I've played with safe areas. I've adjusted Action and Text areas in prefs. I still don't get everything.

I'm at a loss. Do I need to take this into account when I film? I do work for others. They say all my stuff gets onto their final rendered VHS/TV screen. What am I doing wrong?

Grazie

Grazie, I don't understand the question. WHAT don't you get? You mean you want the entire 720x480 (convert to PAL for your settings) to show on a TV? If so, forget it because every TV is different - what works for yours might not work for mine. You can show it on 3 different TVs and get 3 different areas.

For titles, keep them inside the title safe area and all will be fine.

For action, keep it inside the action safe area and all will be fine.

Yes, some other means of showing the video will show the ENTIRE frame.

Edward, I use my XM2 to film - it's PAL - right? Okay. All of this shows in the Preview Screen in Vegas4 - that is, I can see in the Preview that which I framed while shooting. I have V4 setup as PAL 720 x 576. The Action dotted line then "cuts-off" a proportion of this fine camera work - it's presently setup with 20% Text and 10% Action. The stuff outside of this 10% does not show on the TV EITHER when I finally print to tape and show the content on a vcr OR thru firewire for External monitor - yeah? Sorry if I didn't make this clear enough . . I did try.

Any ideas? I'd like to know that, that which I shoot and frame in my PAL XM2 will show in the final work. Otherwise, in future, I'll have to compensate and re-frame my work to adjust for editing within Vegas. This cannot be correct. If it is I'm sure you will tell me . . . .

Best regards,

Grazie

That is all perfectly normal. Unfortunately, the size of the "cut off area" varies from TV to TV. So even if you adjusted it to match yours, it will be different for the next person. Just expect to lose that area. In fact, I believe the eyepiece also has some compensation for the safe area as well. I'm not sure on the GL2 (xm2) but I know the XL-1 eyepiece pretty well reflects what I see in the safe area.

Another alternative (at least in SOME instances), use a TV as an external monitor attached to the camera's output. This will show you exactly what will be seen on a typical TV for framing purposes.

This IS news to me . . . I'm gonna have to film/frame with this in mind. 10% is quite a whopping "slice" taken off all round my superb film work - yeah?

Grazie

At least you're not alone - it happens to EVERYBODY.

Then why why why, in all that is MGM, does the footage I give to my Gaffer who then edits on an AVIO does my work fill his screen? Both on his preview and on his final edit?

Maybe he is using a true monitor that can display all the way to the edges? It certainly isn't a standard TV.

Graham,

You can use Vegas to "shrink" your video so that in the preview window there are black areas in the outer 10% or so. This will recover some of your shot to fill the TV frame, but if it is shown on a TV with less overscan, then it is possible that black may be seen around the edges.

Some professional monitors also have a underscan switch to allow you to view the entire frame.

Randall

Understood. I'd really like to have a way that I can frame and see that which I film and that which I can be assured will be seen within V4 Preview and finally in output when I PTT and seen on a TV screen. I understand there is a compromise. I suppose I'm looking for a real world solution that would fit the bill. Presently the surgical removal of the 10% is a tad drastic. However I do now understand why it IS there.

What do you Guys 'n Gals proffer as a "sensible" solution/compromise? Would it be to shrink/stretch the format so that the incoming full XM2 output is within between say the 10% Action Area and the edge of the Preview screen? Or what?

Look, thanks everybody for taking the time out to assist me - really much appreciated.

Grazie

I guess I still don't fully understand the problem. I tape FOR the safe area. Just pretend the outside 10% doesn't exist. If you happen to encode for some format that DOES show the whole area (i.e. a wmv for computer display), you simply get a little extra around the outside.

I can understand your first reaction, Graham. It's like, what? Why?

Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts
of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and
begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin
the other etc.

Now since these are just electrical signal you can also SEE these
signals if your TV is not setup properly and if you go too far all
sorts of stuff starts to happen. To make it safe (hence the safe
areas) they used an area that is not to be displayed. It is there
to make sure you see the picture but not anything outside of
that. It is a safe zone.

In the digital world we don't have such signals and we see
everything that is recorded. If you had one of the older capture
cards you could see extra information like teletext being captured
as well with the stream which you wouldn't see on your TV.

As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW
roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not
the rest.

So when you are framing you should be framing right. Also the
most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom.

Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't
because you run into problems when people watch it on computers.

It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has
never posed a problem really.

Rob, thanks very much for taking the time to respond.

My reaction is HOW to cope with what I want to do. I want to frame and film knowing that that which I film will appear all the way through. But thanks for your understanding.

"Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts
of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and
begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin
the other etc." Yup I knew this . . much of the data a TV needs to function is secreated into these DARK zone/area.

Agree about the digital world.

"As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW
roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not
the rest." . . . well . . . I'm sure you are correct . . but it does "slice off" 10% all the way round when I get it into Vegas4 - seems heaps to make sure the data streaming and other muck does not collide with my masterpiece.

"So when you are framing you should be framing right." - I've been framing using the edges of the lcd or eyepiece as the guides.

"Also the most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom. " okay . .

Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't
because you run into problems when people watch it on computers." - Oh no I aint gonna go there, don't worry about that!

"It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has
never posed a problem really." - Thanks again for your reassurance.

I feel like I want to stick or draw on the LCD a cross hatch area to stay clear of. Maybe I should apply some of that sticky pbacked plastic to the LCD?

Maybe I should organise some screen shots for everybody here so that you and others can see what I've been banging on about. I don't have a place to dump this stuff. Anybody wanna take care of my jpgs or pngs or tifs?

Educated BUT still peeved - Grazie :-(

ps - I am not gonna go with the sticky backed plastic idea . . . . .

You could also be practical about it. If something's worth pointing a camera at, it's worth being put in the middle of the frame.
Like Walther Matteaw said in Front Page: Who's gonna read the second paragraph?

(I feel I didn't spell that name right - but you get my meaning.)

Grazie, what you see on the XM2 viewfinder should be, roughly, the safe area. What you see on the computer screen should be MORE than what you saw on the viewfinder. Frame for the viewfinder and you should be fine.

Okay . .

Tor, Rule of thirds and placing the subject to one side in the frame.

Ed, what I see on the preview of V4 is what I shot, or at least that which I'm happy with. The safe areas then cuts 10% off that. I'm not talking about a small correction or making the picture fit into any TV screen because of data streams at the extreme edges

10% is massive. This in my mind is totally unacceptable.

For example I shot a piece with a woman putting up a banner. She is on the extreme left. Nicely balancing the rest of the shot . . the banner streams out to her right. What do I get on the Preview screen? I get what I shot. BUT, but, but, the Safe Areas in Vegas then cut her completely out of the editable areas. You can just about make out her right arm and half of her right leg. Ed, if what you say is correct - what I frame is what Veags will deal with, this is presently not my experience. Believe Ed I do, "Frame for the viewfinder" and I expect the result of, " . . and you should be fine."

I'd dearly LOVE to up load what I'm banging on about. Apart from being frustrating in terms of managing this "feature", trying to get this communicated is proving a tad crazy-making!

. . okay . . who is gonna be the foster parents of these pics? As they say seeing is believing.

My apologies if I'm sounding a touch . . . . hysterical, . . . . but I really can't think of any other way of getting across this situtation.

My friends - thank you,

Grazie

You keep talking about "cutting" off. Vegas does/should not cut
anything off. Those markers are there as GUIDELINES. To show
you how it will probably look.

Let's do the following. The scene you are describing in the post
above, please EXPORT an UNALTERED jpeg frame of it (make sure
you set the preview window to full best before doing this in
Vegas!!) and put this up on a site if you can or otherwise e-mail
it to me ASAP and I'll put it up for you and us to see.

Secondly, hook up your camera to your TV and playback that
scene and pause at roughly the same frame you have in Vegas.
Now how do those GUIDELINES from Vegas match with your TV
**AND** what you see in your viewfinder/LCD on your camera?
How close or not close at all is this?

Please do put up a frame or e-mail it to me at rob@ladyxfilms.com
so I can take a look in Vegas myself!

Rob - Brilliant! PNgs any good?

I got on the case prior to you offering this lifeline.

'You keep talking about "cutting" off. ' . . okay, apologies my way of looking at the world.

. . and yes I do understand these are guidelines, and it is these Action area guidlines that eventually prepare my output to PTT. When I preview via firewire to analogue TV the guidelines show quite corredctly what is being "removed". This is then the format that gets PTTed via my master miniDV to VHS tape. It is on this VHS tape then onto the TV screen that the image is cropped. It is cropped by the amount of the guidelines. I want to get the V4 guidleines to prepare more of what I see on the Preview screen. Digital to Digital isn't the problem, it's when it goes out to analogue - yeah? I would just like that extra little piece . . yer know, peace of mind . . .

Grazie

Some cameras show the entire DV image and some don't. I would run a 10% overlay through the camera to see where the viewfinder/LCD stands on this, or just hook it up to a TV to compare what is in the overscan area.

The overscan thing is a nasty surprise.

Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when
outputted to VHS tape and then playing back?

I saw your PNG's and all looks fine. The area that should dissappear
(I like to use that word instead of cut off) is the one outside the
outer line (NOT the INNER line!). The inner line is the safe area
for titles.

When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens
you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens?

"Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when
outputted to VHS tape and then playing back?" No . . . I'm saying it fills further, if you like, it gets bigger -ie more is removed. The guidelines appear, in my terms, to pull inwards and remove that which beyond the second outer line. Fromhere to the Preview edge, goes. So in my mind the picture onto analogue is filling in more . . . I don't get black bars around the image - I get less of the image by it being bigger . . I don't know how else to explain this . . .

" . . . The area that should dissappear is the one outside the outer line" . Yes exactly. It's the area from the outside of the outer line that goes. What i frame in the XM2 is that which you've now seen completely within the Preview window - ie that which I frame while fiuliming is that which I see in the WHOLE Preview window - no not the inner line - this is for titles, as you say - very useful too!

You say that this is the area that "should dissappear" - what's the should? Are you saying that's how things are and live with it?

"When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens
you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens?" You can see it, it is this outer line dashed-box. Now can I increase this Safe Action area to get closer to the framing on my XM2?

. . grazie

No you can't since it is a GUIDELINE. Changing those lines won't
alter a thing. It is only for your perception of things. When I
was saying REDUCED in size I meant zooming in (basically),
so that's the same.

I don't think I can help you futher. I'm only following half of what
you are saying. All I can say is, yes, the parts outside the outer
lines normally aren't visible on a TV. But that SAME area should
also NOT be visible on your GL2.

Perhaps someone else can explain it more clearly or help you
further. Sorry.

"But that SAME area should also NOT be visible on your GL2." But it is! It is there when I filmed . . it is there when I capture to my HD and it is there, of course in Preview. It is the area from the outer line to the inner edge of the Preview screen window. Now, if the area from the outside box to the inner edge of the preview screen was Black, I'd understand, but it isn't and you've seen it. It is filled with what I filmed.

You have understood me AND you've given me a clue. I should not be able to see anything from that outer edge - well I and you can.

I've always set my project prefs to go with PAL 720x576. Should there/is there another outer box setting to be used to squash this 720x576 into the outer box area? This would give me a black box around the preview and squeeze the 720x 576 into this outer box?

Grazie

Let's get one thing straight: you CAN see this on your computer.
That's perfectly normal and the way it works. So YES, you WILL
see it when capturing, viewing or editing on your PC. You SHOULD
NOT see this on your GL2 or on your TV though.

If you are doing PAL your project should be set at PAL and
nothing else. Again, it is normal to see it on your PC. It isn't
"normal" to see it on your GL2 and TV.

You probably will see it on a projector (unless it chooses to
simply not display it) and when watching a DVD on your PC....

If you are only concerned with your video being seen on TV's you might just try the Track Motion button on the track header and see what you think. I wouldn't try to recover the whole 10% but something less.

Paul, thank you.

Are you saying to use track motion to "reduce" the overall size of the picture format? Doing this in Track Motion's frame reduction? Yeah, I thought it might come down to this.

Thanks you,

Grazie

I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jesper Hallen : I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline. -->>>

That's what "Print Video to DV Tape" is for! Prints directly from the timeline to a tape with sound.

Unless it was cut's only, without rendering the required areas you wouldn't be happy anyway.

I know but my "print to dv tape" is problematic... I know without rendering its no good, but with rendering it is

Graham,

Yes use the track motion and you will get more, of what you thought you were going to get, on a TV. Like they said you still may want to check that viewfinder. It sounds like that is the probem not Vegas.

Jesper,

When playing back footage from the timeline Vegas outputs
the audio through PC's sound card (if you have one). Only
when printing to tape does it route the audio over the firewire
bus.

What I do is have a cable running from my sound card to my
TV as well so that I can use that when playing from the Vegas
timeline.