Then again, Canon doesn't have a pro astronomy division to protect. ;)

Good point.

It's unfortunate that the filmmaker crowd doesn't have the pull with Canon that the astronomer crowd does:

Canon EOS 20Da for the rest of us: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp)

You'd think that if they'd cater to the astrophotography market, they'd be willing to bend a little for filmmakers? Just sayin'.

I still pray for a true hybrid camera someday. A 5D front end with an H1 back end.

But today's Rebel XTi announcement coupled with tone deafness re: the 5D tells me that I'm praying for something that will never materialize.

I'm a huge Canon fan. Have been for a while now. But I find myself looking at the EX3, the HPX300, and the Scarlet a lot lately. The era of the XL is clearly over.

For all we know, Canon may show something at NAB or at least within the next few months.

Fingers crossed.

Seems like it's a copout saying that this camera is a consumer model so therefore it can't really be expected to have certain features that most photographers take for granted . The first dslr I bought was the original rebel and it's more than 50x paid for itself because it did what was expected from a camera - took photos with total control . The 1080/20p fiasco is a conundrum only god can answer but the lack of manual control for video smells of protectionism. Saying it's a consumer model and shouldn't be expected to be able to be controlled plays the same way both directions . Why can you then have control for still photography if it's only a glorified p&s ?

What I dislike is Canon's marketing of the 5D2 video feature giving "professional DOF control" and the like.

On one hand they want to entice video professionals with the amazing tonality of the core image and the look of full-frame DOF, but they pull the rug out by not offering manual control of the basics.

I love the 5D2 despite the obvious knee-capping it has in video mode...but this 20fps thing with the new Rebel is simply absurd.

Is it just me or is this new HD video thing on DSLR's owing to a basic truth about these products--

People have been quite happy with their DSLR's and resolution isn't as sexy as it used to be.

Voila!! HD video...but not pro.

for me It is just another Canon Marketing decision limiting the potentials, for the same price we should have 24p and manual controls. Its just a firmware update. Possible they fear it will hurt video camera sales.

really would like to know how many sales they are loosing due to the lack of 24p or 25p and manual controls.

HD video...but not pro.But Barlow, it's their entry-level, price-leading D-SLR. Is it a reasonable expectation that it should have pro-level HD video? Even on the 5D Mk. II... the video mode on it is a photojournalist's add-on. I don't think they ever intended it to be anything more than that. Some folks are clearly succeeding in using it in professional ways, and I salute 'em for the incredible work I've seen, but I don't think the camera was *made* for that.

The first dslr I bought was the original rebel and it's more than 50x paid for itself because it did what was expected from a camera - took photos with total control .So does this one. The Rebel T1i takes photos with total control.

The 1080/20p fiasco is a conundrum only god can answer...I don't get it -- have you actually downloaded and looked at the 1080 clips from Rob Galbraith's site? I don't see how anyone can call it a "fiasco." Sure, it's not what you want... but it's not a fiasco, far from it. I really don't understand the hand-wringing over this. What Canon have done with the T1i is to provide most of the specs and feature set of the 50D, adding a video mode that meets or exceeds their closest competitor, the Nikon D90, at a price well below $1000. No, it doesn't have pro-level video features, but why would you expect that on an entry-level D-SLR sitting at the bottom of a product line spanning five tiers?

The 20 fps 1080p reminds me of the megapixel wars and I believe will be not used much by consumers or pros. I've looked at all the 1080p clips and on the size screen and viewing distance that 1080p would even make sense, especially with no shutter speed control, the artifacts are just too much.

For consumers shooting handheld soccer games, birthday parties etc, I think they will quickly figure out 720/30p is a much better choice for big screen viewing. And obviously, pros can't use 20fps except as an effect. The lack of effective autofocus in video mode makes it a poor home video cam replacement for consumers and the lack, including the apparent loss of 5D's exposure lock in video, means it's poor choice for pros.

I think they just wanted bragging rights over Nikon - but for either technical (Digic 4 is not fast enough) or protecting video camera market (can you say HV40), 24fps was killed. I will be surprised if 1080p 20fps ends up widely used. On small screens, 15 - 20 fps is okay for throwaway footage, but please don't show me you 20 fps stuff on your 65 incher.

The GH1 is not perfect and we need more footage to judge it, but even with all the existing flaws, a higher price etc. it seems like a totally different and superior class for DSLR video.

Nikon's response will be interesting to see if they are in Canon's world or will step it up.

I told my son about the 20 fps thing.

His first response... "That's back to silent movies."

His second response... "Maybe we'll rent one for fight scenes."

It's a 17% undercrank! :)

And the 5D MkII is a 25% overcrank. Maybe some day they'll give us a camera with normal speed motion....

But I'm waiting to see what happens with the firmware update on the 5DMKII, what Nikon has coming, when Sony decides to jump in and ultimately who is going to be the one to bite the bullet and put all of this stuff inside a camcorder form-factor and sell it to the videography/indie film-side.

im seriously waiting for sony, those genius that came up with the EX1/EX3 will surely have something just as awesome for their DSLR.
I just hope i dont have to wait too long......

It's a 17% undercrank! :)Heh. Smiley noted, but there's been some definite confusion about 20fps. Somebody here had made a "Keystone Cops" reference early in the thread, which I took out of public view due to how misleading it was (and to save that poster some embarrassment). There's a misconception that 20fps somehow means undercrank (for those who don't know, the term refers to a method of creating images that move faster than real time). The mistake here lies in the mistaken conclusion that since it was shot at 20fps, it'll be played back at 24fps (or 30fps, or whatever) and yield sped-up, jerky video. But that's not the way it works... it's played back at the *same* speed in which it was shot. One look at the sample clips on Rob Galbraith's site clearly shows that there's nothing about them that looks remotely like "Keystone Cops." I think a lot of dismissive comments are being made without actually having reviewed any of the 20fps video. It's *not* an undercrank because the playback speed is the same as the acquisition speed... you can't have an undercrank or an overcrank unless there's a difference between the recording and playback speeds. That doesn't apply here, though.

I don't think there's any viable potential for using video from the T1i in a professional situation. I think video from it under any circumstance will be hopeless without a tripod. I think it lacks far too many features to be taken seriously by filmmakers or videographers. But the sample clips seen so far do indeed bear out that there's nothing "jerky" about them, nothing that can honestly be labeled a "fiasco." To my eye it'll be perfectly adequate for whom it's intended: those who are in the market for an entry-level D-SLR well under $1000.

It's a 50D in a plastic Rebel body, and it has an HD video mode that competes with the Nikon D90. That's pretty much all it's meant to be. There's four other levels of D-SLR that are higher up than it is. The video mode is an interesting add-on, but it's no substitute for a camcorder, and I don't think it's reasonable to have expected it to be very much more than what it is.

It's a 50D in a plastic Rebel body, and it has an HD video mode that competes with the Nikon D90. That's pretty much all it's meant to be. There's four other levels of D-SLR that are higher up than it is. The video mode is an interesting add-on, but it's no substitute for a camcorder, and I don't think it's reasonable to have expected it to be very much more than what it is.

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...

Can you believe that Ford didn't put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus? Those idiots don't know what they are doing... Once again their commuter car division didn't communicate with the needs of their race division... They've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

What frustrates me (and I think most others arguing that way) is that on the face of it some basic & useful extras seem entirely possible and voluntarily left out. Why not just 4 frames/sec more and even PAL land would be happy. Why not have exposure and shutter being locked to a setting if desired (costs nothing, because the setting is there it just gets overridden). Seems so little to ask for.

It looks like a deliberate choice to cripple the functionality.


As a 5D2 owner, I feel your frustration!

The 20fps baffles me too if it isn't processing related. Maybe they didnt put 24p into it so all the 5D2 owners wouldn't raise hell. :)

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...hey've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

Actually the car analogy points out the issue well. The video mode is like one of those fake sportcar sidings, spoiler etc. - it's "looks" sporty but is fact an econobox engine and suspension. The video mode in T1i will please nobody at 1080, consumer, prosumer or pro and the 720 mode lacks autofocus, stereo mic and articulating LCD for consumers and 24p, audio input etc. for pros.

All Canon gets is "we have 1080p HD video!" in their marketing blurbs but the video in this model seems a lot like a dealer installed option and not factory engineering.

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...

Can you believe that Ford didn't put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus? Those idiots don't know what they are doing... Once again their commuter car division didn't communicate with the needs of their race division... They've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

Actually, that's not very accurate.

We know that it can do 1080p20 and 720p30. We also know they can scan their chips at 1080p30 (5DmkII) Whether this is due to the Digic IV processor or not I do not know. Regardless of that we do know there are many chips on the market with lesser specs that can scan at 1080p30

I'm guessing that this chip is perfectly capable of 1080p30, 1080p24, 720p30, 720p24, etc...

That being said, a more apt analogy would be a speed limiter on an engine. Some cars can easily reach speeds of 120 mph, yet limiters keep the car below 95mph. This is more or less due to driver safety concerns.

Since there are no human lives are at stake, the only logical conclusion is the protection of the companies bottom line.

The camera is capable, but Canon has implemented a limiter. In my opinion they've done it deliberately.

I don't think any amount of complaints by customers is going to change that.

I'm guessing they will open up the manual controls (to some degree) on the 5DmkII in the near future to keep a certain demographic of people (i.e. us) from purchasing this Rebel T1i instead.

...Canon has implemented a limiter. In my opinion they've done it deliberately.When have they ever *not* done that? When have they ever *not* stratified their product line. Why does this come as such a surprise to some folks -- how is this any different from their previous history, or that of any major Japanese electronics manufacturer, for that matter?

And Dylan's analogy is indeed perfectly accurate. We know Ford can put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus. Their decision not to do so was deliberate. Some people are outraged by how badly Ford has misread the market... others never expected such a thing to happen in the first place. It applies here equally well.

It's *not* an undercrank because the playback speed is the same as the acquisition speed... you can't have an undercrank or an overcrank unless there's a difference between the recording and playback speeds. That doesn't apply here, though.That's really up to the editor, not the camera.

I'm producing a video for the music store where my daughter works. Vimeo is the intended target. It's all shot at 30p, but I'm stretching it to 24p to avoid dropped frames. Since the video shows the store and the instruments, rather than people/dialog, it looks perfectly natural.

If I had shot this with the T1i, I'd have the option of speeding up to 24fps, or just leaving it at 20fps. Vimeo should handle both just fine.

However, if I were shooting Ninja moves in a low budget action film, I'd definitely speed it up to 24fps. I'd do the same with the HVX or Scarlet. Nobody really believes that Jackie Chan is as fast as he looks in on the screen, do they? :)

When have they ever *not* done that? When have they ever *not* stratified their product line. Why does this come as such a surprise to some folks -- how is this any different from their previous history, or that of any major Japanese electronics manufacturer, for that matter?

I'm not surprised. Just making a bit of a rhetorical point to elaborate my limiter analogy.

I have a tendency to ramble...

That's really up to the editor, not the camera.Ah so... back in the old days, it certainly *was* up to the camera (camera operator, that is). That's where the term comes from, after all! But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of this camera's buyers are not going to edit their video, just like they're not editing the video from their consumer camcorders. At least not to the point of speed ramping anyway...

...But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of this camera's buyers are not going to edit their video, just like they're not editing the video from their consumer camcorders. At least not to the point of speed ramping anyway...They definitely won't be doing speed ramping, but lots of people edit these days - especially since the CF card won't plug into their DVD players.

On the other hand, once they see the slow decodes of the native MOV files (not knowing about Cineform), they might not try to edit twice! Actually, the second soccer game they shoot will probably be in 720 if not 480 for exactly that reason. And then 20fps is moot.

...the CF card...Actually on the Rebel T1i it's an SDHC card. Worth pointing out only because my Blu-Ray player, the very common Panasonic BD-35, includes an SDHC card slot (as does the PlayStation 3, etc.). The BD-35 will play back AVCHD video from any Canon or Panasonic AVCHD camcorder, but that's not what the Rebel T1i is. So it remains to be seen if there's any easy way to play back its video from anything other than the camera's own HDMI output. Is there a living room appliance that will playback an H.264 QuickTime .MOV from an SDHC card?

And then 20fps is moot.

actually I think 20fps renders 1080 in this camera moot by itself.

I'm very surprised they went for 20fps in 1080, I mean at that point why even offer 1080 at all? The only thing I can think of it that its targeted toward consumers who don't know anything about 20fps vs 24fps, but who will see the 1080 and think thats an automatic step up from the 720 that Nikon offers.

What I don't understand is the people who seem angry cause this camera isn't a cheaper 5D. Of course they aren't going to undercut their hot selling 5D by loading this thing up with all the "missing" features of the 5D's video mode. If you ever for one second thought they would you've been deluding yourself.

They've positioned it on par with or slightly better than (depending on how you look at it) the D90 and significantly under the 5D. Seems about right to me.

I'm very surprised they went for 20fps in 1080, I mean at that point why even offer 1080 at all? Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

Is there a living room appliance that will playback an H.264 QuickTime .MOV from an SDHC card?

The Western Digital WDTV may be able to play back these files. I hooked up a simple USB multi-card reader with a CF card from a 5DmkII and it was able to play back the files ...sort of.

It was stuttering and appeared to be choking on the bitrate a little.

What is the bitrate of the T1i files? Is it less than the .MOV files from the 5DmkII?

Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

I have actually and 20fps looks like, well, 20fps. It's completely non-standard unless your standard is turn of the century silent films. Still seems like a very odd choice and at least and in my mind disqualifies this camera's 1080 mode from serious consideration.

Come on Chris, you'd really go to war with a 20fps mode?

To clarify, I've never expected this camera to be the 5D in a smaller package, and if it does 720 well then that would make sense to me for the price point.

And Dylan's analogy is indeed perfectly accurate. We know Ford can put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus.

No, I don't think his analogy is accurate at all - it's more than they've put the Ford Focus engine in a Smart Car and are marketing it as a twin turbo (1080p!).

Here's the way it went for me. I see the press release - 1080p video! Read the release - 20fps. Hmm, that must be a typo. Go watch clips, research online. No, it's really 20fps. Plus, the most of the clips are misleading - very static motion clips on tripod. Look at the one handheld clip on Gizmodo - that's just ugly. And wait for some handheld soccer game clips.

The truth is the T1i can only do 720p video and Nikon's "24p, same rate as professional film" is sexier marketing than 30p. So Canon put this 20fps mode mostly (if not entirely) for marketing and product positioning. It's certainly not on the camera to benefit any type of end user. Regardless of screen size, people will choose 720p over 1080p on this camera (except those people who want the same bragging rights).

Some people objected to my first car analogy. There were a few things off about it, so I'm going to rev it up so that it is a PERFECT representation of exactly what's going on here, and will be obvious to everyone but the most obtuse.

First, I'm going to switch from the Ford Focus to the Ford Mustang, because the Rebel really is the Mustang of cameras... very good performance (relative the glut of P&S cameras/Focuses/Camrys) for a very decent price (compared to "pro" slrs/Ferraris/Porsches).

SO...
What we have here is a Ford Mustang.... and Ford has decided to load it up with the engine of the Ford GT (the 550 Supercharged V8 form the GT = 15mp sensor of the 50d)! That's a hell of a lot of car for the buck, no one would disagree! They throw in the brakes, steering, suspension, etc... for the same price. Sure, a few features like the carbon fibre and ground effects are missing, but they do still need to sell GT's, right?

And even better... They keep it the same price as the old Mustang! Wow, all that for the same price? A year ago you'd have to pay multiple times the price for the same thing by buying the GT (or a 50D).

And then... Ford says... "Its time for an evolution! Lets see if we can make this a flying car... FOR THE SAME PRICE!" (in case you miss it, flying car = a platform leap across the still photo SLR to the HD full frame sensor video market - you know, like RED charges $20k for?)

So Ford somehow manages to make that 550hp V8 pump out 10,000lbs of thrust and has two flight modes... 720mph and 1080mph. The 720mph is clean and smooth, but the 1080mph mode has turbulence about 1/3rd of the time. But there's one big catch... You can only fly in AUTOPILOT mode... no full manual flying controls. You tweak it, set your destination, and push GO, then you sit back and just keep it pointed in the right direction... it takes care of the rest.

So... You get a 550hp, Mustang WITH FLIGHT MODE for the price of a normal V6 Mustang...

And all you can do is complain about the lack of full manual flight controls and some turbulence at 1080mph?!?!?!?!

A year ago, half the people on this forum would have killed for a APS-C 720p video camera without hesitation... and never would have believed the price tag of $800.

oh well , let's hope the Russians can come up with a fix ! Instead of the 1080 , Canon should have implemented a very good 720/30/24/25p ......and put on the articulating lcd!

My analogy is perfect,

I agree - it's perfect if you are talking about the still capabilities of the Rebel - it's a market leader for DSLR still photos.

The video however, is no Mustang. Plenty of P&S digicams at 50% or less of the cost have better video now than the Rebel including slow motion, various frame rates, more controls etc. I mean Canon's own PowerShot SX1 does 1080 30fps.

What I would like to point out is Canon has now brought out a DSLR at both the highend (5D2) and lowend (T1i) with FF 35mm and APS-C sensors and some very nice video capability. In addition we have seen another Japanese company (Panasonic) add some very nice video capability to their u4/3rds product line. How much longer can they keep these big fat sensors with their magnificent low light sensitivity and DOF characteristics so many of you have been drooling over out of the professional video market?

I would say not a whole lot longer.

Looking forward to NAB 2009 announcements.

I agree - it's perfect if you are talking about the still capabilities of the Rebel - it's a market leader for DSLR still photos.

The video however, is no Mustang. Plenty of P&S digicams at 50% or less of the cost have better video now than the Rebel including slow motion, various frame rates, more controls etc. I mean Canon's own PowerShot SX1 does 1080 30fps.


"Better video" doesn't mean slowmo and variable frame rates, those are just features. I'd consider an APS-C sensor capable of clean high ISO video at 720p better than a small 1/2.3" sensor that can shoot 1080 30fps. Big sensor + interchangable lenses = win. Otherwise, people would buy the SX1 instead of the 5D markII, right?

But Barlow, it's their entry-level, price-leading D-SLR. Is it a reasonable expectation that it should have pro-level HD video? Even on the 5D Mk. II... the video mode on it is a photojournalist's add-on. I don't think they ever intended it to be anything more than that. Some folks are clearly succeeding in using it in professional ways, and I salute 'em for the incredible work I've seen, but I don't think the camera was *made* for that.

I definitely see the photojournalist angle about the 5D2, but even those guys would likely want some basic control over the image...if only for consistency and predictability from shot to shot. Those guys understand shutter, ISO and aperture. Why wouldn't that matter to them in video mode?

I guess when I say "pro video" I don't really mean feature rich or true pro video ergonomics...just basic, predictable, manual image control. When I said "HD video...but not pro", it might be better phrased as "HD video...no control".

I'm not outraged like others are because I've always been one of those folks who tries to exploit the strengths of a product and not gripe about its shortcomings too much. I take what's given and run with it.

The 5D2 is simply incredible video, (horrible rolling shutter, one frame rate and aliasing/moire' notwithstanding) but just not easy to get consistent results. And I'm sure that was Canon's intent, in order to tip-toe around various internal and external issues.

I understand Canon and all the other manufacturer's product stratification model; it's rational and sound business strategy, but misleading marketing (particularly with the 5D2) is another story.

But come on...1080/20p? The mind boggles.

"Better video" doesn't mean slowmo and variable frame rates, those are just features.

If you care about video image quality (large sensor, interchangeble lenses etc,) then 20fps is nearly a deal killer and 24p is probably more appealing than 30p for true shallow DOF film look, so D90 wins. All Canon has really is a better codec.

I'm a Pentax K10d user right now, so I still waiting before pulling the DSLR upgrade trigger, but the GH1 looks like the smart choice right now. But Nikon, Pentax etc. might surprise as well.

Come on Chris, you'd really go to war with a 20fps mode? Noooooo... that's not what I'm saying at all.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not saying 20fps is acceptable for us under any circumstance (it isn't). I'm proposing that the majority of folks out there who buy this thing will be happy to have 1080 video at any frame rate. For a significant percentage of them, this will be their first way to record 1080 video. A big chunk of the Rebel's market probably does not own an HD camcorder and has no plans to buy one.

What I'm objecting to, though, is this ludicrous notion that 1080 at 20fps is somehow a "fiasco" or "suicide" or "not worth offering." How utterly over the top can you get? From the standpoint of the average consumer, sure it's worth offering; one look at the sample clips bears that out. No it's not perfect, and no it's not something you or I would use. But geez... there should be shades of gray here instead of black and white. There will be thousands of customers who are going to be thrilled with this camera's HD video feature, even in 1080 at 20fps, and there will be thousands of customers who probably won't even care about it. But of course it's worth offering.

Look at the one handheld clip on Gizmodo - that's just ugly.I've seen just as ugly handheld from the 5D2 though.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole "video on a D-SLR" concept would benefit from having some kind of lock-out mode where you can't toggle video unless the camera is mounted on sticks. In my opinion that would do everybody a favor.

There will be thousands of customers who are going to be thrilled with this camera's HD video feature, even in 1080 at 20fps, and there will be thousands of customers who probably won't even care about it. But of course it's worth offering.

Thrilled? That's pretty strong. Maybe "excited" when they see the specs but unlikely when they see it on their TV. First, most people don't have setups and viewing distances that resolved 720p vs 1080p but only the most nearly blind people cannot tell 30fps from 20fps. So they may get all excited about 1080p - until they shoot it and decide 720p at 30fps results in much more pleasing video. 90% of that market will shoot handheld and the 1080p handheld clip I watched on fullscreen 17" laptop was really unpleasant with the jerks and stutters with the rolling shutter to boot.

So that means the 20fps 1080p is primarily for Canon to market that feature, not because people will be "thrilled" with it's quality.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole "video on a D-SLR" concept would benefit from having some kind of lock-out mode where you can't toggle video unless the camera is mounted on sticks. In my opinion that would do everybody a favor.

I replied before your edit. Now that is very valid point. I've yet to see D-SLR video that works well handheld because of rolling shutter. The GH1 might do it but I've not seen any real native clips yet for us to tell.

From my IMAX work on my project, screen size greatly amplifies screen and motion artifacts. To pull off handheld without making people physically ill (which happened to a filmmaker in Austin who projected his handheld doc onto an IMAX screen) is very difficult and you are best served on sticks, dolly etc. I think this first company that pulls off either very fast rolling shutter or global shutter on CMOS DSLR or video-only camera has a major advantage.

But come on...1080/20p? The mind boggles.For a number of years, the video mode in the little PowerShot Elph gave you two choices, 320/30p and 480/15p. Everyone I knew who owned a PowerShot -- and these were all video people -- chose to shoot video in VGA at 15fps rather than QVGA at 30fps. I'm not saying that justifies putting 20fps on an HD frame size, but knowing that history might provide some insight as to why they went that way.

For a number of years, the video mode in the little PowerShot Elph gave you two choices, 320/30p and 480/15p.

Screen size - what we tolerate on an a small laptop window is very different from a 60" Plasma.

If you care about video image quality (large sensor, interchangeble lenses etc,) then 20fps is nearly a deal killer and 24p is probably more appealing than 30p for true shallow DOF film look, so D90 wins. All Canon has really is a better codec.


You seem to keep ignoring the 720-30p mode... The D90 is 720p as well. So basically, this Rebel is the same as the D90, except it's 30fps, but ALSO has a 1080 mode (albeit weird) AND it's cheaper?

ANd for me, 20fps isn't a personal deal killer, I shot my last short film on a Canon 1D mkII at 8fps.

You seem to keep ignoring the 720-30p mode...

I'm not, I'm just saying 720/30p is old news now and it's good it's cheaper than D90 as 24p is a big deal. Converting 30p to 24p can be done in Compressor or AE but it's a pain.

I think the bottom line is that the video in this model is disappointing to most compared to what other cameras offer given this is Canon's second model with video. I think Nikon et. al. response will show this and the GH1 already does.

I think the bottom line is that the video in this model is disappointing to most compared to what other cameras offer given this is Canon's second model with video. I think Nikon et. al. response will show this and the GH1 already does.

This model is only disappointing to those with unrealistic expectations and an unfamilliarity with consumer wants/needs. Everyone on these video forums is biased against it because they want/expect pro features on an entry level DSLR... At this early stage in the game, that's ridiculous. It's a soccer mom SLR made with soccer mom features... no one besides our tiny sliver of the market even knows or cares what 24p is... plus, 30p is a better format for your average shooter anyway. This is a home use camera, not a digital cinematography machine.

Canon is going to sell a billion of these regardless of what haters on internet forums think.

Canon is going to sell a billion of these regardless of what people on the internet think.

Canon Rebels always sell well, nobody's arguing that. I'm not arguing that it won't sell well - the 1080p 20fps is actually very smart marketing and why I argue it was included and will sell well. My point is about who will be happy with it or thrilled with it or love it after using it - some may tolerate but hardly anyone is going to love it.

Especially if Nikon's etc. new models offer better. The success of the HV20/30/40 points to a camera that serves the consumer and prosumer well - those models have done so well despite some quirks for pro use - I have a pimped HV30. But the T1i is no HV series yet.

Screen size - what we tolerate on an a small laptop window is very different from a 60" Plasma.Well no, in those days playback from my Elph was cabled into a 31" CRT in the living room. It was always much better to fill the screen at 15fps than to use only a quarter of it at 30fps.

Thrilled? That's pretty strong. Maybe "excited" when they see the specs but unlikely when they see it on their TV.They'll be excited when they see it on their TV. It's a two-megapixel image twenty times per second. They'll be quite happy with it. That is, if they shoot properly (always the real trick no matter what).

... only the most nearly blind people cannot tell 30fps from 20fps. So they may get all excited about 1080p - until they shoot it and decide 720p at 30fps results in much more pleasing video. You're right in that it's easy to tell 30fps from 20fps, but 20fps isn't anymore "unwatchable" than 24fps is (the most badly used frame rate ever -- not by filmmakers, of course, but by Joe Average -- to shoot in 24p should require passing a practical exam). 20fps certainly isn't great; but done with care it'll probably be no less tolerable than 24p (done without care and it'll be just as bad as 24p). The trouble, obviously, will be getting people to do video with care, no matter what the frame rate is.

I think there will be some folks with 1080 sets who will choose to shoot video with this camera in 720, and some folks with 1080 sets who will choose to shoot in 1080. It's not going to go all one way or all the other.

90% of that market will shoot handheld and the 1080p handheld clip I watched on fullscreen 17" laptop was really unpleasant with the jerks and stutters with the rolling shutter to boot.I thought the handheld clip from Gizmodo was no more annoying than any other handheld samples I've seen, but I'm not getting any jerks or stutters from it or from Rob Galbraith's clips. This is with the latest version of QuickTime from a 2.5GHz quad-core Intel with 4GB of RAM and a 256MB video card and a 22" HD display at full screen. Not exactly a spectacular system. My laptop is a 2.2GHz dual-core Intel with 3GB of RAM and a 128MB video card, and it will not drive 1080 video, unfortunately, without a lot of stutter (edit: I mean *this* 1080; my laptop can handle 1080 AVCHD up to 17mbps or so).

Comparing the same angles Galbraith took of Grand Central Station and 42nd Street at both 720 and 1080, yes, I can clearly see the difference in frame rate but no it's not what I would dismiss as unusable, not by a long shot...

Comparing the same angles Galbraith took of Grand Central Station and 42nd Street at both 720 and 1080, yes, I can clearly see the difference in frame rate but no it's not what I would dismiss as unusable, not by a long shot...

Ahh, somehow I missed these Galbraith shots earlier today. Now these look much better than the other stuff I've seen. Better than anything I've gotten out of my D90 (at 720) but I still don't really like the 20fps.

Anyone want to buy a lightly used D90? I'm willing to give up the 24p for a better codec. I'm about sick of having almost good footage out of my little D90 but having it held back by an iffy codec and or bitrate whichever is the culprit. I do however like the way the D90 handles highlights and color... maybe someone can cross breed a Canon and Nikon?

Ahh, somehow I missed these Galbraith shots earlier today. Now these look much better than the other stuff I've seen. Well, sure they're just locked-down shots, but a lot of what you see there is Galbraith. Here's what I propose: a side-by-side D-SLR video shoot-out, a Rebel T1i at 1080p20, a second Rebel T1i at 720p30, a Nikon D90 at 720p24, and a 5D Mk. II at 1080p30. Identical settings as much as auto will allow, pointed at the same shot. I think that would be interesting. Wait until June to do this and throw in the GH1.

Here's what I propose: a side-by-side D-SLR video shoot-out, a Rebel T1i at 1080p20, a second Rebel T1i at 720p30, a Nikon D90 at 720p24, and a 5D Mk. II at 1080p30. Identical settings as much as auto will allow, pointed at the same shot. I think that would be interesting. Wait until June to do this and throw in the GH1.
I'd PAY to see results from that shoot-out. Great suggestion, sir.

Having an articulating screen on an HD capable interchangeable lens camera is a huge benefit. In many concerts its best to have a camera that has excellent lowlight capabilities and holding a Z1u on top of your head for a long time because of people in front of you can be a little bit difficult. I would much rather prefer doing that with a GH1.

Anyway there is a workaround that you can use for the T1i and the 5D Mark II. You may or may not think it’s the best solution but you got to admit it’s still a good idea nonetheless, as long as you don’t cause any accidents.
View Category (http://www.myvu.com/Myvu-Crystal-C24.aspx)

Nathan, I agree with everything you said. I'd even push what you said a little further. I think we're right around the corner from a camera that will be even more significant than the VX1000. A cam that levels the playing field for a long time. Tapeless. Shallow DOF. Over and under cranking. Exposure control--all for a reasonable price. I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting. I say a year-and-a-half and we'll have it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not saying 20fps is acceptable for us under any circumstance (it isn't). I'm proposing that the majority of folks out there who buy this thing will be happy to have 1080 video at any frame rate. For a significant percentage of them, this will be their first way to record 1080 video. A big chunk of the Rebel's market probably does not own an HD camcorder and has no plans to buy one.

I don't know about that. A significant percentage (that will use the video feature at all) may well have an HV10/20/30 or one of the many Sony HDV flavors already. These things have been on the market for three years now. When they pull 1080/20p off this thing and try to stick it into iMovie or Pinnacle, it's not going to be pretty.

Nathan, I agree with everything you said. I'd even push what you said a little further. I think we're right around the corner from a camera that will be even more significant than the VX1000. A cam that levels the playing field for a long time. Tapeless. Shallow DOF. Over and under cranking. Exposure control--all for a reasonable price. I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting. I say a year-and-a-half and we'll have it.

You're going to wait for a year and a half? that's like... forever!


I don't know about that. A significant percentage (that will use the video feature at all) may well have an HV10/20/30 or one of the many Sony HDV flavors already. These things have been on the market for three years now. When they pull 1080/20p off this thing and try to stick it into iMovie or Pinnacle, it's not going to be pretty.

If I can be of assistance... the footage from my 5Dmark2 makes the footage from my HV20, HVX200, and HD100 look like shit. No question. It's no stretch that the Rebel's video will look very, very similar to the 5D2's. I think the actual image quality will make up for the lack of temporal resolution in 1080.

Most importantly, this is going to save people having both a SLR and a camcorder, which to most people is more imporant than having 24p/30p (since your average soccer mom doesn't know/care what that is, and just wants to be able to take some video clips of her kids to show the grandparents).

I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting. If you're waiting, you're not creating.

The single worst excuse for sitting on the sidelines is "the cameras aren't good enough yet." That's complete nonsense, of course. It's a horrible mentality. We're currently living among an embarrassment of riches with regard to the quality and sheer affordability of digital media content creation... we've been there for several years now.

So much remarkable material has been created with "lesser" equipment and technology that came before. The limitlessness and the limitations don't come from the gear or the technology... they come from the people who are using it. Anyone who says they can't use what's available right now isn't ever going to be able to use anything.

The "right camera" is the one that works, the one you can get your hands on right now this minute.

Not picking on anyone in particular here... this attitude that "the gear isn't good enough yet" is a mental block, a self-imposed barrier to creativity and free expression that affects a lot of people. I don't know of any cure, I just try to tackle it with tough love. Get off your ass and start shooting. Walk away from this web site, pick up a cheap $200 digicam and go outdoors and make photographs and little movies.

If I can be of assistance... the footage from my 5Dmark2 makes the footage from my HV20, HVX200, and HD100 look like shit. No question. It's no stretch that the Rebel's video will look very, very similar to the 5D2's. I think the actual image quality will make up for the lack of temporal resolution in 1080.

My bad. I meant the programs will choke on the non standard 20p video, not the quality of the video itself.