Hi everyone,

My buddy, big into HD and a working DP, and I are talking about doing a project together. But we need some clarifications.

It seems we can't actually get the
720HD images out of the camera without a D-VHS VTR. Is this right? As in, to look at it on an HDTV (CRT), we need to plug it in through a D-VHS VTR, right?

And Steve, we can't go back to HDV (via the camera or the D-VHS) without another plug-in, right? Is it Heuris?

Anyone having success with Steve Mullen's plug-in and manual?

Thanks,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Hi everyone,It seems we can't actually get the
720HD images out of the camera without a D-VHS VTR. Is this right? As in, to look at it on an HDTV (CRT), we need to plug it in through a D-VHS VTR, right?-->>>

You can play 720P straight out of the camera via analog Y,Pr,Pb cables.

<<<--And Steve, we can't go back to HDV (via the camera or the D-VHS) without another plug-in, right? Is it Heuris?-->>>

I believe that is the case right now for the Mac, although Steve knows much more about this. On PC, adding my pitch here, Aspect HD solves the complete production workflow, including exports back to the camera and D-VHS.

David is right, PC has a complete workflow going on. On Mac, it is still not possible to get the footage back directly on camera but it works with a DVHS deck. But getting the footage in computer (Mac) is no problem at all using a firewire cable and firewireSDK 17 from apple, getting the original (untouched) footage back on camera is also no problem on Mac, it is the recompression witch does not permit to get back on camera, the originals go back just fine. It is a question of compression, it should be solved soon, probably by Apple themselves, there is a important amount of people in this buisness working on Mac so it is a question of months.

David's right about output from the camcorder.

4HDV does not yet support FCP back to D-CHS or HDV camcorder. But, it may in the next week. :)

And Heuris ($5000) doesn't yet support the camcorder, only D-VHS.

So that means you should look at Aspect HD, because it works NOW.

However, to get to HDCAM or DVCPRO100 you'll need an HD analog component to SDI-HD converter. Not cheap!

In FCP it's easier IF you have a Mac with an HD board ($10,000). But this hasn't neen done yet.

Thanks everyone. What about Aspect HD, Steve? Can you provide a link?

heath

About the HD board for mac, prices have dropped, some boards are now about 2000$usd but you still need converters to input the HD1 or HD10.

Great! Time to spend MORE money to use this camera! Christ!

I have yet to make one dollar with it! (I'm helping a friend out with a wedding Friday night, but that's in DV mode. Should've kept my XL-1 and waited for the world to catch up with the HDV.)

heath

OK. So I bit the bullet and decided to go ahead and register to this thing so I could ask a few questions myself...

I am a trained and experienced D.I.T. I work as a Director of Photography specializing in High Definition and Standard Definition Digital acquisition. I am a professional who has been working full time in the film industry for the last six years. As a Director of Photography I have worked with the Sony HDW-F900 HDCAM rig in both the standard Sony and Panavision versions. As well as the Panasonic HDC-27F DVCPRO-HD rig. I also have extensive experience in PAL acquisition for D5 HD upconversion. So my understanding of High Definition and up-cross-downconversion is solid.

I have not yet worked with this new camera. And to be honest I am skeptical of its ability to perform on a level that would satisfy my expectations. However, I am very interested in learning about what it can and cannot do. I have been reading through the operation manual that I received from JVC. And I have been discussing the work flow possibilities with my business partner and friend Chris who is currently working with the camera. Chris is also an experienced D.I.T. (Local 600) and working Director of Photography who specializes in High Definition acquisition as well as an owner/operator of the Sony HDW-F900.

At issue, is how the 720/30P High Definition recording gets out of the camera, how it gets cut, how it gets mastered following post, and how it is delivered to the Standard Definition consumer television monitor.

I have not had the opportunity to fully immerse myself in the world of plug in's and workarounds that seem to floating around the net in abundance regarding this new format and camera. So any answer that may lie in such is still unknown to me.

The operation manual seems to (for lack of a better way of putting it) tap dance or double talk its way around how to get the 720 HD signal out of the camera. Or more appropriately put, off the tape.

Steve, you state that David is correct about "output from the camercorder". But playback of the recording, and actually being able to view the full resolution 720 HD recording, seem to be two completely seperate things.

According to the manual:

The manual states on page 39 that when recording in the 720 HD mode, that the signals are output in 480P only.

1. Does this mean that you cannot view the full resolution of the 720 HD recording for monitoring purposes?

2. Is this 480P signal a true downconverted signal of the actual full resolution 720 HD recording?

The manual also states on page 39 that you can set the camera to "720 to 1080" in playback mode and it "converts to 1080i".

3. Does this mean that it upconverts the 720/30P HD signal to a 1080/60i HD signal compatible with any system that recognizes 1080/60i HD? In other words, could this be sent to my HDW-F500 HDCAM VTR and comparable D5 VTR and recorded as a straight up full resolution 1080/60i HD recording?

4. Or, does this mean that the camera merely converts the signal to be compatible with a consumer HDTV home viewing set?

According to Chris, the camera uses a proprietary encoding to compress the 720 HD information "on top of" the MPEG2 recording. Thus, without JVC's proprietary software, or a D-VHS VTR, you can't view the full resolution 720 HD recording. Using JVC proprietary software, you can decode the 720 HD material in a computer through a Firewire capture. Or using a D-VHS VTR, you can record the full resolution 720 HD recording onto 1080 D-VHS via the Firewire connection. Is this correct?


Steve, you mention "4HDV". I am under the impression that this is a plug in that you authored to handle the full resolution 720 HD recording. Is this correct?

You also state that 4HDV "does not yet support FCP support back to D-VHS or HDV camcorder", and "And Heuris ($5000) doesn't yet support the camcorder, only D-VHS". However, your website selling the 4HDV plug in has a chapter list under "4HDV OS X HDV Production Guide" that states:

"Chapter 10: Export an MPEG-2 Movie from FCP Using a Heuris Encoder"
"Chapter 11: Export an Uncompressed HD Movie from FCP"

- Export to what or where?

It also states:

"Chapter 13: Create and Burn an NTSC DVD from an Uncompressed HD Movie"

- Does this mean that you can actually export the full resolution 720 HD material to a donwconverted NTSC MPEG2 file that can be burned onto a DVD-R using a Superdrive and played back on any NTSC Standard Definition monitor via a standard DVD player?

Also, you state that 4HDV "does not yet support FCP back to D-VHS or HDV camcorder. But, it may in the next week".

- It may in the next week? Will it, or won't it? Is this something you are working on?

Your website states that you "may" need to use Heuris. Does this mean we do or don't need Heuris to get the 720 HD recording onto D-VHS?

All of this begs the next part of the question:

If you are successful at getting the full resolution 720 HD recording out of the camera and into a NLE, how do monitor it, and get it back out? Back out to HD and back out to downconverted SD?


I am only attempting to fully understand how I can harness the 720 HD cability of this camera. Any insight and clarification from someone who is experienced in the workflow of High Definition and experienced with said workflow with this new HDV format camera would be helpful.

Thank you.

Most of you questions can be summed up with this one piece of information:

The JVC HDV cameras use standard MPEG2- transport streams over IEEE1394. These TS files can be captured and stored on a Mac or PC, then decoded using off the shelf components. The decoded data is a native 720p30 (29.97) i.e. 1280x720 pixels. This uncompressed can be placed in an format necessary for post production work. This HD data can be upconverted (1080i) or downconverted (SD 16x9 anamorphic DVD) as needed. There is nothing magically here, the only trick is making tools that existed before HDV (FCP, Premiere, etc.) behave correctly with the new data.

Great questions, Jon, probably much more thorough than my original questions. I'm just tired of having to spend MORE money (up to $5000, I may as well buy an HD10 AND an HD1) to get this thing to work.

My upcoming short short short film should help us all learn the camera, as I'll post up results. Not because of the camera's audio, but I've decided not to have any dialogue. If you want to hear how awful it is, I'll gladly try and figure out how (and where) to post some DV clips I shot for my DVD documentary. Anyone able to help me with that?

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Most of you questions can be summed up with this one piece of information:

The JVC HDV cameras use standard MPEG2- transport streams over IEEE1394. These TS files can be captured and stored on a Mac or PC, then decoded using off the shelf components. The decoded data is a native 720p30 (29.97) i.e. 1280x720 pixels. This uncompressed can be placed in an format necessary for post production work. This HD data can be upconverted (1080i) or downconverted (SD 16x9 anamorphic DVD) as needed. There is nothing magically here, the only trick is making tools that existed before HDV (FCP, Premiere, etc.) behave correctly with the new data. -->>>

Two more questions from el heatho:

1. Will we be able to see 720p30 on an HDTV (CRT) as we set up and record shots?

2. Does HDV still require that QuickTime plug-in and that one thing from Apple, can't remember the name. SDK17??

Thanks,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight :
Two more questions from el heatho:

1. Will we be able to see 720p30 on an HDTV (CRT) as we set up and record shots? -->>>

No. 480p/i are apparently the only passthru modes during capture -- you can out use progressive or interlaced SD monitor on set. Once data is on tape all your output modes are available.

<<<--2. Does HDV still require that QuickTime plug-in and that one thing from Apple, can't remember the name. SDK17?? -->>>

I not pushing a Mac solution, so I don't know those requirements. We don't use QuickTime under Aspect HD.

--David.

Thanks. The Apple SDK17 and Quicktime mpeg2 encoder working with the HDV is a question for Steve Mullen.

heath

>>Most of you questions can be summed up with this one piece of information<<

Sums up the question I guess. But provides no answers.

>>The JVC HDV cameras use standard MPEG2- transport streams over IEEE1394.<<

Like I said, I've read the manual.

>>These TS files can be captured and stored on a Mac or PC, then decoded using off the shelf components.<<

Which off the shelf components?

>>The decoded data is a native 720p30 (29.97) i.e. 1280x720 pixels.<<

Like I said, I read the manual.

>>This uncompressed can be placed in an format necessary for post production work.<<

OK. How?

>>This HD data can be upconverted (1080i) or downconverted (SD 16x9 anamorphic DVD) as needed.<<

OK. How?

>>There is nothing magically here, the only trick is making tools that existed before HDV (FCP, Premiere, etc.) behave correctly with the new data.<<

Indeed. Which is why I'm asking the questions above. The only magic would be if HDV did actually work with todays' existing components without requiring a dozen work arounds.

Again, I'm looking for very straight forward answers to my straight forward questions. Nothing else please.

Thank you.

Jon and Heath,

Unfortunately, you cannot monitor in full HD resolution while recording or setting up. It is true that it looks like it is downconverted to 480p, because definition still is very good. The only way to look at your footage in 720p is to play it back... There is no SDI either. For the other question, yes, it upconverts in true 180/60i to the component HD output so you could send it to another recorder, but only in playback, not in recording. The output signal is not some sort of proprietary signal that cannot be read (from the component out), it is a 720/60p, 1080/60i or 480 either P or i signal that can be sent to a monitor or a deck with analog input capabilities. From firewire, it is a mpeg2 stream that has to be decoded or interpreted using the right hardware/software.

Capturing HDV via firewire on a Mac requires firewireSDK17 until the arrival of Panther witch should have the components installed. I don't know if the capture utilities will be there though, but soon enough FCP will support it.

Jon, if you have access to a HD editing suite that can manage component HD input (YPbPr), you can output from the camera and edit like with any other 720p or 1080i source. Then transfer to whatever format suits you. Ex: output in upconverted 1080i, edit and get the final edit back to a 1080i compatible VTR that can connect to your edit suite, in SDI or component depending on your system.

Panther will have it? That makes sense, since SDK17 is under the developer's page.

For now (attention Steve Mullen!), I need:

1. SDK 17.

2. QT 6 mpeg 2 encoder.

3. 4HDV.

Or just one or two only? I'm on the fence right now about buying 4 HDV, because I'm really broke with my DVD release coming up. No one said it would be cheap or easy... ;-)

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Fordham :
<<<--Sums up the question I guess. But provides no answers. -->>>

No, I disagree. Once you have extracted the data is uncompressed form, it is just the some as any HD source. I really wasn't avoiding the question. If you are asking how to edit HD independent of the issue of HDV, that is a completely different question. For the Mac you should look at 4HDV for answers, there you can use FCP for editing, for the PC you can purchase a complete solution (Aspect HD) then use Adobe Premiere for editing.

<<<--Which off the shelf components? -->>>

Aspect HD of course. :) If you are trying to piece together a very low cost solution for yourself, it can be done. Although CineForm does has some exclusives today, you should be able to capture, convert to HUFFYUV or uncompressed, then edit and export to a variety of formats. You will have to collect components from multiple vendors to do it. If you went with our system, things are much easier, integrated, and with real-time on-line editing.

<<<--This uncompressed can be placed in an format necessary for post production work.
OK. How? -->>>

The export timeline options under Adobe Premiere (I assume FCP has the same.)

<<<--This HD data can be upconverted (1080i) or downconverted (SD 16x9 anamorphic DVD) as needed.
OK. How?-->>>

Again Adobe Premiere exporters.

<<<--There is nothing magically here, the only trick is making tools that existed before HDV (FCP, Premiere, etc.) behave correctly with the new data.-->
<<--Indeed. Which is why I'm asking the questions above. The only magic would be if HDV did actually work with todays' existing components without requiring a dozen work arounds. -->>

Not always possible as we have to move forward in technology sometimes. Early NLE systems were based on incompatible variations of MJPEG, when DV came it didn't work in those NLEs. These camera's are MPEG2TS based with an increase in resolution, this will require change. Fortunately the MPEG2TS is an existing HD standard, greatly easing it use (more so than the early days of DV.) A small company like CineForm can be nibble and get a solution to market quickly, it will take larger vendors more time. In the future there will be more vendors providing direct HDV support.

David.

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : For now (attention Steve Mullen!), I need:

1. SDK 17.
2. QT 6 mpeg 2 encoder.
3. 4HDV.

heath -->>>

You need to pay for:

4HDV ($100)
Apple decoder ($20)
ffmpegX ($15)
FCP v3 or v4--you've got

So, $135 to edit your HD material. What a deal!

Of course, if you win the lotterty a DPG5 would be nice + 2 Cinema Screens! :)

Plus the Shooting Guide will provide all the info you need to get the most out of the HD10.

To be honest, I'd rather have the guide. but editing is important, too. ;-)

<<4HDV ($100)
Apple decoder ($20)
ffmpegX ($15)
FCP v3 or v4>>

Got the decoder (gotta find it on my harddrives), but what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in?

If I win the lottery (or lotto, since the FL lotto can get up to $80 million some times), I'll probably just buy the latest CineAlta! And make 9:04 AM, my next film, with no worries of where the money is coming from. Of course, I'll also bank and invest the rest, so I don't lose it all. (Anyone ever watch those stories where idiots win the lotto, like the scumbag who was in jail for being a deadbeat parent, and they invest in glass dragons, horses and swords? Morons...)

Thanks, Steve. I look forward to your answers that Jon posted.

heath

ps-Taking credit card orders yet? If you want, try this out:

http://2checkout.com/

My friend is having no problems selling his t-shirts there.

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in? -->>>

It's an SD MPEG-2 Encoder. My HDVviaduct plug-in converts it to HD output.

Back to the camera?

I've done it. Need to confirm the exact steps. And, to check if a transfer can be made from the camcorder to D-VHS. I expect so.

But I'm without a camcorder. Anyone in NYC? I need one for a couple of hours.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in? -->>>

It's an SD MPEG-2 Encoder. My HDVviaduct plug-in converts it to HD output.

Back to the camera?

I've done it. Need to confirm the exact steps. And, to check if a transfer can be made from the camcorder to D-VHS. I expect so.

But I'm without a camcorder. Anyone in NYC? I need one for a couple of hours. -->>>

My buddy up there is visiting Florida soon, and will be shooting a film with me. I'm going to ship it up to him, if you want to maybe hook up. Where do I get the ffmpegx thing?

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Fordham :

Again, I'm looking for very straight forward answers to my straight forward questions. Nothing else please.

Thank you. -->>>

Jon,

To answer all of your questions would involve summarizing most of the threads on this board. While I try to share any info I have about this camera, I don't think anyone has the time to bring you from zero to full speed on this camera in one thread. All the info is here.

But regarding editing, it doesn't require a dozen work arounds unless you are trying to cram this square peg into existing round holes.

1. If you have an existing editing system such as discreet fire* or an HDCAM deck that only accepts HD-SDI, use the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter to convert analog component HD signal out of camera on playback to HD-SDI. Cross convert 720p to 1080i if necessary. After editing, output HD-SDI to HDCAM, D5, or DVCPro-HD

or....

2. Buy Aspect HD and Premeire 6.5 and start editing, no workarounds required. Import and output to camera or DVHS.

There are several DPs, including myself, posting to this board who are doing exhaustive testing and evaluation of this camera to find out what uses it has in the real world. Get your hands on one and you'll get much better answers to your questions. The purchase price is equal to a 2 day rental of a Panavision package.

Jay

Jay,

Thank you. However, I'm not looking to go from zero to full speed in 3 seconds and one question.

I have browsed these boards extensively and found very little useful infromation. And alot of what seems to me to be mis-information. I'm looking for someone who has actually done some of this and can tell me based on experience that it worked or didn't work and why.

What I'm not looking for is a post like the one by the individual who stated he "connected a Sony F900 and a JVC HD10 to waveform monitor and Sony 24" HD monitor and they looked pretty close". Someone like that who can't tell me how they connected the cameras to the monitors, how they switched back and forth between signals, etc. Such posts have what seem to be interesting information without actually providing us with any real technical description information. He might as well have said I put my HD10 next to a 35mm camera it looked the same. Because that's about as useful as that kind of post is.


You mention that I can use the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter to convert analog component HD signal out of camera on playback to HD-SDI. Have you tried this? Chris has and it didn't work. I'm well aware that human error is always a possibility. I've even seen my "Almighty Local 600" friend Chris spend 20 minutes trying to figure out why he wasn't receiving a picture on a monitor only discover he had an air gap! I've made such mistakes myself from time to time. But by tracing my steps, I can always figure out what happened. So, did the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter work? Do the analogue component outputs output the full resolution 720/30P HD or upconverted 1080/60i HD signal? This is the main point I'm hung up on. The manual isn't clear. And aside from plug ins and boards that people say they can't afford, I haven't found anybody who can tell me they've done it and how.

And while I appreciate those who do like to spend money buying a ton of programs and plug ins for their own personal projects or hobbyist enjoyment, I am not an editor. Nor am I someone who spends money on purchasing a ton of new gear just to use a camera. In fact, I still find it strange that people buy cameras to pursue their own personal production aspirations. Like you said, the purchase price of the camera is equal to a couple days rental of the Panavised F900. I think most people on this board would jump at the opportunity to shoot one of thier personal projects with the F900. So why did they spend their money on buying a camera that didn't put them anywhere closer to having a HD film inthe can?

I can't very well recommend to a producer that we work with a camera system that isn't going to fit into our currently available workflow. However I'm still always interested in finding great new tools to do my job.

Sorry, I'm getting of topic here...

Definitely let me know what you find following your exhaustive testing. I'm very interested in hearing what the possibilities are. My current search for some answers was sparked by the possibility of working with Heath on a very small personal project that we could use to give his HD10 a test spin. So if and when that happens, I'll have my hands on the rig and can get a better feel for what it is capable of. I'd just like to have a solid understanding of what is possible and the best way to approach it before spending my time.

Jay, I'm not trying to give you or anybody else a hard time.

I am curious to find someone with experience who can share a proven workflow.

Thank you.

Jon, for the moment, on the part of our feature we are supposed to test the workflow of a cinewave or AJA system in the coming weeks with footage from the JVC and from the varicam but it is unclear when these tests will be done since we have other things in priority. I will keep you informed on that. On the other hand, Darren Kelly (the guy who wrote "connected a Sony F900 and a JVC HD10 to waveform monitor and Sony 24" HD monitor and they looked pretty close") was supposed to buy an AJA Kona HD card with converters (AJA brand I suppose). He is a methodical person with a lot of knowledge on the buisness since he has been there since the 70's. Maybe you should email him or something, he is a resourcefull guy. Other than that I know of no other plans to test a high end HD gear for now with the HD10. I can surely tell you that we connected the components output to a JVC 20" HD monitor with component in and it worked perfectly, recognised the signal changes either in upconversion or downconversion instantly.

The HD edit workflow:
1.Connect a firewire board to your computer, and install the drivers.

2.Get your movies from the with the provided capture device.

3.Watch your m2t .ts movies with the VideoLAN player:
http://www.videolan.org/

4.(here comes the tricky part) Demux the clips that you want to keep using HDTVtoMPEG2 1.09.
http://www.midwinter.com/~bcooley/
http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/downloads/hdtvtompeg2.html

5.Start Sonic Foundry Vegas 4.0.

6.Choose File -> Import files/media

7.Choose the right destination, here if you can´t see the files press *.* to see all files.

8. Select the files you want, press ok.

9.Vegas ask for the mainconcept HD codec, and if you registrate the VEGAS software you will get the codec for free. I registrated and restarted VEGAS.

10. You can now edit HD in VEGAS and you can also convert it into DVD and to .avi -files for usage in after effects or combustion.
This way is a pain in the butt, so I would like to recomend Cineform Aspect HD for fast easy editing in Premiere 6.5 and PRO
Here is a link to mainconcept:
http://www.mainconcept.com/index_flash.shtml
GOOD LUCK!!
/j

Interesting stuff!

Jon Fordham, a lot of us can't afford to rent the CineAlta for a couple of days then pay for downconversions. That's where the prices go up. Then again, add on the costs of buying all the gear to edit with the HD10, and the price is probably the same.

heath

Hi Jon,

You're right, there is some misinformation on this board, mostly from people who haven't used the camera. However, it seems to be the best place to get what good info there is.

Unfortunately, I haven't personally tried the HKPF 101 conversion. Someone on the AVS forum who works in the industry has done a succesful transfer to HDCAM, but I don't recall if it was with the Sony converter or another. We have a HDWM2000 sitting in the machine room where we edit, but everything is HD-SDI. And in fact, this is the irony of our test project. We have access to the discreet fire* edit suite which is capable of editing uncompressed HD, but the only way in is SDI. The other problem is that their particular fire* system can only hold 20 min. of HD footage. So we are offlining our project on a $500,000 system using the 480i downconversion we did onto DigiBeta. Our plans are to online with Aspect HD.

A little bit about our project and why we are doing it. As a filmmaker, I have been faced with the reality that just because a project gets financed doesn't mean it's a project worth doing. I have seen many scripts that are worthy of being produced, yet the people peddling them either have no marketing skills or are approaching the wrong people. I shoot alot of film where the crew and I look at each other asking, "why are we here?" with Platinums and all the lenses and cranes and a 40' grip and lighting, etc. The only reason we are there is for the paycheck. Indie filmmakers have always had the cost obstacle in their way of making movies. The f900 has knocked down some of those barriers, but it can still be too expensive for some projects.

Before I ramble too much more, I think we all realize what an exciting time this is as huge advances are made in image aquisition. We're not quite there yet, but soon almost anyone can be a Robert Rodriguez and own cameras and edit a movie in their living room that is of acceptable quality to the masses. Of course talent will weed out the players from the wannabes, but anyone can try to make a movie if they choose.

So our test project is short, it has actors and a story and we finished principal photography last week. For me, it is a vehicle to apply my craft as a cinematographer using the JVC camera. The camera is extremely difficult to use due to it's lack of fully manual exposure controls, the in-camera sound is odd and their are the other typical problems of using a tiny DV camera to make a movie.

Some quick technical tidbits: I use a Sony 8044q or 1354q monitor with 16:9 capability to monitor the 480i downconversion while I am shooting and framing / setting exposure. I use a JVC HV-M260u HiDef 26" monitor for playback of takes. This monitor is no longer manufactured and unfortunately, only accepts 1080i analog. So I cross convert the 720p/30 to 1080/60i in the camera for the playback. I wish I could see the native 720p on playback, but this project is literally a NO-BUDGET deal, so we use what we can get. And yes, the HD analog output is full resolution 720/60p or 1080/60i

Most of the current HD field monitors only accept HD-SDI input, so finding an older analog monitor is important. I suppose you could find a consumer monitor if you liked the image, but it probably wouldn't have SMPTE C phosphors and fine pitch, etc.

I think it's still too early to tell a producer, "Yes, we can do this with this camera and everything will be fine". We still need some more test spins.

Ultimately, when our test project is done, I want to project it using a digital cinema projector in a theatrical venue. Not a consumer or industrial projector but the same 1080p projection you see when watching "Once upon a time in Mexico". Only at that time, if the format doesn't draw attention to itself, will I know what the true story telling potential of this camera is.

Jay

One other thing that I mentioned in another thread, is that I'm doing a shoot in a couple of weeks with the f900 and I'm going to bolt the JVC camera to the top and double shoot. Of course I'll be lighting for the contrast ratio of the Sony, but it will be a comparison of some value. I will just need to get the converter to HD SDI so I can see both images on the fire* system.

Jay,

Don't forget that the HD10 is still close to auto exposure.

heath

Yea, I wish I could forget, but the camera is always reminding me. NDs and exposure lock seems to hold everything where you want it.

Jay

I wish I could afford ND filters.

heath

Just a note about "1080p" projection in theaters. Until just a few months ago there were no projectors capable of displaying a true 2k image (1920x1080 or better). The very newest cinema DLP chips from TI can do it, but I dont think you'll find any of these in any theatre yet. (Unless its being built now, granted this is conjecture). The most common ones out there are going to be 1280x1024. Since registration is a non-issue of course, they appear much crisper than comparable film projection. That is in your local megaplex, not a properly calibrated and maintained 35mm projector. But those dont exist commonly. So anyone whose seen a DLP presentation is looking at essentially the resolution of the JVC Camcorder.

It's true that the 2K chips will be a huge improvement for DLP, but I have always preferred the D-ILA projectors which have been at 2K resolution for some time. Unfortunately, there is only DLP Cinema in Las Vegas right now.

When pictures such as "Attack of the Clones" or "Once upon a time in Mexico" are framed 2.35 with the Cinealta, the resulting image is 810 lines vertical which is a reproduceable number with current D-Cinema. I haven't seen a picture that was framed 1.85, but that would result in 1036 vertical lines, very close to SXGA. And of course, we know that Cinealta produced pictures can't reach 1920 horizontal lines anyway. All of the current Digital Cinema projectors accept SMPTE 292M standards and have much more going for them versus industrial DLP projectors. Things such as 12 ft-L of light output on a cinema sized screen, over 1000 to 1 contrast ratio, and the fact that they have a color gamut matched to film versus a television color scheme are what motivates me to screen our project this way.

<<So anyone whose seen a DLP presentation is looking at essentially the resolution of the JVC Camcorder.>>

WHOA! Charles, hold on a minute. That's like saying if you've seen a DVD then you're looking at the resolution of MiniDV.

While it's true that horizontal resolution specifictions and pixel ratios may be similiar, the image quality can't be assertained by such.

For instance, a DVD that is created from a 1080 Digital Master of a 35mm film originated image is going to look drastically different in terms of image quality and resolved clarity than a DVD that is authored from a 525/60i MiniDV originated image. Both DVD's will have the same resolution once on disc. But just because both DVD's will have the same resolution specs, doesn't mean they're going to look anywhere near the same.

Resolving power of the origination format has nothing to with the resolving power of the screening format.

Allegedly the local theatre near my old house is all digital, at least according to a buddy of mine. I walked into a DLP theatre in L.A. when I was working out there (FINDING NEMO, best movie of the year I've seen--AMERICAN SPLENDOR is next!), and it seemed dark. I hear it's because theatres are cheap with lights in the DLP.

heath

ps-If the local theatre is now all digital, I'll go see ONCE UPON A TIME IN MEXICO and report in TOTEM.

Jon, I was talking about technical details. The JVC camera can absolutely resolve 1280x720 pixels. Thats what the CCD produces. Granted the lenses arent panavision, we're not talking 3 35mm CCD arrays either. The quality of the data in those pixels is a different story ;). My original point was that if you firewire off frames from your JVC and look at them on your computer, when projected by a cinema dlp system will show up exactly (but larger) as you see. If you have higher resolution images than those, the projector is going to interpolate the image down to fit in that resolution (and usually hardware interpolation is pretty poor relativly speaking).

Jay, good to hear about the D-ILA projectors. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that theatre's were only using the DLP products (at least here in California thats all I've ever seen mentioned). Whose projectors has the matched color gamut? That rocks! Now to get one for my home.. :)

According to the "technical details", wouldn't it be more appropriately stated that the recording standard of 720 HD has a pixel aspect ratio of 1280x720? The resolving power of the CCD is a different story.

For instance, in memory card recording mode, the camera can produce 1280x960 images.

The CCD only uses 840,000 effective pixels in HD mode. I think that falls short of filling the entire 1280x720 frame with a 1:1 pixel ratio. But, I may be mistaken. Someone will have to check the math.

We're debating very minute details I know. But clarification is what this thread is all about isn't? Can someone check the math and clarify the "effective pixel count" in relation to the "pixel aspect ratio"?

I just want to be able to shoot good stuff, so I'm in agreement. I wanted Clarification, not scientific specifics. If it looks good, that's all I need. Having some thorough knowledge is good, but I hate being chastised for not knowing EVERY specific, electronic thing about a camera.

heath

Regarding D-ILA:

When Phantom Menace came out and Digital cinema was just getting off the ground, the Hughes-JVC D-ILA was in several venues and there was much debate between which was better, D-ILA or DLP. I saw both and D-ILA seemed to have better detail but DLP had better colorimetry. DLP eventually became the popular system, I don't know if there are any active D-ILAs in any theater.

The color gamut issues were discussed in the early days when the systems were being developed. Cinematographers especially, wanted the same saturations and gamma curves of film and didn't want their work seen on huge "televisions". I believe the electronics that drive the DMD and possibly dichroics is how this is achieved. I once read a technical report from TI about this, but don't recall. I thought all Digital Cinema projectors were this way.

Regarding the JVC camera resolution:

Goto http://www.jvc.com/main.jsp# and click on the GR-HD1 window, then click on "accessories/specifications" then click on "specifications" and it lists the Hor. / Ver. Res. as 700 / 650 lines. This seems really low for this sensor and some of the other modes look low also, although some look correct such as 480p. I couldn't find this info on the JY-HD10u page. I'm not sure what to make of this.

Jay

The number of pixels of a 1280X720 image is 921 600 pixels (it is pretty simple math: 1280 X 720) so indeed, the image sensor of the JVC is not full resolution but in HD, it is much less noticeable than in SD (like the XL1 case). For example the varicam has a 1 000 000 pixel set of 3 CCDs so it covers for the entire definition (even a bit more). As a matter of fact, the signal on the JVC is like an upconversion of a lower (not much lower, like close to 1222X687), so the image is pretty close in terms of definition to 1:1, it is 0,91:1. It is certainly not something you can see as obvious, it is very close to true 1280 by 720 definition.

<<For example the varicam has a 1 000 000 pixel set of 3 CCDs so it covers for the entire definition (even a bit more).>>

Actually (and I know this is being picky and bordering on ridiculous but), according to the specifications listed in my owners manual for the Panasonic aj-HDC27Fp Varicam, the total number of pixels is 1370x744, indeed 1 million (or 1,019,280 to be exact). However the total number of effective pixels on the 2/3" IT CCD's is exactly 1280x720.

OK, I'll stop nit picking now...

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Fordham : <<For example the varicam has a 1 000 000 pixel set of 3 CCDs so it covers for the entire definition (even a bit more).>>

Actually (and I know this is being picky and bordering on ridiculous but), according to the specifications listed in my owners manual for the Panasonic aj-HDC27Fp Varicam, the total number of pixels is 1370x744, indeed 1 million (or 1,019,280 to be exact). However the total number of effective pixels on the 2/3" IT CCD's is exactly 1280x720.

OK, I'll stop nit picking now... -->>>

Jon, you're truly a DIT.

heath