I got a JR for my upcoming shoot thinking I'd pick it right up.
The thing is a absolute pain in the a**.

There hasnt been much praise (that I've heard) around here for it.
I was wondering what you guys thought of it, and if you think it can add THAT much to a production. We typically do alot of hand held run and gun stuff.

Thanks!

Steve

Hi Steven.

I've been hearing a lot of this sort of thing (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14821&highlight=glidecam) lately...!

You can potentially make fabulous shots with a JR. It takes time and practice and patience. It's not particularly intuitive. The unit itself, however, is the best of its class in my opinion--and the least forgiving of "operator error", something like a race car? (I don't know that much about race cars!)

If you are used to shooting run and gun, it may not be for you, in that you need to take the time to mount it, balance it, trim it etc. each time you use it.

What it comes down to is: are you interested and willing to invest your time into learning a whole new skill; is it worth it to you? If so, you may well add a whole new dimension to your productions. I'm not exactly sure what those are, but for instance, check out "Cribs" on MTV and watch closely--do you feel that the way they use Steadicam adds a lot to the show? Obviously that's not a JR in use, but a well-operated JR can probably achieve 80% of the operating finesse as seen on the show, and have the capability of getting places those rigs can't (creeping along the floor and suddenly rising to above one's head, for instance).

Good luck with your choice!

Charles is correct, the JR is an excellent device. I have been using it for years with my VX1000 to add some "production value" to my kid's birthday party videos. It definitely has a learning curve, but I never heard of it referred to as not being intuitive. Nothing worthwhile is easy, operating a Wescam takes practice, Jib arms take practice and so does this. Professional Steadicam operators make a living doing just this one thing because they've taken the time to master it.

I used the JR with the JVC camera on our short, and it performed fantastic as always.

Jay

Jay:

My reference to it (and all gimballed stabilizers) not being intuitive is partially based on feedback I have been hearing on this forum for the past year or so.

As you have undoubtedly experienced, starting and stopping a move with the JR requires a learned technique that involves just the right amount of (miniscule!) force applied at the right time, and even more important, released at the right time in order to make a nice shot. Working off a tripod or handheld is certainly more intuitive in that you move the camera, and it stays there--you get your whole body into it. Almost every new user of a gimballed stabilizer uses too much force, trying to make the rig stay level or pan or whatever, and the more force you use, the worse the results.

Unfortunately it seems that very few of the manufacturers of these products include comprehensive training materials with them. The JR is the exception, with that fabulous tape with Garrett Brown and Ted Churchill and the various well-written manuals.

Most users of these products expect that they should be able to "figure out" how to do this, and many don't, and just end up frustrated, like our friend Steven here.

Jay, you are absolutely right about this stuff not being easy--it took me years of Steadicam operating before I felt great about my work. I leave the Wescam to the aerial operators, having a healthy dislike of helicopters myself, and I'm not a Jimmy Jib operator, but I'm perfectly at home with any remote head that requires panwheels to operate (and that's another non-intuitive interface right there...). I should point out that at this juncture, very few of us who specialize in Steadicam can get away with having just that expertise any more, you are required to be just as comfortable operating a conventional camera in its various forms. On my last job I bounced from Steadicam to dolly to remote head on crane to handheld all within one day. Personally I think it's more fun that way than sitting around waiting to do just the Steadicam work.

Charles,

Mine didn't come with the video, but the book made it so clear how to operate that I was flying smooth in no time. I also don't adjust the Z axis as bottom heavy as they recommend. I think they do that to help new operators maintain horizon better. Having a more neutral balance seems to make the starts and stops more stable, but like you say, a little anticipation helps.

My buddy Lynn Nicholson has a real steadicam, and I've strapped it on a couple of times. Intuitive is the best word I can think of to describe the experience, but then again, I work with these guys and watch them so that probably helps. I know for many people, it's a disaster the first time they try to operate one.

However, the times I've operated the Jib have been a disaster! A good chunk of my work is aerials, Tyler and Wescam,and I set the Jib electronics up the same way that I operate the Wescam. As long as the arm isn't moving, I have no problem tracking. But if I get cocky and start swinging the arm, AND try to pan and tilt, I will start smashing into things and amusing the operator. I have so much respect for these guys that can think about 2 things at once. But like anything else, with practice you can eventually get it.

Do you know Jerry Lane? He lives here but works in LA as an operator that also does Steadicam on features, episodics and MOWs.

Jay

Don't know Jerry, but I do know Lyn. He's a really neat guy. I've flown his prototype rig (Alien), and it's exciting. I also love that he used to play trumpet in Maynard Ferguson's band!

Yea, the Alien is amazing, I wish he would bring it out on jobs. I worked with Lynn yesterday on the Ultimate Fighting Challenge, I direct the 30 minute preshows.

We shot the event in HD with the Progressive HD Productions truck out of Seattle. The show was live pay per view in standard def but will be replayed in HD on DirecTv in a day or two. The truck is 720p and I had a discussion with the EIC about the little JVC camera. They were actually considering buying a few for crash cams and drum cams for concerts, but I broke the bad news that you can only get the HD out on playback, and not live.

I guess this is pretty OT for the steadicam thread, oops.

Jay

For all mini-sized camcorders, including HD10:

If you need an impessively stable shot while RUNNING, get this cheap device: SteadyTracker Ultralite.

Promax has it.

This is no Steadicam, and in my experience, it really helps only in 2 situations:

1. You must run with the camera. No matter if you do it on flat surface or up/down stairs. Man, look at your footage and wonder how pleasantly stable it looks!

2. You must quickly establish an overhead shot. The thing allows you to lift the camera about 2 Ft overhead, while SteadyTracker's base is still resting against your chest or shoulder. Pretty stable footage, too.

For normal Steadicam situations, I do not think SteadyTracker is any good for fluid shots: as you walk, it does (somewhat) smooth out the vertical bumping from the steps, but simultaneously ST introduces some low-freq. waving that makes the viewer sea sick, fast. So use it only in situations as above. Running shots are very good.

Jay,

Too bad you didn't get the video. If you ever see it on eBay, you should get it--just the presentation alone is worth it.

Can someone suggest which camcorder model might be similar for balancing the GR-HD1 on a Steadicam JR? The manual has presets for common camcorders but of course not the HD1!

Best regards,
Paul

Are steady/glide type devices really compatible with the JVC HDs?

It seems like the cameras are too sensitive to motion producing blur, and that even tripod-panning may induce blur. No one can argue with the picture quality on a tripod-locked shot, but has anyone been able to produce usable footage when the camera is in motion?

If so, was this with or without OIS?

Brian

I wasn't aware of the JVC cameras inducing blur, but it sounds like you are referring to the motion characteristics of 24p...?

This being the case, consider that 24 fps and Steadicam have been hand in hand since the machine was invented in the 70's. Avoiding strobing in pans is a learned skill and one just works around panning at that range of speeds. There's no reason to avoid any specific type of shooting because of this.

Charles wrote: I wasn't aware of the JVC cameras inducing blur, but it sounds like you are referring to the motion characteristics of 24p...?
_______________

Maybe motion blur is the incorrect term, but there was an extended thread on problems related to the optical image stablization system on these cameras. One member of this group who uses the camera for skydiving photography reportedly went so far as to glue down the lens to disable the OIS.

It was pointed out that even if the OIS is off, and the camera is resting on a solid surface, and you tap on the housing, that the image reacts awkwardly.

In my limited experience handling an HD1 (I have not yet aquired either camera) I noticed the OIS worked well in SD mode, but behaved poorly in HD mode.

Could this have been an early model problem?

At any rate, it seems that unless there is some fix, that steady cam type shots might be impractical.

I would ideally like to use this camera for such moving shots, so looking for ways to increase stability.

Brian

Let's assume we can afford a much better steadicam (generic) rig, say the ones under $8K. Is the autofocus on the JVC HD cam good enough to do a walk-through in a museum (a la pictures at an exhibition) without having to do numerous cuts and dissolves in the editing phase (to cover up focus lag and hunting)? The reason I suggest the more expensive steadicams is not ease of use, but the ability to carry a mini softbox (Lowel or Anton Bauer, plus Chimera) on the rig. A gaffer might be in the field of view due to the tight spacing in the hallways. Is this a foolish idea, or could it work?

Brian:

I think I was a little high when I wrote that, since the JVC is not a 24p camera. But I am intrigued to hear about motion-related issues with the camera, another recent thread discussed something similar.

It's always recommended to turn off image stabilization when shooting with a mechanical stabilizer. The two effects "fight" each other.

Marc:

From the sounds of your project, you would probably be shooting with a relatively wide-angle setting in order to get the "walk-through" feel, in which case you would likely be able to set the focus around 6 ft and not have to adjust it. DV has such an extended depth of field that this will give you probably 4 feet to infinity.

If you were intending to get closer than that, a camera-mounted light wouldn't be ideal anyway as it would get noticeably hotter as you approached each painting. With oil paintings or works that involve glass, you would need to approach from an angle to keep the light from creating a reflected glare.

As far as the tight hallways, all I can say is that I've trundled down insanely tight hallways with focus puller, spotter, boom guy and electrician with fill light in a row behind me, it's usually possible (but not pretty)! The advantage of having a knowledgeable softbox wrangler in this situation is that they can assure that the issues listed above don't happen by positioning themselves properly relative to the camera, and if they have the device on a short pole, they will always be able to get it up and over you as needed.

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert:

If you were intending to get closer than that, a camera-mounted light wouldn't be ideal anyway as it would get noticeably hotter as you approached each painting. With oil paintings or works that involve glass, you would need to approach from an angle to keep the light from creating a reflected glare.

-->>>

You're absolutely right. My inexperience is showing. There is a lot of glass in each room. The light has to be switched from ahead to up and out of the way, in the transition from hallway to room. That takes two people.

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert:

As far as the tight hallways, all I can say is that I've trundled down insanely tight hallways with a focus puller ... -->>>

Let's see, you don't have three arms? I thought you cameramen were superhumans, from another planet! LOL.

Have you ever done a spiral staircase? That must be a real challenge since not everyone is positioned immediately behind the camera operator. Believe it or not, this museum has such a staircase and it's wide enough for 1.5 people at a time. I'll avoid that.

I think I'll try to convince the Guggenheim Museum to let me shoot their exhibits, using a pair of roller skates. There must be something out there which can be done with my limited abilities and budget.

I couldn't help but be intrigued by this thread. I've owned the little JR thing...I was able to use it for a shoot a long time ago with my first DV cam the VX1K. Indoors it worked great and I gained a lot of forearm strength in the process. When it came time for the real shoot...we were outside on a mountain in the wind and the thing was prone to..um..windy pans. It is/was fairly fragile and mine is now somewhere.

The optical stabalization of the XL1, for my first feature, was quite good especially since I studied dance for 7 years beforehand. However, that was a piece where a little "bump and grind" in the image wasn't out of character.

This summer, I was trying to figure out how to shoot from my horse. The JVC has a stabalizer, but I find it not very good in a lot of situations. I don't blame the camera. Since the resolution is almost 2x SD...the vibrations are magnified...I don't blame the camera.

To get to the point. I built myself a body mount for the camera. It took me much longer than I thought it would as my wife will attest.

The thing with heavy cameras on a trad steadicam...there is a lot of weight that helps in the inertia thing that Mr. Brown talks about.

When You've got a 4 pound cam...there isn't much weight to push around and there is much more risk of minor but significant variations in camera angles and...meaning: crappy shots.

I had these goals in mind when I built it.

1) It had to enable smooth, non-70's-horror film-sway, shots.
2) It had to be strong like a tank.
3) It had to be comfortable to wear.
4) It had to be balanced for the JVD HDV cam.
5) It had to not make the horse think that it was going to eat the horse.
6) It had to not take a degree in rocket science to put it on and adjust it.
7) It had to be fun to build.

I achieved all of the above. While I don't believe that you could put it on and immediately get great shots...

I've taken it on the horse. While my first efforts were quite...well...very bad...I'm getting pretty good by now...and the horse doesn't seem to mind.

An other thing was focus...so, I built a wireless remote focus and also wireless variable ND filter.

So, I've shown this thing to a lot of people. They say a lot of people would want it.

I'm an indie film maker first...but, maybe I could sell this thing (and the other stuff we've built too) and other filmmakers could benefit and maybe it would help me buy my actors better food.

My questions are:

Would you be interested?
What would you guys/gals "like" to pay for something like this?
What kind of training would you like?
What other options would be good?
What other devices would help you make better pictures?

Take Care,

Geoff Pepos
www.rhythmfilms.com

P.S. There is a picture on my web site somewhere where I'm wearing the thing on my horse.

Geoff:

That picture on your website is cleverly silhouetted!

It still appears to involve a counterweighted and suspended platform, so I am curious how it as improvement over the JR in terms of protection from wind?

What are the capabilities/differences between this and a small body-mounted system like the Steadicam Mini, Glidecam V8, Magiqcam etc?

Since the stabilizer market is quite saturated, I might recommend focusing on your wireless lens controls, since there are no low-cost systems out there (most inexpensive ones hover in the $2K range, plus a $1500+ motor) that exhibit decent accuracy. Because of the interest in devices like the Mini35 and homebuilt versions of same, this technology is becoming more relevant to the DV community and a low priced system would truly be news-worthy.

By the way..."It had to not make the horse think that it was going to eat the horse"...great line!

Charles,

Yes, I admit it is silhouetted! My wife took it. i think it's quite good in an artful way... As far as the wind, I use a round weight centered and aero-dynamic like a flying saucer. ; ) Since the center of gravity is slightly below the gimbal and the cam is so small and fairly evenly balanced designwise...only a slight amount of finger pressure keeps it in line even at a 18mph gallop. However, my horse sometimes bumps the weight with his neck...horses can see almost 360 degrees. He probably sees me making faces at his perfomance.

I must admit that this version of the device is not radically different from what is out there...I feel that my body mount is unique...and I look at the quality of the stuff at even $3500+ list and I had to make something more robust for myself...I'm hard on gear...and more like a musical instrument.

Like I said, I'm a filmmaker first. I'd rather do that. I showed it to the guys at a Hollywood rental house. I figured I could make my thing for about $1199 list...they said I could sell a lot of them at that price.

But, as you said, the market is full of these things and the market is really rather small.

I'm now experimenting on the new version and it uses no counterweight and is much lighter with composite materials. You wouldn't want to put a big ENG camera on it...but, the JVC HDV size is ideal. I was a Sax player for years and I'd like a camera rig for myself first, something that feels like a great Selmer...an instrument, not a straight jacket...

I'm meeting with a fabricator and investor in two weeks and we're going to do a biz plan for the wireless follow focus...see if we can keep the cost relatively low and also see if it's really worthwhile to bring to market...It's all in the beginning stages right now...that's why I'm feeling things out with the HDV community.

...But, I've got a movie to finish...that always comes first.

Take Care,

Geoff Pepos
www.rhythmfilms.com

So you thinking a Mark VI feel or more of a Super Action 80?!

I used to rush from shooting gigs to playing gigs back in the day. An interesting moment was when I brought the DP of a fillm I was working on at the time to a gig and afterwards she said, "you know, seeing you playing the sax is just like watching you operate the Steadicam". It never occurred to me before that how similar they are--beautiful machines that promote self-expression.

Charles,

Hey, sorry for the extra long delay in reply.

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert : So you thinking a Mark VI feel or more of a Super Action 80?!-->>>

Well, I do like the feel of the low Eb & C keys and the "floating" LH pinky keys are nice...but, there is something about an old worn-out Mark VI...alas, I haven't really played much for years...

I'm glad the music "reference" connected with you...maybe people should "audition" camera operators. ; ) "No, I don't want a demo reel...I wanna see ya move."

Take Care,

G.

<<<--I used to rush from shooting gigs to playing gigs back in the day. An interesting moment was when I brought the DP of a fillm I was working on at the time to a gig and afterwards she said, "you know, seeing you playing the sax is just like watching you operate the Steadicam". It never occurred to me before that how similar they are--beautiful machines that promote self-expression. -->>>

<,alas, I haven't really played much for years...>>

I know the feeling. Less and less each year. Shame, but there's only room for so many things in the day, right?

OK.... time to resurrect this thread..... I've just acquired a Steadicam JR ( it's an older model), and while I've read and understood the need to practice with the unit, there's still some unanswered quantities that I'd like to have quantified!!

Firstly; how have HD10 users with a Steadicam JR been able to begin recording without upsetting the balance of the unit? As far as I can see there's no connection that can be used on the cam with the switches etc on the Steadicam. Perhaps using the HD10 remote control unit would be preferable?

Secondly; I have the "Art of Steadicam JR" video, but not the manual....so any recommendations on the mounting position for the cam on the mounting plate? Oh, and have any of you mounted a HD10 with XLR mics attached? Does this adversely affect the setup of the unit if they are left off as advised in the video?

Many thanks for your learned responses in advance!!! :)

"Firstly; how have HD10 users with a Steadicam JR been able to begin recording without upsetting the balance of the unit? As far as I can see there's no connection that can be used on the cam with the switches etc on the Steadicam. Perhaps using the HD10 remote control unit would be preferable?"

Pressing the switch on camera will upset the balance, no matter what. With alot practice you'll learn to compensate for this, but you will still introduce slight sway. The remote would be near perfect solution, only if you always remember to keep it ready in your pocket.

"so any recommendations on the mounting position for the cam on the mounting plate?"

Have you considered using the Bogen quick release adapter? It's very convenient to be able to separate the cam quickly from the JR and mount it to, say, tripod without unscrewing a screw and extensive re-balancing.

"Oh, and have any of you mounted a HD10 with XLR mics attached? Does this adversely affect the setup of the unit if they are left off as advised in the video?"

I've tried this, and failed miserably. Two reasons: since the XLR housing raises the center of balance, you'll need to compensate this with alot of weights. This makes the rig uncomfortably heavy. I think it would also stretch the limits of the rather flimsy plastic gimbal. Secondly: given the construction of JR, with such load if you try to tilt the camera down a bit, the joint near the stage will unlock and the camera will nosedive and if you're not quick enough to grab the camera, you'll be in a world of hurt in financial terms (for example if you're filming on the edge of the Grand Canyon or from the rooftop of the world's tallest building. Just a thought.)

Sten,

Thanks for the valuable advice!! I've only just got around to setting up the JR with the HD10.....

Once it's all set up, the JR and HD10 combination feels quite good.....I've even managed the full 360 degree operator around motionless cam move....

Steve,

You can acess both the Steadicam JR Set-up and Operation manuals online at http://www.steadicam.com/jr_manual.htm.