I always assumed on the F355 that it basically took in an interlaced image and split the fields then duplicated them (ie shot 50i and made it 50P), that seemed the logical way to me. Is that not correct?
It's not just the data rate writing to disc that needs keeping down, it's the processing speed needed to process twice the amount of info in a second - I would have thought anyway.
Steve

The F35* cams use interlace CCD's with clever processing to get 25P. The 700 has native P sensors. I suspect it will be full res P overcrank, so that begs the question at what bit rate?

I'll know tomorrow.

The F35* cams use interlace CCD's with clever processing to get 25P. The 700 has native P sensors. I suspect it will be full res P overcrank, so that begs the question at what bit rate?

I'll know tomorrow.

That would be such a quantum leap I'd highly doubt it - it would make the Varicam 2700 seem like a toy, high end natural history producers have been desperate for 1080/60P for ages and never seen it even on the horizon so stuck with Varicam, I just can't imagine it just appearing like this.
I'll stick my neck out - it definitely won't be full res 1080/60P! Look forward to you proving me wrong tomorrow Alister - and I'll get my cheque book out immediately for the PDW800 if it is.
Steve

Greetings from fabulous Las Vegas. Alright gents, spent all day yesterday with the 800. Here are some things I came away with.

Yes, it is half resolution when overcranking.

The 700 will be able to do 24p with the option board, but WILL NOT be upgradeable to over/under cranking.

Some other quirks we discovered..

You lose the 2x focus mag and the digital 2X extender when the 800 is in 24P mode. They tell me it's a hardware limitation.

I asked specifically why the 800 and who is it targeted towards. The answer is that it's aimed at the production market whereas the 700 is positioned to be a news camera with the idea that news doesn't need all the bells and whistles that the 800 has.

Physically, the two cameras are pretty much identical. The only giveaway is the 800 gets the Cinealta badging on the right side whereas the 700 has the PowerHad badging in that location.

-gb-

Greg can you confirm whether or not SD will be an option in the 800? I still need the SD option but I'm a production cameraman, not a news shooter.

Cheers,

Brad.

.....can you confirm whether or not SD will be an option in the 800?
It appears so - Sony : Sony expands XDCAM HD422 series with new camcorder and deck : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1239029983194&parentFlexibleHub=1166605171707) .
.....offering a frame rate of 23.98P natively in 1080 mode and multi-format recording flexibility as standard – including standard-definition recording to support legacy formats (MPEG IMX®, DVCAM™ and 4:2:0 HD content). They also provide multi-format (1080i/720P) recording, as well as HD/SD conversion and cross-conversion during playback between 1080i and 720P.

I'm left curious about what 'half the resolution' actually means when overcranking the 800... Does that mean we might be working with more pixels if we shoot at 720p 50/60, which is 2/3rds the res? I've found it quite easy to get 720 material out into a useable slo mo form by going through vegas, and while I'd rather just flick a switch if I want to overcrank, is the resulting resolution trade off greater than working 720p footage? Perhaps something one of you NAB attendees might be able to qualify?
Thanks,
Peter

Overcrank will be at 1920x540 so overall it's still more pixels and will probably look sharper than 720P

PDW700 been awarded Gold status by discovery at 24P, so should be same for PDW800.

[QUOTE=Alister Chapman;1114926]Overcrank will be at 1920x540 so overall it's still more pixels and will probably look sharper than 720P

Alister, Can you please explain 1920x540? that no sense to me at all. Seems out of aspect, wouldn't it be more like 1280x720?

Only the vertical resolution is halved. In effect the camera shoots 1920x1080 in overcrank but the image only contains 1920x540 resolution.

On a side note anyone going to the Sony booth must take time to go look at the codec stress test demo, very interesting.

To clarify, of course the output is still 1920x1080, it's just that the 1080 lines are made up of 540 lines doubled up.

Can't describe how pissed off I am at the 700 not being able to be upgraded to overcrank. From my experience (limited but sufficient) I thought the slomo on the F355 was very nice looking with the half res, and the 700 is a lot sharper to begin with. Will have to discuss with my rep what are the best options but I'm not the biggest Sony fan just at the moment!!!
Steve

Will have to discuss with my rep what are the best options but I'm not the biggest Sony fan just at the moment!!!

Well, I did say when the 700 first came out that it would be better to wait. A lot of people told me that you could wait forever and to buy now, but in this case it was always going to be that Sony would release a sister camera. And with an investment of the price of the 700/800 its as well to get the camera that does *exactly* what you want it to.

I'm not the biggest Sony fan just at the moment!!!
Steve

Could be worse. You could own a F23 and be staring at the SRW-9000.

its as well to get the camera that does *exactly* what you want it to.

Nothing's ever going to fit that bill, you've got to get something even if it has compromises. I just wish there had been some hint that something like the 800 was coming this soon. More to the point, I'd be prepared to bet that there was no reason they couldn't have made the 700 with the 800's spec in the first, just a way to get people to split with their cash for the 700 and then rake in more by releasing the 800 a year or so later.
Steve

There were hints. It's Sony, and XDCAM cameras always come out in pairs. I said this quite a few times when the 700 first came out.

just a way to get people to split with their cash for the 700 and then rake in more by releasing the 800 a year or so later.

Nope.More likely they were evaluating effects on the HDCAM line and the views of people who had recently invested in F900R's.

Nope.More likely they were evaluating effects on the HDCAM line and the views of people who had recently invested in F900R's.

You carry on believing that if you like, I'll carry on being a cynic.

Steve

There were hints. It's Sony, and XDCAM cameras always come out in pairs. I said this quite a few times when the 700 first came out.


And actually that's the point, if they had come out in a pair people could have made their minds up then which one they needed, I'd have taken the variable speed one. Now they might get my money for a 700 and an 800.
Steve

Steve, I realise that you are annoyed, but you have to calm down a bit. Sony do not play games like that with cameras of the expense of the 700!

The fact of the matter is that the 700 is aimed at news and other similar applications such as documentaries etc. Not specialist cinematography and film style production. It can be used for those things certainly, but it was never the primary remit for the camera.

I know that Sony were concerned about the effect of a do it all high end XDCAM camcorder on recent 900R owners because I was told directly.

And actually that's the point, if they had come out in a pair people could have made their minds up then which one they needed, I'd have taken the variable speed one.

The 330 and 350 had a release delay between them. Not as large as the 700 and 800, but still a slight delay. The 700 has had its firmware developed through the year, and I know for the fact that the XDCAM team are under a lot of pressure. A camera like the 800 was always on the cards, all it took was a bit of patience. Did you absolutely need to get the 700 when you did? Or could you have waited just that bit longer?

Don't worry, I'm perfectly calm, I'm fortunate that I've tons of work on so the camera will pay for itself very quickly.
It's just annoying that these companies keep doing this, it's a well-known tactic and I'm surprised you're not aware that it happens!
They should release the sister cameras at the same time and people can then make their minds up - just as they should have done with the EX1 and EX3, you can be sure that a fair few people who bought the EX1 were at least a little peeved that very soon afterwards the same model but with interchangeable lens and decent viewfinder was released.
Steve

it's a well-known tactic and I'm surprised you're not aware that it happens!

With consumer cameras yes, but not with broadcast. Not to anywhere near the same degree anyway. And the reason for that is that they have powerful networks in the US investing in large quantities of equipment who demand to be involved and know developments early on.

They should release the sister cameras at the same time and people can then make their minds up

The US news networks were chomping at the bit for the 700. Sony had to release something or they would have lost contracts. Sony probably would have liked to have released the two cameras at almost the same time, but you can bet there were development hurdles to overcome, as well as looking at the impact of the 700 on their other lines, and that would be the reason why.

Sony aren't evil. If you speak with their guys I think you'd be taken aback at just how on the ball they are, as well as how accepting of constructive criticism they are. Contrary to common believe they do actually care what we think!

Greg can you confirm whether or not SD will be an option in the 800? I still need the SD option but I'm a production cameraman, not a news shooter.

Hi Brad,

As far as I can tell, there is no option to do SD on the 800, being that SD support is included out of the box (wink). It's an option for the 700 though.

regard,

-gb-

I know that Sony were concerned about the effect of a do it all high end XDCAM camcorder on recent 900R owners because I was told directly.

No, what they were concerned about was that some folks would buy the cheaper 700 instead of the 900 and they'd lose money, no question about it.
Steve

Has anybody seen the SLo Mo (50/60 fps) from the 800? How well does it cut with the on speed HD422 24/25/30p?

I'm wondering how well the resolution loss is handled?

The 800 overcrank cuts reasonably well with on speed footage. It depends on the picture content as to how big the difference is. The image does look a little soft compared to on speed but the difference is less noticeable than the difference between 1920x1080 on speed and 1280x720 overcrank from the EX.


Remember when the 700 was launched the feature set and firmware was a mile from where it is now. I suspect the main reason the F800 didn't come out sooner was due to firmware development. The team behind these cameras is not huge and they have been flat out trying to get many things working, not just the hardware but things such as NLE integration. I believe Sony had to give AVID a lot of help to get AMA and full proxy integration working. There are also different electronics hardware in the F800, it's not as simple as a 700 with different firmware.

I have read with much interest the arrival of the Sony XDCAM F800, and at last Sony have released what I can consider the right up grade for F350 owners. For the last year I have been able to produce some stunning results from the F350 camera and this has served me very well. As a filmmaker and this is what I consider myself to be, I have always been at odds against should I get the EX3 and Letus adapter? Or should I get the ½ inch relay and ultimate. There even comes a time when you have to step back and think about what you shoot and the development of a story over and above the technical considerations of the camera.

There are many pioneers out there to name a few Philip Bloom and Tom Guilmette who have utilised the 35mm adapter to great effect and continue to do so. I guess at the end of this post I am still not totally convinced should I join the 35mm adapter club or go the Sony F800 route, I wonder if anyone else had this dilemma?

My friend Philip Bloom has been utilising the adapter format very successfully for a lot of his work, but in an already over crowded marketplace where everyone now seems to own or will plan to purchase a 35mm adapter, I then begin to think more about being creative on screen because ultimately that is what counts.

So a note to Sony if you would like us to review and shoot with the F800, I am ready like I am sure everyone else that reads or comments on this post.

There's not a lot that a review would tell us over a PDW-700. The basic picture quality is the same and the added features such as image invert, VF overlays on SDi, Dual CC wheels are easy to work out.

The focus assist is nice, there is a box in the center of the viewfinder with a bar graph beneath. As the area in the box gets sharper the bar moves to the right, when it starts to move back to the left the image is getting softer. So you can see by the graph when the image is sharpest. The only downside is that you must go through focus to find out where the peak is, as the peak point depends on the amount of detail in the image.

As for overcrank, well we know how it works on the F3** and this camera is the same only with the picture quality of the 700. There was plenty of demo material being shown at NAB and it did look good.

The user gammas are more interesting. You need to have a PC to brew your own curves and then you can upload 5 curves to the camera using a memory stick. This is not unlike the way you can programme the curves on Sony's HDCAM SR cameras.

Well thanks for the info Alister, for me I was excited at the prospect of what we could get out of the camera of course most of this would be the improvement in picture.

Did you have an opinion on the 1/2 relay and the ultimate with the F350? this I would really like to get everyone's feedback.....is this the way to go? I 've asked Phil already who always give good advice, but I just wanted to know if other people on the non adapter front if they will continue on their path e.g. camera and stock lense?

I just like the full size camera format when shooting personally, but the F800 has caught my attention more so than the F700, ok it's almost the same but not quite.

The user gammas are more interesting. You need to have a PC to brew your own curves and then you can upload 5 curves to the camera using a memory stick. This is not unlike the way you can programme the curves on Sony's HDCAM SR cameras.

Why wouldn't they offer this same functionality with the 700?

snip.....
Did you have an opinion on the 1/2 relay and the ultimate with the F350? this I would really like to get everyone's feedback.....is this the way to go? I 've asked Phil already who always give good advice, but I just wanted to know if other people on the non adapter front if they will continue on their path e.g. camera and stock lense?

I just like the full size camera format when shooting personally, but the F800 has caught my attention more so than the F700, ok it's almost the same but not quite.


The 800 comes with the image flip feature which would allow you to by-pass the use of an optical image flip module. This will make the 35mm adaptor rig much more compact, lightweight and streamlined. I am looking at getting Cinevate's system to use with the 800. Since their system is modular, you would just need the B4 relay and the 35mm Brevis MP.2 adaptor. The all rig will most likely be lighter and more compact than any standard HD zoom lens. That is exciting.

Thierry.

In reply to James: Perhaps the user gammas require different hardware to implement as they can not be hard coded as with the hypergammas and standard gammas. I don't know, maybe it's just one of the things used to differentiate between the cameras. While the hardware may be similar there is still R&D costs to recoup.

The image flip option does make it easier to use 35mm adapters, but it wouldn't be too difficult to flip the image on an external VF on the 700.

The camera is coming in today and should be here all week. I'll be putting it through some tests and clarifying the big differences between the 800 and 700. I'd like to put together a comparison chart and break down the price difference as well. Please let me know if there is anything you'd like me to check out and I'll post my results.

The camera is coming in today and should be here all week. I'll be putting it through some tests and clarifying the big differences between the 800 and 700. I'd like to put together a comparison chart and break down the price difference as well. Please let me know if there is anything you'd like me to check out and I'll post my results.

That's great news Andy, any chance you guys will have an 800 at Cinegear?

I'd love to see a side by side shot of the same action in 25/50P to see the resolution loss in the overcranking mode....... and

Some sort of assessment of whether the using the CC wheel the noise in the blue chip is more obvious (Sony have contradicted their own sales gaff as to why they only put an ND wheel in the 700), and can you get any balance regardles of CC filter - ie can I sill get a high daylight balance (10k +)on the clear CC filter, and finally....

What stop do you get at ND 4 CC D and the sun at your back (I know this is subjective to the lense you are using and the weather in your location but,) for example I'm struggling with my Fuji HD lenses in full daylight I'm often at 5.6/8 and having to use a Pola and or shutter to get to 2.8/4 which is where I prefer to be.

Thanks very much for offering, sorry for the laundry list but hey you asked!

Cheers, Brad.

The camera is coming in today and should be here all week. I'll be putting it through some tests and clarifying the big differences between the 800 and 700. I'd like to put together a comparison chart and break down the price difference as well. Please let me know if there is anything you'd like me to check out and I'll post my results.

An 800 tomorrow? I thought they were not due in the country until July.

Thierry.

It's the same demo unit that was at NAB. We shouldn't get any new units until the end of June / early July.

Brad, thanks for the questions. I'm going to be doing some tests the next couple of days and I should have some good answers for you. We aren't going to CineGear this year, though I could be wrong, but I'm sure the camera will be there.

Andy

Wayne told me there are only two 800's in the country at present. The rest of them from NAB had to go back to Japan. We couldn't get one yesterday for an event here in Dallas.

There are 5 or 6 distinct differences between the two cameras. By that I mean things that the 700 cannot have added as an option.

Over/under crank
Image Invert
Focus Assist (the feature Alister described above)
Optical CC wheel
User Gamma curve

About the only upgrade option for the 800 is the Pool Feed input.

Both cameras have focus mag which works like the EX where the image size is doubled in the VF. The interesting thing we found out at NAB was that focus mag and focus assist do not function in 24P.

-gb-

Greg

You're right the Focus Magnification and Digital Extender do not work in 23.98. Also 23.98 is not supported in SD record modes.

Andy

Andy,

What are our options as far as using the image inverter and mounting 35mm lenses on the 800. I would assume the 35mm lens adptor would be much more compact and simpler to built since it does not have to incorporate an optical flip module?

Thanks.

Thierry.

The Image Inverter works in all frame rates and record formats. And you're right, with this is much simpler 35mm lens adapter (without a flip module which also reduces light) can be used. I think this is a great pro feature. The F800 really has all the makings of the F900 with all the option boards included.

Andy

But so, is anyone making that perfect 35mm lens adaptor without an optical flip module?

T.

I posted a little video featuring the F800. It really just covers the new features that the camera has over the F800. Here is the video:

Hands-on with the PDW-F800 | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2009/05/26/hands-on-with-the-pdw-f800/)

Also check out this posting to see the updates coming to the PDW700 that will come standard in the F800.

XDCAM Camera Updates | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2009/05/14/xdcam-updates/)

i get to play with the PDW-800 today with a really nice zeiss digi zoom T1.9 to 16, 6 – 24ft

Can't wait!!

I wish they would put the C35 colour VF on the demo cameras. It makes them sooo much nicer to use. Every time I go from my EX3 to a camera with a mono VF it's like stepping back in time.