monitor in a Pelican case for obvious reasons.
I'm looking into a SCUBA gear case I found on WWW that might be a better answer. It looks pretty costly though. Will post info if it seems worth while.

Josh-

I have been using the MA200 for awhile now, I don't mind the added weight. Also the low level hum in the audio I used to get from time to time from the MA100 is not happening with the 200. One thing though, the "MA100-like" connection to the cam itself is pretty wonky, wish Canon had readdressed that design aspect.

Well, like David Spade said in an obscure SNL skit that probably no one but me knows about, "I'm just telling you what I heard." As I am, as everyone tells me "just starting out," I haven't had a need for more than two XLR attachments at the same time (heck I've only used one so far), so I'll address the issue when the time comes.

Josh:

Check out: http://www.howstuffworks.com/steadicam.htm

This is a pretty cool rundown on the technology behind Steadicam--once you get through it, you'll be hip to things like gimbals and spring arms!

Many have built their own homemade stabilizers, there are quite a few sites on the net. I myself put something together back in the dark ages (early 80's). It was a great learning experience but it didn't work all that well. These days there are some pretty affordable versions available commercially, and if you don't have access to a machine shop and/or engineering background, it may not be worth the effort to try to make one. Such a device requires a tricky combination of lightweight construction, minimized friction and enough strengh to handle substantial torque--not all that easy!

Charles,
I have a loosely related question that I'm sure, with your occupation and background, you'll be able to answer. When viewing "The Making of ..." features on cable or DVD I often see camerapeople carrying what looks like "small" Panavision cameras on SteadiCam mounts. Approximately how much to those cameras weigh, fully loaded, and how much film do they typically have in the magazine?

Thanks.

Another question or two on that subject. When you see 35's on steadicams, do they usually have remote focus pullers working with them? Also do they normally have wireless video taps so the DP/director can view shot remotely?

Hi Ken:

The Panavision cameras that we fly on Steadicam have actually about the same size body as the studio versions, but they are stripped down as much as possible to save weight, plus we use smaller mags, matteboxes etc. The standard is the Panaflex Lightweight, and there is also the XL which can be converted into studio mode as needed. They weigh around 30 lbs with 400 ft mag and lens (the lenses can weigh anywhere between 4 lbs up to 15 lbs for the anamorphics, ugh!). This combined with the approximately 40 lbs of Steadicam makes for a 70 lb system. The 400 ft mag lasts for 4 minutes, which is why most of the really long Steadicam shots one sees in movies cap out around that time, although a few intrepids have muscled through with the 1000 mags which last 10 minutes but add another 12 lbs or so to the package!

Scooterbob:

Yes, we always use remote focus on 35mm shows, and most 16mm and video jobs also. You can't really reach up and yank the lens without making a bump in the shot, so it's the only way. The units will also allow for zoom and iris control, and will start and stop the camera as well. The best of them are so responsive, it's just like having your hand on the knob itself--but at a premium (I use the Preston system, which costs around $20K, but is pretty much bulletproof).

And yes, we pretty much rely on our video transmitters to allow others to see our work. Cables are a pain for Steadicam, both interfering with the operating itself and limiting mobility, so there are various forms of video transmitters that we favor. I use one that transmits on the TV bands so that various people around set can use little pocket TV's to keep track of what is going on, but there are also small microwave units available.

Right now there are some real growing pains with HD as far as Steadicam is concerned--there aren't any HD transmitters, and transmitting a downconverted NTSC signal back to the monitors is proving unpopular after they are used to seeing a beautiful HD image. Some of the cameras require three separate BNC cables, some only one...but it still sucks!

Well, I don't rememember the guy's screenname (Brin Krushner?) but he wrote on here saying that he built his own shoulder device, and emailed me some pics. Looks pretty good, and I don't see why (that doesn't mean anything) without a few modifications it couldn't become a ghetto stedicam. I have a monitor, and I figure add some weights in the appropriate places. . .no? Am I a moron?

Josh:

Depends what you mean by "ghetto Steadicam". At the most basic level, mounting the camera on a pole with weights on the bottom will give you a device that will simulate the Steadicam look, reducing the effects of footsteps in the photography. This is the concept behind the Steaditracker and similar devices. Attaching a monitor would only be relevant if your camera didn't have a flip-out LCD (such as an XL1--but note that making such a device with the XL1 could be very tiring to carry around).

When you start talking about getting into a gimbal-based system, like the Steadicam JR, smaller Glidecams and the like, the results are substantially more fluid and if carefully operated, can approach those of the big-ass rigs. But they are much more demanding to build at home, and the weight vs fatigue issues are still relevant.

Systems that use an arm and vest to transfer the weight will provide even more isolation and allow you to shoot comfortably for hours. But of course the tradeoff is substantially more engineering to put together.

Here's the thing: the results one gets with a "ghetto Steadicam" may well be less appealing visually than good handheld. Remember that the viewer doesn't care how you got it, only what ends up on screen--and if that means questionable composition and seasick-inducing moves that roll all over the place, you're probably better off sticking the camera on your shoulder. There are probably boatloads of stabilizers that have been built or bought that currently sit gathering dust in people's garages after a few failed adventures. But go for it! Let us know how it works out.

Here's a link you may find useful:

http://homebuiltstabilizers.just.nu/

Well. . .that just about took the wind out of my sails. I don't know if I'll be going for anything. I was told glidecam had made an arm brace and a vest-type dealie for their product. . .anyone know about this?

There are at least three Glidecam models that work with a vest and stabilizer arm. One of them is set up for DV camcorders like the XL1, I want to say it's the V8. Check it out at http://www.glidecam.com/v8.html

One of our community members, Casey Visco, is a Glidecam employee and maybe he can go into a little better detail. Plus you can always do the old search thing again, as we've had a few discussions here about Glidecam in the past. Hope this helps,

Ouch dude. . .don't say V8. . .I know that thing is like three thousand dollars.

Hi Josh,

The V-8 is what i use and I think it is ideal for the XL1. The full blown version with LCD and everything is usually on special for $2800.00 or so. You can get started for around $2300. I see them on ebay and they go for around $1500 to $1700 for the ones with a screen and all. You just have to be patient. I compared the V-8 to several other models and felt it no only offered the most bang for the buck, but was the best overall performer in its price range.

If you have any specific questions about it I would be happy to give my users perspective.

Jeff

Glidecam also has a classifieds page on it's site for used gear at:

http://www.glidecam-ops.net/classifieds.html

or

http://pub6.bravenet.com/classified/show.asp?usernum=501901332&cpv=1

Between that page and Ebay (maybe even Yahoo! Auctions) you should be able to find a V-8 setup for a reesonable price.

BTW- has anyone tried the Glidecam 4000 Pro with the body harness thing attached?

Jeff -- Glad to hear you've had success with the v8 rig! After a reasonable amount of dedicated practice with mine I was pulling off some *very* nice shots. Indeed the v8 is most often used with an XL1, but i've also flown GL1s and Panasonic AG456's (old s-vhs cam).

Regarding pricing, if you purchase all the necessary items a la carte you could pay around 4k for a full v8 rig (monitor, extra batteries, etc)...but we often do run specials on v8 packages, usually around the trade shows. These change often, so keep an eye on the Glidecam website.

Chris - At present there actually four models that work with a vest/arm system the V-8, V-16, V-20, and the Gold Series. For Mini DV you wouldnt need anything more than a V-8 or V-16.

c

With apologies for dragging up a thread that's celebrated its first birthday:I was interested in the SP7 (I think that's what it's called) and then found out that the guy in Texas doesn't do 'em anymore, and that they're now sold by VarizoomVariZoom sells them for $500 which is a couple hundred bucks *lower* than what the original maker was selling them for. VariZoom *dropped* the price.The article (http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article76.php) still gives Harold Greene's contact details. Perhaps it should be updated to state that the SP7/Mediapro is available from Varizoom?