There are PAL cams and there are NTSC cams. Are there SECAM cams? How about MESSECAM cams? Does Panasonic Professional make all these format types?

In general no, there are no production cameras for SECAM or MESSECAM. They are broadcast formats and PAL cameras are generally used for acquisition in those countries

Thank you Jeff Donald for clarifying this. I have another question. Which sell more, PAL or NTSC?

Jeff?

Most likely PAL cams.

Worldwide, PAL is the dominant format.

Thank you Jeff and Frank.

I do not mean to go off topic. I am a new boot afterall. I'm curious why we do not all go with PAL camcorders and PAL television. Is not PAL much better than NTSC? This would also eliminate the need to convert formats, and lower production costs.

The use of PAL or NTSC is more a product of nationalism (http://www.google.com/search?q=define:nationalism) than which technology is best. Within our lifetimes this barrier to communication will fall.

PAL, SECAM and MESECAM are based on a 50 cycle electrical system, with the exception of Brazil (which seems rather strange---Brazil's PAL system).

Brazil actually piggybacks an NTSC video signal over the PAL broadcast system. Thus, they use NTSC production equipment.

I wonder if PAL is dominant why do manufacterers end up charging us more for PAL equipment... weird. Econocmics of scale should work the aother way around. Is it just because of the slightly higher res? Does not make sense.

Isn't Brazil's PAL only 525 lines---like NTSC?

You mean there are different PAL formats - some you have to use a PAL camcorder while others require a NTSC camcorder? Shucks that sucks. Do any camcorders do both?

2 types of cams: PAL & NTSC. Many types of broadcast systems----don't think there is such a cam.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Isn't Brazil's PAL only 525 lines---like NTSC? -->>>

It's confusing but it goes like this. Brazil's TV system is 525lines/60Hz based.

The PAL-M color sytem is very much like the NTSC system, with the chroma information handled in such a way so as not to have so much interference with mountains, which produce ghosts. As the two main Brazilian cities (Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo) have a few mountains within, maybe that's the reason why this hybrid system was created.

In any case PAL-M is only used for broadcast. Professional recordings are all done in NTSC and home systems (VCR and DVD) are all NTSC. TVs are all dual system.

Hopefully we may see a universal recording system when we get to HD, but unfortunately digital broadcast already has three systems rolling: US, Europe and Japan. So here we go again.


Carlos

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez :
I wonder if PAL is dominant why do manufacterers end up charging us more for PAL equipment... weird. Econocmics of scale should work the aother way around. Is it just because of the slightly higher res? Does not make sense. -->>>

I don't have the figures here, but I very much doubt that the NTSC actual market (those that buy video cameras) is smaller than PAL's. In fact I'd say NTSC is probably much larger.

There are three very large consumer markets which are NTSC: USA, Japan, Canada and Mexico.

Europe and Russia have three different video systems, and are not handled as one market.

The rest of the world is mostly underdeveloped, so the markets are much smaller.

Scale economics apply really to NTSC based systems, which explains the lower prices.


Carlos

Well, PAL cams are actually used in Europe, Russia and the Middle East, as well as India etc etc. Korea also uses NTSC as well as other countries in the Americas---and Brazil, a country larger than Australia in both area and population.

Don't forget China. That's one heck of a LARGE market.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Well, PAL cams are actually used in Europe, Russia and the Middle East, as well as India etc etc. Korea also uses NTSC as well as other countries in the Americas---and Brazil, a country larger than Australia in both area and population.

Don't forget China. That's one heck of a LARGE market. -->>>

Just reinforcing my arguing that NTSC cameras are cheaper because their market is actually larger. I seriously doubt China is using PAL cameras, though I am not too sure what system is being used in Singapore and other Asia countries.

Brazil uses NTSC but is not a large market for cameras. They are very expensive here. Australia is a PAL country, but with a not too large population.

Scale economics has contributed to lowering prices in color TVs and VCRs, but cameras are still a luxury. Particularly those we use.


Carlos

Projected worldwide PAL DV sales units for 2003 and 2004 are 4.6 mil and 6.45 mil respectively. NTSC projected sales during the same period is only 4.4 mil and 5.3 mil. Why the sudden big growth in PAL? China is becoming a consumer nation. These figures are only for digital sales and come from the Magnetic Media Information Services.

I think it is generally acknowledged that analog PAL units also outnumber similar NTSC units. In part do the extremely low prices analog camcorders are sold for in Europe, China and other developing nations.

Just as a note, Canada has only 30+ million people and is not considered a major market.

Carlos, I can't say I agree with you on some of what you say. Just look at all the countries which use PAL/Secam here:

http://kropla.com/tv.htm

And some of these countries house the bulk of the world's population. I'd have to go with what Jeff wrote.

> Isn't Brazil's PAL only 525 lines---like NTSC?

Precisely. And it runs at 29.97 fps too. It's really just a 'PALish' NTSC. NTSC analog signal aired with PAL radio transmission technology (which the Brazillian authorities realized is better). I wonder why they did not go all the way and just use full PAL. Perhaps they thought it would be better to stick to NTSC and have cheaper production equipment. This was all in the state-owned TV days.

If I recall correctly, Bolivians have it the other way around: they use NTSC broadcast technology but PAL resolution. Go figure.

I think part of the reason was to maintain compatibility with their neighboring countries.

Right. Would it not then have been easier to use the *same* standard as neighboring countries? Sorry I don't want to start a war of any kind here and we are somewhat off-topic. It's just that I am curious about this sort of thing :)

Good question, and I don't have the definitive answer. Sorry.

The numbers Jeff mentions are projected sales, so they expect to get that. Until those things are effective, prices may stay as they are. They are most likely for basic equipment also, like TVs, VCRs and DVDs.

The "bulk of the world's population" is poor, as you probably know, and won't own a video camera in their whole life. Let me see the numbers on countries where they have a certain development and proper annual income and we can talk again. Numbers usually do not lie.

Countries with PAL/SECAM systems, like Russia or China, are not too much into sophisticated consumer goods.

In those countries, AC is most likely 220v/50Hz, which is very much related to how television got started. Color came later on, and they built from the 50Hz upward.

The reason for 220v, as you probably know, is being able to spend less in wiring. For instance: northern Brasil, which is poorer in resources, is 220v/60Hz; from the center down to south is 110v.

Jeff's comments, that "the extremely low prices analog camcorders are sold for in Europe, China and other developing nations" seem to be a contradiction to what we are saying: why PAL equiment is more expensive than NTSC. Which it is.

The chroma information in Brazilian PAL-M is locked on the TV receivers, which avoids generating image ghosts on TVs when tuning mountain reflected signals.

TV was never state owned in Brazil. It was always private. The only state channel is educational and never had any saying on TV policy, as far as I know.

The reason for picking PAL-M was political too, so as to not receive TV signals from Argentina, and viceversa. A military strategy and somewhat belligerant, from both sides in those times.

Of course that modern sattelite reception and cheaper electronics wiped all that away. No wonder sattelite antennas and internet are illegal or very controlled in countries that do not want any external influence on their people, like Cuba or China.



Carlos

Analog camcorders are being dumped around the world. The reason for most of the higher prices is importation taxes, fees, duty etc. PAL equipment does provide a superior quality image. But the circuitry and design to do so are more expensive than equivalent NTSC models. It's just a fact of life, there are more components in a PAL camera.

Carlos wrote:why PAL equiment is more expensive than NTSC. Which it is.PAL cams more expensive? Naaa, it depends from where the cams are bought. Locally, PAL cams are cheaper. Pana AU prices are usually cheaper than CA prices, when comparing similar models. Then there is our man, Yow, who can get great PAL prices from where he is (compared with CA and MEX prices---even better than PAL/EU prices). There we go.... :-)

> TV was never state owned in Brazil. It was always private.
> The only state channel is educational and never had any
> saying on TV policy, as far as I know.

Thank You Carlos for the clarification. Interesting piece of information. I had thought Brazil had followed a similar path as other countries in Latin America.

> PAL equipment does provide a superior quality image.
> But the circuitry and design to do so are more expensive
> than equivalent NTSC models.

Hmm. I don't think so, not in the digital world at least. It seems that many Sony DV camcorders are actually the same across systems but with the firmware set up to work in a certain standard. Hacks are available on the 'net that turn consumer NTSC cams into PAL and vice versa. And we all know Sony consumer and semipro cams are actually very similar.

It probably makes more sense and is less expensive to design a single piece of hardware that can run both systems then two different designs.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : It seems that many Sony DV camcorders are actually the same across systems but with the firmware set up to work in a certain standard. Hacks are available on the 'net that turn consumer NTSC cams into PAL and vice versa. And we all know Sony consumer and semipro cams are actually very similar.

It probably makes more sense and is less expensive to design a single piece of hardware that can run both systems then two different designs. -->>>

Does anyone know or has any information on where to get these hacks? A Google search got me nothing.

Most video cameras, when models are similar, share the same mechanics. It's where scale economics pays off. But CCDs and electronics are probably different.

What I was told that is that a PAL camera might be adapted to NTSC, but not the opposite. Apparently there would be missing pixels to fill the PAL frame coming from NTSC.

But it would be really interesting for PAL camera owners to be able to move to and back from NTSC.


Carlos

> Most video cameras, when models are similar,
> share the same mechanics. It's where scale economics
> pays off. But CCDs and electronics are probably different.

I don't think so. It would be more expensive to make different CCD chips for the different TV systems and digital photo cameras. It's less expensive to crop or scale the image electronically.

My camcorder has three different ways of using it's CCD array, in the case of 4:3 and 16:9 video, the image is cropped to the desired aspect ratio and then scaled down to DV resolution. When working as a photo camera, a larger area of the CCD is used. The CCD is 4:3 but the camera's electronics can probably not process the full amount of pixels in real time for video so a smaller 4:3 area is used. Since DV resolution is so much lower than the CCD's native resolution, the camera is said to have 'native' 16:9 performance despite the 4:3 aspect of it's CCD.

And let's not forget that DV in both PAL and NTSC uses non-square pixels. As far as I know CCD chips always have square pixels so there is always some scaling.

I have tried searching around for the hack I read about some time ago that allowed system toggling on some Sony consumer camcorder but the 'net is so full with hacks for DVD players that the information is harder to find. When I get back home I will check my bookmarks.