Hi folks. It's been a while since I've been to the DVInfo.net forums. Glad to be back with a new handle.

Okay, so I've been encountering a really frustrating artifacting problem with my XL1s, and I can't seem to figure it out. Here's the basic description:

1) They always seem to be white
2) They look like old-school ASCII characters (white squares)
3) They appear at random intervals

I use:

1) Canon XL1s w/ 16x manual
2) Panasonic 63 and 83 MQ tapes
3) Panasonic Head Cleaner

Normally, I just used the head cleaner as instructed (ever 50 hours or so). However, after this problem appeared, I use it 3-5 seconds at a time, usually between every new shoot I do (about 3-4 tapes per shoot).

It's bizarre - the artificating only occurs here and there, sometimes not at all, sometimes twice in thirty seconds. It's totally random. Very annoying, though, and it's ruining all my favorite takes.

The artifacting is usually no more than a frame in length.

I've digitized my footage using a Sony PC-9, a Sony DSR1800, and the XL1s itself. This problem seems to occur no matter what deck I use, which leads me to believe its happening in the recording process.

Here's a screenshot:

http://www.sundevilpictures.com/artifact.jpg

Here's a 5-second Quicktime of the problem (1.5mb):

Click here (http://www.sundevilpictures.com/artifact.mov)

Please let me know if you have any advice, input, or a solution. Thanks!!

Here's the same screenshot with highlights so it's easier to see:

http://www.sundevilpictures.com/artifact2.jpg

Gosh, Jonathan, isn't that much head cleaner use going to be too hard on the heads?

Regardless of how long you've had the camera, maybe you should send it to Irvine for servicing and tell them the problem. I've had two XL1s's for a couple of years now, and had a problem kind of like that with one of them, plus minor problems on both. I've been REALLY happy with the service center; last month they even replaced some assemblies on one camera and didn't charge any more than a regular service!

It's well worth the 4-6 weeks (for me it's usually four) without your camera.

It's a bit of a puzzler. I've not seen this problem before.

It's hard to see in your QT file but certainly easy to see in your jpg. What struck me while looking at the jpg was that these artifacts seem to occur at boundaries in contrast. The glare from the glasses frames, the edge of the chin and the edge between the dark cap and the bright forehead. To me, as a non-technician, this suggests some sort of DV compression glitch rather than a problem with your heads. (In my experience head alignment problems will tend to affect the entire image, not just isolated spots.) These are the areas where I would expect to find oddities with respect to over-sharpening (which does not appear to be the case here).

Lorinda is probably right; Canon Service is probably your only practical path on this one. I definitely wouldn't scrub those heads any further.

Good luck with this and let us know how this turns out.

I do not have a XL1 but does it have a reset button on it like my Sony's? I have occationally had problems with my DHR1000 Sony DV deck and SOny PC10 camcorder. Solved them by pressing the master reset button resetting whatever it resets!!!!!!!!!.


Ron Evans

Thanks much for the replys.

I'm hesitant to go to Canon, simply because of the inherent cost of factory repairs, but perhaps it's my only choice. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

Ron - could you elaborate a bit? Are you saying you had the same artifacting as seen in my screenshots and solved the issue by reseting the camera options back to their default settings?

I can't be certain the artifacts were exactly like yours but yes I have got rid of artifacts on both camcorder and deck by pressing the reset button and then resetting all the parameters back to my own. For the most part this of course is reseting the clock etc. Again I am not sure about the XL1 but the Sony's have a small reset button on them, it is not a reset in the menus that I am talking about, but a small physical button that needs a small pin or pen tip to press.

Ron

There is no such mechanism in the XL1s. You may, however, be able to approximate it by removing the main battery and the back-up (watch-style) battery overnight. This may have the effect of resetting all of the camera's tweaks to their factory defaults.

But I don't think this will solve the problem at hand.

It would be worth a shot. I doubt those are DV compression
errors. Usually (macroblock) errors look quite different. Most of
us have probably seen them in mpeg files sometime.

My guess would be that some electronic component is working
wonky from time to time. Looks like some interference or illegal
quantizing that is going on.

I would try to eliminate the problem by capturing directly to
your PC (without tape) and capturing with different cables &
computers as well.

Could in theory be a faulty cable or interference on your firewire
port as well, although that would probably result in dropped
frames. Not sure.

If I'm not mistaken, you were filming from the roof of PSA, and that's SGM in the background.

(fuzzy inside)

R.K.S.,

Once more, spelled out, please? :)

Thanks.

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : If I'm not mistaken, you were filming from the roof of PSA, and that's SGM in the background.

(fuzzy inside) -->>>


:)

Lorinda - spelled out ;) (http://www.usc.edu)

Jonathan,

Good thing you added the "wink;" otherwise, I would have been offended. Or maybe I just don't get it/managed to misplace my sense of humor.

For the record, I'd like to tell you that some of us either can't afford to, or feel a little too old to be enrolling in film school. One of the things I've liked about this forum is the prevailing courtesy shown by the big guys helping out the little ones.

If the pros on this forum always steered me to film school, I would have given up.

On the other hand, responses like yours certainly help me remember my place, so thanks for that.

Good luck figuring out your problem.

Um, I didn't mean any offense by that.

Robert correctly spotted Parking Structure A (PSA) at the SC campus. In your last post you asked him to spell out PSA, if I'm not mistaken. I thought rather than literally spell out the name, I'd just tell you what he meant.

Didn't mean to take a pompous dig at you or anything.


To Ken and Rob:

Thanks!

Jonathan, if this block distortion is persistent and none of the usual remedies (resetting the camera, head cleaning, etc.) ameliorate the problem, there's no subsitute for having your camera serviced by Canon. If your camera is under warranty, there won't be any cost; if not, I'm willing to bet the insured shipping to Canon will be more expensive than the actual repair.

Lorinda, the lower left-hand corner (http://www.usc.edu/assets/maps/upc_map.gif) is the region of interest. Seely G. Mudd, the tower in the background of Jonathan's shot, isn't part of the film school, but largely houses the chemistry department. I spent many a long nap, I mean OChem lecture there. As for being too old/broke to go back to school, should that be your heart's dream... One of my neighbors, who was pursuing an undergraduate film degree, was in his late thirties. (He was the only one of us who'd actually seen STAR WARS the day it opened.) Also, USC gives out more tuition aid than any other school.

Jonathan,

It looks like I owe you a huge apology. I thought Robert was referring to some technical terms in his post !--not an actual place, so the last thing I looked for in that link is a picture. Now that I read his post again, it finally makes sense. I'm sorry; I should have asked you to clarify instead of jumping to a conclusion.


Robert,

Thanks for the encouragement, though now that I'm in my mid-forties school just doesn't seem feasible. Plus, if I can misjudge terms/initials like I did in this thread, well, maybe the old girl needs to "stay a little closer to the porch." Dreams will always be there, but reality is fun too!

...and sorry to get so off-topic!

I have the same issue on my XL1-S camera, but I can see it only when I capture my video (made with xl1-s) using another miniDV player (I used Panasonic and now JVC HR-DV S3).
If I capture using XL1-S I don't see that issue so clear, but I can clearly hear an audio noise in the same place where I would have that squares.
If I apply some effects on it (for instance color correction) these blocks became white.
I have it randomly along all tape, and they are long 1, max 2 frames.
I will bring my camera to Canon Service this week.

Franco - did you ever take your camera into Canon? If so, what did they say?

Jonathan,
I get the same type of artifacts also...and it never happens when I capture using the XL1S...just when I use my JVC deck. I have one of my cameras at Canon right now...hopefully I will hear from them early next week

<<<-- Originally posted by Lorinda Norton : Gosh, Jonathan, isn't that much head cleaner use going to be too hard on the heads?

Regardless of how long you've had the camera, maybe you should send it to Irvine for servicing and tell them the problem. I've had two XL1s's for a couple of years now, and had a problem kind of like that with one of them, plus minor problems on both. I've been REALLY happy with the service center; last month they even replaced some assemblies on one camera and didn't charge any more than a regular service!

It's well worth the 4-6 weeks (for me it's usually four) without your camera. -->>>

Yikes..four weeks for the Irvine center....sheesh...must be that laid back california lifestyle...the NJ center turns them in 5 business days or less

Hehe, well thankfully I live near the Irvine center.

Mark - how much is the regular service? $400?

Jonathan, per chance are you capturing the footage to the computer with a JVC Deck?

Sorry I just saw Mark's post on the same thing.
JVC does have problems with this. They are going to apply some service bulletins and a parts upgrade of some kind to mine. I only hope it fixes the problem.

No, I don't own anything JVC.

I've been capturing on my Sony PC-9, a DSR-1500, and my XL1s. It seems to happen no matter what deck I use, though it is very intermittant and doesn't happen that often.

For Jonathan...regualr service is $250...if your an XL1 club member , it is 95


For John,
Do you know what JVC deck? I'm using the SR-VS30U

Jonathan,
I brought my camera at canon service yesterday and they will say me something next week.
I captured my last video using XL1-S and I had those blocks clearly.
I never had them so clear using XL1-s (only with JVC deck I had), I cleaned heads twice but with no good results.
Next week I will say you what Canon service said.
Franco

I also have the SR-VS30U deck.
JVC was not very forthcoming on the fact there were tech bulletins or updates/upgrades on my deck. All the tech rep said was I need to send it in for service. He never let on that anything I had said was even vaguely familiar. Finally I asked him point blank if he had ever heard of this problem. He said yes they get blamed for it all the time. This issue is on many forums and is wide spread with JVC, not just the decks. One guy who said he worked in the JVC service center in Italy and claimed it had something to do with capacitors. The service rep I spoke with did not log my call or give a reference number, but said to detail the problem, include a tape showing the problem and specifically ask for all teck bulletins and updates to be applied to the unit.

John,
What service center have you been dealing with? To think I've been blaming this intermittent problem on my cam....

You mention forums discussing this problem...where may I find them.?

I guess I need to contact them also and try to get my deck resolved....bummer.....

Matrox RT.X100 Xtreme User forums » Hardware » General Troubleshooting » JVC Firmware Updates?

The url is http://forum.matrox.com

I spoke with the Professional Field Rep not the serivce Center. I will call the Service Centers in my area Monday to find the one with the shortest current turn-around. You can find the service centers for your product and area on the JVC site. Just do a Google search for JVC USA.

I got this from a JVC rep...
" The problem Mr. Foley has (he sent a still frame to show it) is a very specific problem that few have.

We have taken the decks to other NLE systems and they work fine.

We have exchanged decks and the new decks show the same errors when hooked to the customer's NLE.

These errors are different from the common DV errors or as some call it pixelization. Those errors have several causes.

What Mr. Foley is seeing seems to relate to the grounding environment between the deck and the particular computer. This is why so few people have this problem.

We have a modification that can improve it but not eliminate it since the computer itself is likely related somehow to the problem.

The symptoms are twofold:
1. the errors are misshaped data blocks mostly occuring on edges in the image and are usually fo only one or two frames and usually only every couple minutes or so.
2. they occur when 1394 is connected. In otherwords, if you play a tape with the 1394 disconnected and watch carefully you will not see the errors, but when you connect the 1394 and play the same tape, if you watch very carefully you will see the errors go by even if you are just playing back and not digitizing.

We are continuing to try to solve this but it is rather rare and hard to pin down."

Until I can figure out exactly what I need to do, I will use another deck to capture footage.....

Being a 1394 issue, I can somewhat understand. But as a brand-specific issue, I don't.

Those pics and video I posted on the first page? Those were captured using my XL1s as the deck!

Jonathan,
Did you have the XL1s on the A/C adapter or battery?

I'm pretty sure it was the adapter.

I take it that is what is meant by "grounding environment"?

Yes...try capturing without the AC adapter...I'm almost willing to bet that the mosaic artifacts will go away....I took a JVC camera (725U) and captured with the AC adapter and got the mosaics....captured the same segment with the camera on battery power....and guess what....:-)

Let me know what you get.....
Mark

I taken my XL1-S from canon service today .
about mosaic artifacts they said me they changed drum head (I don't know if this is the right name in english).
I have not tried it yet so I don't know if they solved that issue.
they did also other things, I had some other tipical XL1-S issues (autofocus and zoom noise), they calibrated both (they did back focus calibration for the first one) and now it seems it goes better then before.