Hello all,

I went to the Video Educator's conference up here in Mass today. Ken Freed was there and gave a few presentations - one specifically on the JVC HD10U.

He said, "Apple has the files and it probably won't be until Spring that they support it." The "files" must mean the docs from JVC needed to write software.

Anyway, he wasn't to helpful regarding the Apple issue of support. He said, "It was no secret when this camera came out it didn't have Mac support." End of story - he tried to ignore me after that because he knew I wasn't happy with the staunch answer. (which, i understand its not his fault or anyone's for that matter)

He was pushing teachers towards HD and that's interesting. If teachers move to HD in High Schools and College's in the next 3 years...broadcasters and cable companies will have tons of *new* content creators out there in 2007 when the FCC forces everyone to switch. The JVC seems to be ahead of the ball with who their target market is...it's not today's users it's 2006-2007 and after. Specifically, a younger generation who hasn't even picked up a camera yet...or is just getting introduced.

That's my 2 cents for today.

Chris

Freed hasn't even called me back, so thanks for that.

heath

Ken is a busy man. That guy has a very full plate these days.

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : He said, "Apple has the files and it probably won't be until Spring that they support it."

That's what I've been saying since day 1. Apple will support, but not until they can integrate it fully into QT and FCP 5. It takes a year for ANY big company to make these kind of changes.

This opening gives Heuris the space to ask $5000 to do what you can do with my $100 package. Maybe I should raise the price to $1000.

Don't raise it to $1000. You'll see sales drop. For $1000, I can guy a cheap PC 2 ghz and Premiere.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Don't raise it to $1000. You'll see sales drop. For $1000, I can guy a cheap PC 2 ghz and Premiere.
heath -->>>

A cheap PC won't work. You need 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, Premiere plus Aspect HD. Bottom line, about $3000. Heuris clearly seems to feel editors working with HDV on Mac's will spend $5000.

Heath, if you had an HD project due next week and owned a Mac and were using FCP -- would you really run out and buy a PC? I don't think so.

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : broadcasters and cable companies will have tons of *new* content creators out there in 2007 when the FCC forces everyone to switch.
Chris -->>>

But just to be clear, the FCC is not mandating a switch to HD. They're saying broadcasts must be DIGITAL, but that doesn't require them to be high-definition...

If I had a project due next week, I'm screwed. I would probably use a friend's fast PC.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : If I had a project due next week, I'm screwed. I would probably use a friend's fast PC. heath -->>>

And spend $1200 for Aspect HD. And, if you don't buy it now the price will be going up to $1600 to $1800.

Plus, your friend better have a 7200RPM RAID.

It's a really fast $90,000 Avid.

heath

So you'll spend $1200 on a AJA converter to get the signal to HD-SDI.

Although if he has a FW port AND Avid's DS-HD system imports uncompressed HD AND you get a software to demux the HDV AND software to convert to uncompressed -- you should be able to edit.

Of course when your done, you won't be able to get a copy of your work for yourself. No way back to your camcorder or to D-VHS.

Good points, though likely they'll want it on BetaSP, as is still the common format in West Palm Beach. That and DVCPro, though DVCam is rising up.

hwm

Don't you want an HD copy?

I'm already thinking about how bad everything I've ever shot is going to look in 5 years when we all have 72" plasmas on our walls. That's why I want to shoot in HD from now on.

All my great footage from China, India, Korea, and Japan will look like crap blown to this size.

By the way, I forgot to mention that Ken said he "happens to know" that Sony has a HDV cam in the works. He said that we'll probably see it at NAB, but won't be on the market until afterwards.

The traveling Sony truck (18 wheeler currently going around the country) was in my area recently and I asked a Sony rep about HDV - he said that Sony would probably skip the MiniDV tape and go right into optical discs.

You know - I've had some problems with the 4HDV that I bought. But, it's quite apparent that it's the only (cost effectived) solution for Mac right now. Does anyone else want to offer Steve more $$$ to upgrade the software and make it a little easier. I'm not sure of it can be made easier?

I'd be willing to shell out (up to) $500 for a seemless 4HDV that pulls in footage and makes it automatically ready for FCP editing. Is that possible Steve? If a few of us commited to paying would you write a program that does it?

Chris

Vegas+DVD is a cheaper alternative.

If you're on a PC - I'm talking about Mac!

I'm all for Steve making more money for his 4HDV. He has something no one else does - yet. Like I said in my post 5 minutes ago - if Steve wants to write something that'll be a little easier I'd pay for it.

I'm pretty sure everyone out there with a Mac would pay too. I'm just not into paying over $500 for something that basically is doing a converstion. It wasn't painful to pay $100, but it would be worth $400 more to make it seemless on a Mac.

Chris

I was responding to Heath and Steve.
A 2.4GHz PC with 1GB RAM and Vegas+DVD is a cheaper alternative.

I'll respond to you both in one.

Vegas on a 2.4 ot 2.8 can NOT do realtime effects. ALL effects must be rendered before they play smoothly.

They same limitation exists for the $5000 Heruis product. Actually, in terms of playing MPEG-2 -- Vegas does better than Heuris!

"4HDV" -- now being called "HDVcinema" -- lets you edit it real-time. Playback is full-speed. FX are real-time.

That leaves 2 real-time solutions. Aspect-HD and HDVcinema.

Chris, at this point we should work together to solve any problem you have. I need to see where you are stuck before I consider automating the process. Which is a good idea. I'll email you now.

Interesting side-point. When I talk to Hollywood type editors they respond "we don't care about these pre-edit steps. WE don't have to do it! That's what film school interns are for!" Must be nice!!!

I don't have a film school intern...

heath

Hi Steve,
are you sure you want to change your product's name to HDVCinema, it seem that 4HDV was more unique. Also Applied Magic has its "HD Cinema" (missing your 'V') workstation -- very similar, which is the very machine you were running Aspect HD on.

Regarding real-time. Yes you can say only Aspect HD and 4HDV are real-time products. But it would be fair to add that they are not the same type of real-time (when is the definition of real-time ever the same ;) ). 4HDV is off-line, whereas Aspect HD is an on-line solution. This helps explain the price difference :) (although you probably could charge more.)

"Real-time," like how Apple called Final Cut Pro 3 real-time, when it was actually a DIFFERENT kind of real-time?

hwm

Heath,

Exactly!

The term real-time has been killed by marketing. People always need to ask now, "what do you mean by real-time?"

Now FCP 4 claims to be the REAL type of real-time...I don't have it, so I have NO clue.

heath

FCP new real-time is like Avid's real-time a year earlier.

Which Canopus offered 3 years earlier. :)

David, "off-line" has lots of old meanings from tape and Avid.

I prefer "ProxyProcess."

But from an editor's point of view, if your Mac can support 4 streams of video (which a dual 1.42GHz PowerMac did in my review of FCP) it will be similar to Aspect HD. But, not the same as you point out.

If you look at my site, I'm careful to say you'll get the same "real-time" performance you get with DV using FCP. In other words, you get Apple's real-time. No more. No less.


It will remain "HDVcinema" because HDV isn't really "HD" as in the "HDboxx." (HDboxx is a long existing PC solution for HD.) The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. I'm not claiming HDV is the same as HD as in HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. -->>>

I don't :) Could you please explain? Thanks!

Steve,
Aspect HD doesn't consider there to be any significant difference other than HDV is a subset of HD. HDV is just the MPEG2-TS data on DV tape standard, just another tape format. The decompressed image data is HD. Aspect HD can capture and output to HDV, but also any other Premiere compatible HD footage can be supported. We have users shooting on CineAlta or similar and editing under Aspect HD. We don't consider it only an HDV product.

IF you define HD only by spatial rez, then HDV is HD.

But, the plain fact is that the HDV we have now is 720p30 not 720p60.

Temporal rez is as important as spatial rez. Maybe more important.

In the Mac world there are well defined HD solutions that use PCI boards with SDI-HD input and output.

I don't consider the HDVcinema to be in this market.

And looking at your Product page I see this:

* Works with JVC's JY-HD10U and GR-HD1 HDV camcorders

* Edit in real time using familiar Adobe Premiere® 6.5

* Final output to both HD and SD resolutions in a large range of formats (MPEG2-TS, Windows Media 9, HUFF_YUV, uncompressed, DV, MPEG2-DVD, etc.)

I don't see anything about the INPUT of HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.

Some corrections.

HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. Future CineForm products will directly support all HD resolutions, spatial and temporal for both high-end and low-end markets.

Today's Aspect HD complete workflow is targetted at the JVC cameras because that is where the volume market is today. This is why our first product is 720p30. However, nothing will stop a HD-SDI user from importing uncompressed AVIs into Aspect HD (yes for now 720p30.) These files are easily converted to CFHD for real-time no-proxy editing. Animaters can import TGAs, TIFFs or uncompressed AVIs straight into Aspect HD for post work. All of this is HD. Users are doing all of this.

The Apsect HD editing process (not capture or export) has nothing to do with HDV, which means it is it extremely flexible. You have previously pointed out that the CineForm files works in After Effects, just as they do in 100s of PC tools, this is a result of the codec solution included with Aspect HD. Once the user realizes this (documented or not ;) ) you can mix sources from almost anywhere.

Basically HDV is HD.

HDV is like mini-dv; HD is like DVCam. These are my thoughts, obviously, but I think it's mostly a very rough comparison to kind of roughly show how HDV is compared to HD.

heath

ps-Then again, as Radiohead once said, I might be wrong.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Some corrections.

HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. --->

You are right, 30p is an HD standard. But I'm still uncomfortable using this technically valid point to market a product into market segment that normally uses CineWave and AJA products.

I simply prefer the term HDV.

So you'll call it HD and I call it HDV.

But a question. Does Aspect HD currently handle 720p60 and 1080i?

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- But a question. Does Aspect HD currently handle 720p60 and 1080i? -->>>

The shipping product "Aspect HD" is a 720p30 product.

We will have a different line of products to meet the needs of 720p60 and 1080i/p -- some will be aimed at HDV formats and others to the high-end production world. The technology is in place, but these other HD formats are yet to be productized, so I don't have any details.

OK -- I thought I missed something. But it is good you clarified how the codec technology is not confined to HDV as it wasn't obvious to me.

On the other hand, I do realize why I'm uncomefortable about the term "HD". I have no problem with JVC calling HDV HD because it is.

But when it comes to editing, I know that those shooting high-end HD want to edit in 10-bit uncompressed. That's what the PCI board products offer. They do not want to use an intermediate codec.

And they they need FCP or Avid, not Premiere Pro because they need 48-bit YUV internally plus floating-point computations.

They also need a Proxy format because uncompressed requires so much storage.

Neither of our solutions provide all these high-end HD capabilities--which is why I feel better with the term HDV for mine. And why I don't see the Applied Magic PC as being HD in the same way as the HDboxx, Avid, or FCP.

Well, this is certainly exciting news. I think most of us expected it, but expecting it and hearing a rumor confirming your expectations are two different things. Now if only there was a good rumor about a Canon model with interchangeable lenses...

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : By the way, I forgot to mention that Ken said he "happens to know" that Sony has a HDV cam in the works. He said that we'll probably see it at NAB, but won't be on the market until afterwards.
Chris -->>>

Chris, To see what I said in print makes it seem so much more certain that what I thought I was saying even if the words are the same.

I see the words about Sony "working on" and then "maybe NAB" and and it seems so concrete and certain. But it is more vague than that and I of course don't speak for Sony any more than Apple. It could change or even be cancelled although I do expect that what I said will turn out to be accurate.

I wasn't pitching this HD line to teachers. Actually it is a very different tool that would change the way they work and many of them are still going digital in the first place. I gave that talk to update their knowledge about the video world in general, not as a sales pitch. That whole conference was not a sales pitch. The other talk also was not JVC specific but was a general discussion of video image gathering.

I didn't know I was ignoring you after our FCP discussion, actually I think the last thing we discussed was your inviting me to come to NH to talk to another group of people which I said I was happy to do. And I look forward to doing it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Freed JVC : I see the words about Sony "working on" and then "maybe NAB" and and it seems so concrete and certain. But it is more vague than that and I of course don't speak for Sony any more than Apple. It could change or even be cancelled although I do expect that what I said will turn out to be accurate. -->>>

We should heed Ken's words. The fact that Sony has signed-up to the HDV spec does not mean they will produce an MiniDV-tape based HDV camcorder. Sony has told me it will Blu-ray -- so it may be HDV file on disk. But it might not be. Or Sony may do both -- MiniDV tape for consumers and Blu-ray for prosumers.

In an ideal world, Sony will bring out product(s) that are fully compatible with JVC's so that everything done to support the JVC will carry-over to the coming HD camcorders. But Sony doesn't follow. Sony tends to make propritary products. Which means we can't assume when a Sony camcorder arrives we'll be able to plug it and edit.

For example, Sony may decide the workflow should be like their new XDCAM. Move the optical disk to your computer. That would mean you would need a Blu-ray DVD drive -- easy for Sony because they make both the drive and PCs. But what about the file structure? Sony has bought Sonic Foundry which makes Vegas which just happens to play MPEG-2 TS already. That makes it easy for Sony to supply its PCs ready to edit. Will Sony supply information to Apple? To Avid?

As far as I know, Sony has not made either HDCAM or IMX codecs available to anyone. Only Sony NLE's get them.

One other point, Sony also told me their Blu-ray camcorders will feature a bulit-in NLE just like Hitachi/Panasonic DVDcams. They could build a camcorder without FireWire access to source. Only FW out from edit material to HDTVs. The advantage is no competition with HDCAM.

I'm not predicting -- only cautioning that we should -- as Ken says -- make no assumptions about Sony.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :

Vegas on a 2.4 ot 2.8 can NOT do realtime effects. ALL effects must be rendered before they play smoothly.

They same limitation exists for the $5000 Heruis product. Actually, in terms of playing MPEG-2 -- Vegas does better than Heuris!>>>


You can use proxies in Vegas that do the same "real-time" editing that your product does.

Vegas CAN do "real-time" preview. If you have a simple crossfade between two shots. It will REAL TIME preview at a full 30 frames. As long as you have a decent machine. If you add a couple filters to it, on a 2.4 machine, it will probably be to much and vegas will dump the frame rate down to say 20 fps during the crossfade in order for you to preview the segment. To me, the reduced frame rate, even though you are watching the video at the same speed as the events happened in "real time," is not "REAL TIME PREVIEW." Vegas tells you when it reduces the frame rate. However, up to 15 fps is still a decent frame rate as to get a good idea of what the effect will look like. If you need to, you can pre-reder just the effected frames on the timeline. That sectio will then playback seemlessly with the other footage.

Be carefull. You can't Say that "ALL effect must be rendered in order to be previewed smoothly." Yes, if start to add multiple effects, the computer will not be able to process it all and you will lose the REAL TIME preview.

As system speeds increase though, you will be able to REAL TIME preview even more tracks and filters at the same time.

Even now, with the 3.2 machines and a raid array you can REALTIME Preview a decent number of effects.

And the whole program is $700.00. This also includes one of the most powerful audio editors available.

Sonic Foundry/Sony left an open door in the programming of Vegas as well. They allowed a scripting language. So if you come up with an idea of something you would like Vegas to do, that it does not already do, you can write a script for it. The script can be made into a button on the tool bar. In fact, you don't even need to write the script. There is a forum on Sony's site full of people that will write any script you throw at them. There are also A large number of scripts that already exist and are free for downloading.

I understand that Vegas is PC only, and if you have a mac, it is not an option. But if someone is interested in switching to pc, they should know what Vegas can do. It is a much better option than Premier and Aspect, but that is just my opinion.

The educational version of Vegas4.0+DVD is under $400.