Just checked my digitized footage in FCP from my XL1s and I have the black lines at the bottom as well.

Yes indeed they will all have it, without exception. It's a "feature" of the Panasonic CCD's used in the XL1S and other camcorder models. Since the CCD block is outside of their manufacturing process, Canon is most likely going to advise cropping down to the action safe area in post so that it shows only the equivalent field of view that the videographer had in the viewfinder when they composed the shot.

Yeah I can imagine them saying that, but I'd consider that a rather sad response. The viewfinder only has 88% coverage, so that's a lot of area to lose. I guess the issue is really only a problem with internet style footage right? If you're going to film, you will cut the bottom probably anyway to get the right aspect ratio, and if you're filming for TV then the under(over?)scan will hide the line anyway.

Chris,

Surely you jest. Cropping all the way to the action safe area? That's a hell of a lot of cropping! Besides, it wouldn't be cropping but blowing up the frame. We've found that a 2% blowup is the minimum necessary to get rid of the lines. But why have to do that at all? There IS a slight degrading of the image. I do hope Canon doesn't pass the buck on this one. Do Panasonic cameras exhibit the same problem? If so, why not just switch over to Sony chips? They certainly don't have the problem.

Yes, now I'm the one who's joking.

I agree 100% with you Ozzie, cropping in post is not a solution for this problem.

Perhaps I should clarify... I *have a feeling* that they'll suggest cropping only for delivery mediums which aren't video, such as the web, CD-ROM, etc. In other words, if an NTSC monitor is involved, no need to bother since it's beyond the action safe area. But if a computer monitor is involved, then cropping is neccessary. And *I'm* not advocating this; I'm just saying that I'll bet this will be the official corporate response. This isn't over yet.

Chris, I doubt this is due to the Panasonic CCD block... Why? Well
first off all if this was true they really did a poor job. Why would
anyone manufacture CCD blocks with pixels that are always black
or not working? That just makes no sense to me. I think it is in
the electronics behind the CCD... or in the firmware (probably
not). If you want to fix this I think components need to be
replaced (and not the CCD chips)

Chris wrote:

>I *have a feeling* that they'll suggest cropping only
>for delivery mediums which aren't video, such as the
>web, CD-ROM

Maybe. But, I burn DVDs of my material. When played on a tv, you can't see the black bar at the bottom. When you play the same DVD on a computer, you can see the bar. The only delivery medium that's "tv only" these days is tape.

Although it's an issue most circumstances (TV projection etc) won't be so bad because of the overscan, but where I see it being a pain is with anamorphic lenses/adapters. Seeing as that stretches a 16:9 image to use the full 4:3 area, then when comes time to transfer to film you'll have the black lines.

Am I correct in my thinking here?

Cheers
Aaron

Aaron,

Your thinking is correct. In fact, I'm not even sure why this discussion rages on and on. This "feature" is nothing but a BIG problem. If this problem existed in any professional grade camera, it would be sent back to the manufacturer for immediate fixing or replacement, no questions asked, only apologies.

I've experinced similar problems with Sony and Ikegami cameras. There has never been a problem fixing them. For Canon to think that because this is a "prosumer" camera they can term this a "feature" is absurd. No professional will accept this "feature". No amateur should either.

If every "prosumer" camera exhibited this "feature" I would just think twice before spending $4k on a camera. But the fact that Canon is the only one is enough for the manufacturer to get its tail in gear and do somehting about it rather than waste consumer time with futile phone calls that only yield silly explanations.

One more tid-bit of information. My next door neighbor is a colorist for a big New York post house. Although his main work centers around film to tape transfers, he's also doing quite a bit of work color-correcting with HD, DVCAM, DVPro, and MiniDV. He's seen this problem only once - on B roll material shot with an XL-1. That was enough to drive his client through the roof. After all color-correcting time is not cheap. It's enough to have thiven THIS client through the roof also since it has added days due to having to blow up by 102% every shot used in the final edit. My two XL-1 cameras have now cost me close to $3k more - all spent in correcting this "feature".

Why are these tiny black lines a problem if you transfer to film
(Ozzie)? If I understand it correctly these will get cropped
anyway (or I'm missing something here). I saw that on of my
professional hollywood movies on a DVD had a couple of black
lines too on the bottom. Didn't really bother me.

Rob, but anamorphic lenses will be different. Footage will fill the entire region and not be cropped (It's squeezed into the 4:3 area) and so the black bars will appear. Then you'll have to crop and stretch, or just crop and "forget"

Let's hope Chris Hurd can get something out of Canon. I think I might try some phone calls to see where I get.

Rob,

You misunderstood me. My neighbor is a colorist whose work is mainly film-to-tape transfers. No problem there. Lately an increasing amount of his work has been color correcting tape-to-tape. Although most of this work has been HD to HD, DigiBeta and BetaSP, a significant volume of work coming into the shop has been mastered on small digital formats (MiniDV, DVCAM, and DVPro). These are also tape-to-tape transfers, usually DV to BetaSP or DigiBeta.

The problem is that, regardless of the source of the problem (what I've been calling "wide blanking" for lack of a better term,) it is not up to broadcast technical specs.

Look at it this way - if there were no strict standards defining the exact aspect ratio of the frame, you would be seeing the aspect ratio change from shot to shot with each edit. This may not be a huge problem with most TV sets (although SMPTE has set the standard for NTSC and broadcasters are bound to make sure the aspect ratio is maintained - a cost that is passed down to the producer (I'm sure the same is true of PAL)), it does become a problem when we see the full frame as in QuickTime movies and any picture-in-picture effect.

The production we are currently completing will be initially released as QT without any frame. Therefore any lines around the edge of the frame will be very intrusive, even more so than if the QT frame were kept. Imagine we have a shot of person against a white background and this frame is superimposed onto a computer white screen. In this instance, any black lines around the frame would be very distracting. With this particular job, the client was the first one to strongly object to these lines. Fortunately we had a relatively cheap way to fix it but not without a small amount of image softening. Even blowing up the image by 2% yields a perceptible loss of sharpness.

Gettiing back to your message - if your DVD was showing a constant black line at the bottom (or anywhere for that matter) then it was not a camera induced problem but either a codec issue or an error introduced during the transfer. It's only when the aspect ratio is non-standard at the camera end, that this becomes a huge pain in the rear.

For all of those considering buying the XL1s! Please know that this camera was not designed properly to display 720 x 480 correctly. So if thats what you need, dont buy this camera. If you DO want a camera that displays 720 x 480 buy a Sony. Until Canon corrects this problem, I'd stick to buying a Sony. I wish I knew about this problem before investions so much money into it.

Does that mean Full Frontal will have the black bar too when its released since its shot with the XL1s ?

Michael, no. Steven shot it with the 16:9 guides and he is going to crop it to that aspect ratio, so the bottom and top of the footage will be removed and so will those bars.

In most circumstances the black bars wouldn't be a problem I think because when shown on TV's they are outside the visible area. When digitised and played as coputer .avi's etc then you will see it if you don't crop, so that's a problem. If you do movie stuff in 16:9 as in Full Frontal it won't matter either. If you use an anamorphic lens though you I think you would see the problem (haven't had anyone able to confirm it though) because it squishes the 16:9 to fill the entire area.

So he's shooting in 4:3 mode, with 16:9 guide rite?

I am actually planning to shoot a project using the 16:9 anamorphic adapter on the XL1s coz I am planning to transfer them to 35mm. But since this will include the black bars in it, I think I'll have to exclude them.

Has anyone done a transfer to 35mm using the XL1s? How's the result like?
And what's the best way to do this to overcome the black bar problem without adversely affecting the output quality?
Thanks for replying.

I hate to sound like a dummie, but I've got some questions that I hope someone can answer:

The black bars, do they show up in the viewfinder?

Also, these black bars, do they show up in a tape transfer to beta? It sounds like they show up if your editing on a PC platform like Avid and Premire and Final Cut.

I am about to purchase a XL1s next week, (tuesday as a matter of fact) and now Im having doubts. I plan on hsooting local commercials and short films and this flaw has be second guessing. I cant imagine buying a camera that is going to show a black bar on all of my footage. Whats the point of purchasing a XL1s then?

I'll reiterate, I'm no expert, and don't even have an XL1s, but they won't show on the viewfinder because the viewfinder doesn't show the whole frame anyway (About 88% coverage according to Canon's specs)

well that answers one question.

Now if someone can tell me if you see the footage if you transfer to Betasp tape or if it only shows up on the camera stills

I'm quite sure the'll show up on transfer to beta.
The problem is probably created before the video is recorded to tape.

Im a bit shocked, why do you guys even own this camera if the image is flawed with a black bar on the bottom of the picture? I mean, how can you do any kind of work whether it be a commercial or a short film or anything that requires somone to look at your footage?

Damn, and I was a few days from getting a XL1s, guess I'd better do some rethinking. I'd hate to crop the bars out of my footage in post for all of that.

Personally, I hate the black bar at the bottom in post, it bugs me more than anything. I just picked up a PD-150 and the 720x480 image in After Effects is clean edge to edge, top to bottom. However, I have shot several commercials for local television with my XL1s and the black bar at the bottom has never been an issue for me. I can only see the bar in an After Effects composition or if I set my NTSC monitor to underscan but once it's turned off, it can't be seen.

Donbarzini or Chris or anyone who has contributed to this thread:

Ok, now Im confused.

Do you see the black bar on your footage or is it unnoticeable to the untrained eye?

As noted many, many times in this thread...

You will not see the lines on an NTSC monitor or other device that underscans. You -will- see it on full-frame digital playback.

Lets all understand one thing here. I assumed miniDV is came about so that we can digitally edit stuff. So we can open the doors of NLE. Ok, now that we got that straight. Using any other camera besides the XL1s you dont get bars at the bottom of the TRUE FULL FRAME of 720x480. What does this mean? Well a normal NSTC monitor or TV in the USA does not show the whole frame. It actually chops it out. But if you do any type of streaming web work or DVD format of 720X480 you will definately see the bars from your computer, because it will display the full frame. If you capture stills you'll see the bars because the computer displays full frame. What I dont understand is that if miniDV is a format so we can digitally edit movies, why does Canon design a flawed camera? Why dont they just correct the problem rather than saying its not a problem?

For the people that do not understand the problem: there is a few
pixels high black line at the bottom of the frame. This is not a
problem when:

- Your output is for TV use only
- You crop your output (to add black bars for example, as I do)
to make it widescreen

You might not have a problem:

- if you do not care about a two - four pixel high black line. I know
I don't personally. If I download a quicktime movie and there is
a little black line at the bottom I'd probably not even notice it
(especially not if I'm playing it full screen)
- if you go DVD. Although these might be played on a computer
too, they 99% of the time are played full screen. You won't notice
the black bar because it will blend in the with the tiny little black
line that is already surrounding your monitor/lcd
- picture in picture effects. But since these will be resized and
probably cropped you might nog have a problem. Besides, you
might be adding a little border to seperate the image from the
background one

When you do have a problem:

well... this seems to be a personal thing. I'm not bothered by
it personally. But then again, it should be fixed anyway because
it just should not be there. Maybe someone should post a full
resolution jpg/bmp file that shows the defect cleary (white wall
footage??) so that all who are in doubt of getting this camera
can see for themselves first hand.

I hope I haven't stepped on any toes here, that is not my
intention! This is just solely my opinion and what I think about
the problem and possible solutions.

Thank you.

Great idea about posting the pic with the flaw Rob, thanks for clearing things up for all of us dullards out there!

I think someone posted a still image with the bar, but what would be better is if someone shot some footage and the put it in quicktime or realplayer and posted it on here.

just an idea

My XL1s also has the black bar at the bottom. I was wondering, has anyone sent their camera to Canon and had it come back sans black bar? No sense taking the camera out of service for weeks just to have it returned with the problem remaining. From what I read in this thread, it would seem the black bar is just a fact of life. If I had known, I'd never have purchased the camera.

Ron,
I've not seen anyone remark that this is something that Canon service has fixed for them. In fact, just the contrary. It looks as if Canon considers this acceptable and within the camera's design specification. In my opinion, someone made the assumption that "prosumers" would either never notice this flaw or would never cause trouble if they did notice it.

Many of us are disappointed. Personally, I love many aspects of the camera's design. But I'll be damned if I'll buy another Canon video camera if they continue to stonewall this issue. (Of course, since I already have 6 Canon probably couldn't care less <g>.)

I have put up some footage from my camera. Picture in jpeg
and bitmap format and a the same footage in a 2 second
PAL dv movie (was only allowed to upload 5 mb per file).

http://www.geocities.com/robvisuar/dv.htm

While I certainly agree that Canon should fix this problem, I must say that in the whole sceme of things it is quite insignificant. No layperson is going to look at the very bottom of the screen. Its well below title safety so it can be used for professional work and you'd never see it when transferring to film. Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection.

I'm forced to agree with Chris Ward (by the way Chris are you going to ShowBiz Expo in L.A. next weekend).

Long story short: as outlined above: this thing is *not* a problem if you're doing NTSC or PAL video. You'll never see it on a TV or video monitor; the black bar is at the edge of the frame and far outside the safe area.

It definitely *is* an issue if you're doing video for the web or CD. It *can* be seen at the edge of the frame on a computer monitor. You'll have to crop and re-size if you want to get rid of it.

The XL1S is not the only camcorder to exhibit this, nor is Canon the only manufacturer who has camcorders which exhibit this. And it is a product of the Panasonic CCD's used in these camcorders.

Most likely, Canon will position itself with the "this is not a bug, it's a feature" stance, as it is not something which can be altered by the Service Dept.

Please do not think I'm "apologizing" for Canon. I am not. I'm just telling you realistically what to expect. Hopefully I'll have something solid to relate back after ShowBiz Expo next weekend (June 1-3). That's the next time I get to see the guys from Canon USA. Hope this helps,

Ummm, so Chris.

If I shoot and take my footage from the camera to Avid, and make a Beta copy as well as a vhs copy, then you wont be able to see the flaw on the final product?

Correct.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Ward : While I certainly agree that Canon should fix this problem, I must say that in the whole sceme of things it is quite insignificant. No layperson is going to look at the very bottom of the screen. Its well below title safety so it can be used for professional work and you'd never see it when transferring to film. Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection. -->>>

Huh?! No, no, no, Chris. Certainly, it's true that these lines will not appear on a tv screening. But the streaming market is a big one for Canon and it's direct competitors; perhaps the biggest market in this class of camera. To that end, these lines certainly can be a significant factor during compression since they present the compressor with a static band of flat color.

"Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection. " I'll just bet that you didn't copy that text from a footnote on one of Canon's advertisements. So a Sony DSR-500 is "perfection", eh? Well, we wouldn't have to go that far to escape this little problem. We'd only have to move to the XL1s' closest competitor, the Sony DSR-PD150.

Chris, this may not be a significant problem for -you- or for -me-. But it -is- a significant problem for many current and prospective buyers of Canon's top-of-the-line video camera. Furthermore, it's a problem endemic to Canon's 3-chip cameras (my GL1's footage looks like I shot it from a prison cell, with thick vertical bars on both sides) and one that they've taken a bet on.

There is a small army of eager beaver trade and consumer electronics journalists out there just starving for their next 1,000 word payday. It's probably time to give them a whiff of this meat.

I still don't see this as a serious problem. Ken, I think you're over-reacting to what is basically a minor flaw in an otherwise outstanding consumer camcorder. As for the pd-150, I've used it professionally with decent results, but I like the picture of the XL-1(s) much better. However, neither unit is in the same league as a true professional camera like the Sony dsr-500/570. Of course, that would cost four to five times as much... BTW - I've also used the GL-1 with very good results: Never saw any "prison bars".

Now, as for the consumer electronic journalists, I happen to be one myself and I could care less about this "meat".

Chris,

I, too, like my XL1, my XL1s and even my GL1. I don't regret buying them. For my current purposes they serve me well. But with respect to this design/manufacturing flaw I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree as gentlemen on this subject.

What publication(s) do you write for, Chris?

Fair enough. I write for Videography magazine. In fact, you can read my article about using a bodyjib in their May issue, and I'll have a hands-on article about the XL1s (with the manual servo lens) some time this summer.

Ahh! I thought your name seemed familiar. Indeed, I am a subscriber to Videography (just received a new issue today, in fact). In fact, I very much like the magazine, Chris. Good to see you here.


Best Regards,

Chris Ward's documentary "Outwitting Hitler," shot with an XL1, GL1 and PD150, ran nationwide on Showtime last year.

I didn't think I'd be looking for answers like this so soon after spending so much on a camera that I thought would be near perfect in its class. Oh well, I sure have them now!

Just for the record, I'm using a PAL XL1S and I use a Mac for capture and edit and yes, I too have the black bar problem at the bottom of the frame. It's not as bad as some of the frame grabs I've seen posted - just a 1 pixel-high bar extending halfway from the right to the middle of the frame. This then joins to a 1 pixel-high pale bar extending from the middle to the left frame edge. Same style as you other guys are getting, but less of it.

It would appear that the fault has aspects of physical mis-alignment as it appears, but slightly further down the scanning sequence.

Naturally, I'm well disappointed. I had hoped that it was a fault with my particular camera that could be repaired or exchanged under warranty with no further hassle, but if they're all the same, then I've just wasted a lot of money.

I wish I'd bought the JVC GY-DV500E I was also considering prior to purchasing the XL1S.

Anyone wanting me to sign a petition to Canon, count me in!

Matt... I have exactly the same thing. Perhaps it is a PAL
thing that is different? Check the url I posted a couple of
posts earlier.

I do agree with Chris Hurd, I still do not see a real problem. Even
for use in PIP, you would resize this anyway. A little crop wouldn't
hurt here at all (since your gonna resize anyway). Perhaps the
people who having a real-world problem with this put up some
footage or screens grabs identifying exactly what they have a
problem with?

I checked the URL and your fault (for that is what it is) is the same as mine. For comparison, take a look at

http://www.mattmcardle.co.uk/canon_xl1s

and see for yourself. There's a few seconds of movie (Quicktime) up there too, if you have the patience to view it. You'll see those damn lines flicker and dance!

I don't entirely agree with you and Chris Hurd about it not being a problem. OK, for standard TV you aren't going to see them, and PIP-ing you are bound to crop, but I'm really with the multimedia guys on this one. That flickering baseline is hugely noticeable, especially viewed full screen on a monitor which people are BOUND to want to do if they have an option.

That means a post-production re-size and crop, no getting away from it and that costs time and money, as Ozzie has graphically demonstrated in this thread.

This is TOTALLY unacceptable and very unprofessional of Canon to ignore the issue, whatever spin 'apologists' and Canon hardcore fans like to put on it.

I think that Canon have misled us all on this one and they should sort it out.

Now were talking! I have been saying from the beginning of this
thread that those flickering lines are much more of a problem
to me then the black little lines! No-one seemed to acknowledge
or care back earlier. Glad I am not the only one to have this
problem. Luckely for me the output is letterboxed anyway so it
doesn't pose too much trouble at the moment, but who knows
in the future. This is one thing I would like to get fixed indeed!

I'll check your footage out!

My XL1S doesn't exhibit flicker. But wow, the flicker noxiously salient on that Quicktime.

Another thing I noticed about the Quicktime: the image not only has a black border along the bottom, but also has thin black borders on the left and right a la the original XL1. What's the deal?

Robert... my XL1s has both these symptoms too (check my url
I posted earlier)... It looks like the flickering and the bars on
the side are PAL issues only??? Perhaps some NTSC user could
put up a page similiar as to mine and matt's?

I just got off the phone with my sales rep. When he asked me to measure my "black line" problem I found that in interleave mode I had 3 solid black lines plus one gray line. In frame mode, it was 3 solid black plus two gray lines. He told me that he never heard of anyone with more than a single gray line at the bottom of the frame. Is it just me? Just wondering how many lines other XL1s owners were seeing.

My second thoughts are I wish I didnt buy the XL1s.

If I knew this was a problem to begin with I would never have purchased it. I definately would have bought a *Professional* Camera.

CANON FIX THIS PROBLEM!

Chris, Perhaps you should just put a stick about this nice little "Feature" Canon has so that people know right off the bat? Perhaps this will get Canon to aleast do something.

At the rate this thread is going, there's no need to stick it to the top. It's always there anyway.