Option 1: I edit HDV clips with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes

Option 2: I edit ProRes clips (captured or transcoded from HDV) with effects and transitions on a ProRes timeline and render out ProRes

Is there a difference in quality on final render out, since the end result is ProRes regardless?

The question is, what is your final output going to? DVD, HD-screencast, film-out, etc.

ProRes does offer higher-quality rendering for filters and effects but you'll only notice them on high-bandwidth HD playback. If you're downcoverting to DVD for example you'll never notice a difference and editing in native HDV is just fine.

I wouldn't recommend transcoding all your HDV media to ProRes. Regardless of how you output, editing HDV with ProRes renders is a more efficient way to get you the same quality results with much less demand for hard drive space and processing power.

I'm going to DVD, but I prefer to approach a project, leaving future possibilities (i.e. Blu-ray) open.

I'm thinking, edit in HDV, then, when it's time go color correct and render out to final, convert just the files that I need to ProRes and swap them.

Yeah you could do that very easily with Media Manager- just manage the final HDV edit and recompress to ProRes. Then you can fire over to Color, etc.

Noah

(directed at original post) I wouldn't think it would matter which way you did it. Either way you're converting to pro res.

Personally, I just capture straight from tape to pro res, saves time and the frustration of editing in HDV.

Ok I thought I was pretty adept with FCS, but suddenly I find myself not knowing things. First, I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it? Second, in all my experiences capturing from tape I've transcoded HDV to ProRes- I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam? What's your process?

Thanks all!

Ok I thought I was pretty adept with FCS, but suddenly I find myself not knowing things. First, I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it? Second, in all my experiences capturing from tape I've transcoded HDV to ProRes- I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam? What's your process?

Thanks all!

Media Manager is at File>Media Manager. Basically it copies all or some of the media used in a sequence to a single folder and project, with some additional options, one of them being the option to convert the footage simultaneously.

Capture Pro Res from HDV (FCP 6 only):

Not sure if your camera is compatible , don't see why it wouldn't be though, set up your project for whatever HDV codec you're using (1080i, 1080p etc.), then go to File>Audio/Video Settings>Capture Preset and select the "HDV-Apple ProRes " codec.

Rewind your tape. Open Log and Capture and a window asking what to name the reel will pop up. Name it then enter. Then It will capture the entire tape, splitting each clip at the start and stop marks on the tape (you will not see any clips in the bin until it is done).
Once it's done you will have all of your HDV clips converted to Pro Rez in your bin. It should be a near real time process, or real time if you have a fast mac.

Two drawbacks- no way to batch capture from the tape and no way to edit to tape this way. Other than that, it's a pretty cool feature.

Two drawbacks- no way to batch capture from the tape and no way to edit to tape this way.

Third drawback: ProRes uses a LOT of drive space, which is ok if you've got lots.

That's the method I use to capture from my JVC ProHD 720P cameras. One thing you SHOULD change in teh capture preset though is the PreRoll number in seconds down to 1 second. If you should encounter a timecode break (not just a start/stop detection), the gap between usable segments becomes set by the PreRoll number. I experimented with my gear and 1 second was as low as I could make it and still have the ballistics on my gear get up to speed in time.

I think there is a 3rd option, which is to capture and edit in HDV then change the sequence settings just before you export. HDV takes up very little space, and if I am editing HDV in a pro res timeline I have to render constantly as opposed to editing in it's native format.
Maybe you don't have this problem, but for me HDV makes sense until I need to export.

I've not worked with Media Manager. Where can I find out more about it?
Ummmm... the user manual? Remember when you bought your copy of FCP2, how it came with all those books? It's in Volume IV: Media Management and Output.

I've never captured straight to ProRes. Is that only possible using a deck, or can you capture ProRes straight from cam?
The codec being captured to -- be it ProRes, DV, Photo-JPEG, whatever -- is inconsequential to the device from which the footage is coming as it is all handled by the machine doing the ingest, which is your computer.

Ummmm... the user manual? Remember when you bought your copy of FCP2, how it came with all those books? It's in Volume IV: Media Management and Output.


The codec being captured to -- be it ProRes, DV, Photo-JPEG, whatever -- is inconsequential to the device from which the footage is coming as it is all handled by the machine doing the ingest, which is your computer.

Most people can't capture in pro res at all (Like me) unless they have a capture card.

As of FCP 6.0.2 you can transcode HDV to ProRes during Firewire capture:

Final*Cut*Pro*6 Release*Notes (http://www.apple.com/support/releasenotes/en/Final_Cut_Pro_6.0_rn/index.html#apple_ref%3Adoc%3Auid%3ATempBookID-ReplacedWhenAssociatingWithMessierRevision-CH1-SW18)

I would assume, though, while capturing ProRes, you are basically skipping the step of having HDV files but still are transcoding from the .m2t on the tape to ProRes (hence the delay), correct? With hard drive space a critical issue, I think I would prefer to work with HDV files and then convert to ProRes before final render -- that way I'm only converting the takes needed. Or perhaps, I don't even need to do that? Is rendering out ProRes from the timeline the same even as converting on capture?

A lot of this is made interesting by the fact I use a FireStore, so I've got the .m2t on my computer, not the tape.

I have had the best results using a workflow that is
editing in HDV and render effects etc. in ProRes,
then outputting to a ProRes self-contained QT movie to be taken into Compressor.
It makes great DVD's with a little tweaking in Compressor (sharpening a smidge
and sometimes dropping the gamma .3 of a point if I want the blacks
more prominent).

Editing in ProRes, as many have said, eats up a ton of drive space.

Sometimes taking the time to do a little testing of different methods
is well worth the results.

As I understand it capturing as Pro Res has the same results as exporting pro res from captured HDV. Do you get time code logged when you capture pro res? If not, considering the drive space it takes up, capturing HDV ain't a bad choice.

I’m always interested in other peoples work flow and David why do you take the edit to a ProRes QuickTime? What edge does this have over going straight to compressor from the edit? I have tried this and many other routes and cant see the difference.

Thanks

I don't know about David, but I like to have a ProRes HQ master of my final piece on hand for archival purposes.

ProRes footage accept color correction much better than HDV.

ProRes needs more space and less CPU to edit. HDV needs less space but more CPU power to edit.

If you have space, capturing HDV directly to ProRes may be the best solution.

That's what I figured, Xavier. Since hard drive space is not a luxury for me, I am capturing HDV as HDV, locking the visual edit down (minus any color correction/etc), then transcoding the clips I need to ProRes HQ. It seems that this is the same as capturing all clips directly to ProRes, because FCP is just transcoding live when capturing.

Hello.

I've been curious. When editors say FC ProRes requires much more disk space, just how much more?

Using this as an example, could you give us some idea. The 48 minute FC HDV project (easy set-up AIC 1080/60) with captured files takes up 44GB.

So how large approximately if captured firewire to ProRes in FC?

Thanks.

Jonathan

When editors say FC ProRes requires much more disk space, just how much more?

See: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1022167-post5.html

Thanks for that Mike.

Downloaded the WP and will read that. I think that just looking at the graph, and I do need to read this, that 1920x1080 29.97 needs either 1.65 or 1.10 GB storage depending on the data rate which I hope the PR-white paper will explain.

So my 48 minute project would go from being 43gb to around 65GB. Sound right?

Jonathan

So my 48 minute project would go from being 43gb to around 65GB. Sound right?
That doesn't sound right to me at all. To start, 48 minutes of HDV should be closer to 13 GB, not 43 GB! 48 minutes of Pro Res 422 (HQ) footage that is 1920x1080 @ 29.97 fps should be in the neighbourhood of 75-80 GB (Pro Res has a variable bitrate so YMMV).

Mike, I think he may be adding up ALL media including render files and media unused in the timeline, which of course means even your estimate is low...

Hey Mike and Shaun,

Actually, I made a slight error.

The 43GB was the size of the Capture scratch folder that had all my clips from this project that were imported from camera using AIC 1080/60.

My project (final timeline in FC) is 48 minutes, BUT the 43GB of Capture scratch contains an hour and five minutes, the total amount of tape that I shot. This does not include render, AS or any other media. Just the Capture folder of this project.

I hope that clears that up a little.

Jonathan

Ok. One other question about Pro Res:

If you import HDV using Pro Res, do you also out put using Pro Res? Or after editing a project in Pro Res, do you go through the usual steps of File>Export Quicktime from FC. (I call this the master), and then from that choose H.264 or whatever for a burn to DVD?

I see the advantage (and disadvantage) of converting to PR on import: easier to work with but takes up a gi-normous amount of disk space.

If you only convert just one time to PR, either on import or on export, does one give a better result over the other?

Jonathan

Ok. One other question about Pro Res:

If you import HDV using Pro Res, do you also out put using Pro Res? Or after editing a project in Pro Res, do you go through the usual steps of File>Export Quicktime from FC. (I call this the master), and then from that choose H.264 or whatever for a burn to DVD?

I see the advantage (and disadvantage) of converting to PR on import: easier to work with but takes up a gi-normous amount of disk space.

If you only convert just one time to PR, either on import or on export, does one give a better result over the other?

Jonathan

If your sequence setting is already pro res, then you can follow the usual steps ("current settings") to exporting your Quicktime "master".
So you would only convert to Pro Res once either on capture or in your sequence settings. It's the same difference.

People have different reasons for using ProRes. Mine: I don't have the luxury of working on a state of the art system, my G5 struggles to edit HDV, but has no problems with ProRes. I'm not sure why the extra space it takes would concern you, considering how cheap 1 tera byte drives have gotten, or even 1.5TB.

Aric.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I think that for me, the main reason I'll start a Pro Rs workflow is getting the maximum quality video out of my little HV30 camcorder. So what ever help that needs....

Pete,

Storage not a problem (yet). I'm wondering. When you say your G5 struggles along with HDV, what exactly is it struggling with? I've been editing HDV (AIC 1080/60) and aside from having to render tiitles, some transitions, I have not really had to much trouble.

The reason I ask is I too am working on a old-ish G5 SP 1.8 set-up.

Aside from the fact that it takes about 20 hours to conform on export.

Jonathan

Sorry about the late reply,
Two reasons for exporting a self-contained Q/T for use in Compressor:

1. I like a self-contained Q/T export to save as a master.

2. It probably works just as well to directly export to Compressor,
but I got in the habit years ago when - for some reason that I never figured out -
I could not directly export from FCP to Compressor, Compressor just would not
open.

all the best,

David

with harddrive space being one of the factors where prices drop since decades, I see no reason NOT to work in ProRes. My first 1 GB SCSI drive in 1989 was 1k$ ! now I get 1 terabyte for 1/10.

Aric.
Pete,

Storage not a problem (yet). I'm wondering. When you say your G5 struggles along with HDV, what exactly is it struggling with? I've been editing HDV (AIC 1080/60) and aside from having to render tiitles, some transitions, I have not really had to much trouble.

The reason I ask is I too am working on a old-ish G5 SP 1.8 set-up.

Aside from the fact that it takes about 20 hours to conform on export.

Jonathan
That's because you are not editing in native HDV, your using AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec).