Isn't it about time for the Canon XL-H2 to come out? Any ideas on if it will be tapeless? Bob

The most recent change to the XL line was the introduction of the XL H1A and XL H1S, and that wasn't even one year ago. If you look at the history of the product line, I think you can conclude that based on the established timeline of changes to the XL series, it isn't quite the right time for anything new just yet... but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Previous to-market dates of XL series camcorders:

XL1 -- February 1998
XL1S -- July 2001
XL2 -- August 2004
XL H1 -- November 2005
XL H1S -- May 2008
XL H1A -- June 2008

Source: the Canon Camera Museum
Canon Camera Museum | Camera Hall - Digital Camcorders (http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/dvc/chrono_1997-2001.html)

It's quite possible to look at those dates and conclude that a replacement for the XL H1 might be imminent. The gap between the XL2 and the XL-H1 wasn't much more than a year.

The XL2 was basically a 16:9 XL1 so not a great leap forward (I know I'm simplifying there!). The fact that the H1S + A aren't radical updates perhaps makes it more likely that something will appear sooner rather than later.

Red are moving forward, Sony are moving forward, Canon are well placed to move forward, so my guess is that we will see a replacement by 2010 at the latest. It will feature CMOS, tapeless, variable frame rates. Hopefully it will also include a choice of capture rates (25, 50 + 100 Mbps), top quality EVF, ND filters built in to body etc.

... and a bigger chip (ccd or cmos) with a high pixel count that do not render the current XL lenses obsolete (using the center part of the sensor only, greater dept of field for some applications) and at the same time allow the use of EOS lenses without to much magnification. Kind of 5D Mark II optimised for video with backward compatibility in mind.

Chris I'm going to respectfully propose that the 3 year product upgrade should no longer be quoted. While history is a great indicator of upgrades, with technology developing faster we really should hold camera manufacturer's to a higher standard. While 10 years ago (or even 15 if you go back to L-1 series) a 3 year upgrade path would have been acceptable, technology is advancing so much now that having a 3 year cycle of upgrades will leave canon behind. Again I'm in no way questioning your presentation of the facts or the history fo the upgrade cycle but as someone who has owned a canon camera (of some sort) for the past 8 years (holy crap I can't believe it's been that long) I think we need to expect/ask more of this company.

The h1 (in my opinion) was a revolutionary camera 3 years ago- the quality and the technology it brought to the consumer market was amazing (in fact with the addition of an hd-sdi port it may have priced it outside of the class they were going for) but unfortunately I think though canon has little interest in keeping the xl series alive perhaps we should just continue to push them to develop the 5d- product line into something that h1 almost was.

I agree with you in principle, Nick, but practicality is another question... in my own personal estimation, I believe that Canon Inc. (in Japan) is a *very* conservative corporation. It's like a large ocean liner cruising the seas at full power... it has incredible momentum propelling it forward, but getting it to make a sharp turn is nearly impossible...

As far as the 5D Mk. II chip and the XL line, I think they're mutually exclusive. That image sensor has an area larger than the XL lens mount can cover. Just like everyone else here, I'd love to see Canon Inc. make a dedicated HD camcorder built around that chip, but unless I'm missing something regarding the laws of physics, I don't see how it could possibly be an XL series camera.

XL is a 1/3rd-inch lens mount... if it's not 1/3rd-inch, then it can't be XL.

Canon is usually that last one to come out with any new product or they simply follow a trend. Since Panasonic came out with P2 and JVC and Sony were using HDV, Canon went with the format that they thought people were using (HDV Tape).

Now that memory prices, especially SDHC cards have fallen so low, they may want to reconsider their capture process. Hell, Canon is developing a new lens for JVC's new camera, why not also use Sony's XDCAM EX codec and shoot to SDHC.

People will flock to the cheaper media any day of the week.

It can be very frustrating at times trying to figure out what Canon's plans are. And they're tighter than a drum, they leak NOTHING.

Chris, the problem is I think we DO agree in practicality, all of the reasons you've stated are exactly why I fear that the xl line will end with h1s. I think they will continue to develop the lower end line and high end glass, but I think we've seen the last of the three year update- I hope I'm wrong but to me it seems the writing is on the wall.

I'd appreciate it if Canon decided to go with a robust codec like Panasonic's AVCCAM that can record to SDHC cards but is actually better at compressing datas than "older" Mpeg2 codecs like XDCAM EX. Mpeg4 codecs are the future, if they ever develop a new Canon XL-H2, I sure hope they follow Panasonic's footsteps and embrace AVCHD!

As for 1/3" chip CCDs, I hope they keep 'em, that's what the XL line is all about. I don't know about you guys, but I really have no love for the rolling shutter effects of Sony's EX series or Panasonic's HPX300. Yeah, CCD has less light sensitivity, but it's not a problem for me. I keep my fingers crossed that Canon will not embrace the CMOS trend and will keep developping better CCDs!

Some of us are hoping for a Full Frame camera. But we're not holding our breath.

As far as the XL series goes I'm not sure what Canon will do. For a while there Sony was sucking up all the oxygen and all the talk had been about 1/2" chips. I'm sure Canon was feeling the pressure to respond.

But that brings up a good question: Does changing the chip size necessitate a lens and lens mount redesign? If so, does that mean it's no longer an XL series camera?

However, does Panasonic's decision to continue to support 1/3" chips with the HPX300 give Canon additional life support for the XL series? Does Panansonic's pricing of the HXP300 force Canon to build a more robust/pro-line version of the XL? Or does Canon continue with the form factor, but at much more competitive price?

Well, with JVC's new HM700 with 1/3" CCD coming out soon with either a Fujinon or Canon lens,why wouldn't Canon continue in this vein? 2 competitors out of 3 go with 1/3", so if, like Chris said, Canon's a pretty conservative company (which I also assume), they'll stick to 1/3" and their XL line. Why waste money upgrading to 1/2 or 2/3" sensors in the price bracket the XL-series is supposed to sit if it means designing new lenses? Of course, with 2/3" sensors, they wouldn't have to since lots of Canon broadcast lenses are already out there and they'd only need to design a new body. but that would raise the price tag by a fair margin.

If I were Canon, I'd either :
1.create a new 2/3" body with CCDs (which would cost lots of R&D) OR
2.keep the XL line and 1/3" CCDs and instead enter a partnership with either Letus Corp. or Cinevate to create a special 1/3" relay lens. Lovers of small DoF like me could fit it onto other competitor's 1/3" camcorders and DoF adapters as well. Both companies know their trade and got the means to do it, so why not try something different? I know, Canon's conservative, that's why ;-)

I know I'd buy one for sure though!

What do you guys think?

If Canon does stick with 1/3" sensors then they need to step up the ergonomic design of the camera body significantly in order to compete directly with the HPX300. Otherwise they'll have to drop the price a lot.

Otherwise Canon has to shoe-horn in some 1/2" chips, keep the price, and compete head to head with the EX3. If they do that then they'll need to modify the lens/mount and it's suddenly no longer an XL class camera.

Or build a brand new camera class, a ZL camera, that has a single Full Frame chip and 2K backend data-centric back end. Which is what I would really like to have. But I recognize that filmmakers represent only a small fraction of Canon's base.

I think Canon will stick with 1/3". Sony may have upped the game to 1/2" but both Panasonic and JVC stich with 1/3" so I see no reason for Canon to abandon it. Eventually, they will go full-frame but I doubt the time is right for that. So I think bringing out one more 1/3" camera with a good manual control lens, good LCD and better ergonomics will be the best move for them at this moment. In a year or 3 - 4 they can come out with a proper full-frame camera. I do hope that they will announce something at NAB.

You might want to look at this possible Canon HD offering from the rumor mill:

link removed

I think Canon will stick with 1/3". Sony may have upped the game to 1/2" but both Panasonic and JVC stich with 1/3" so I see no reason for Canon to abandon it. Eventually, they will go full-frame but I doubt the time is right for that. So I think bringing out one more 1/3" camera with a good manual control lens, good LCD and better ergonomics will be the best move for them at this moment. In a year or 3 - 4 they can come out with a proper full-frame camera. I do hope that they will announce something at NAB.

I agree and I disagree.

I agree that Canon could very well stick with 1/3" chips. However, Panasonic completely changed the game with the HPX300. If Canon insists on sticking with the XL form factor then they absolutely must dramatically cut the price. Because I don't know of anyone who will buy an $8000 1/3" semi-pro chainsaw when they can spend the same money on a professional form factor camera like the HPX.

I do agree that it's doubtful Canon will introduce a Full Frame HD camera right now. But if they wait 3-4 years then they might as well just close their high-end video division and call it quits. By then RED will be on to their third and fourth generation cameras and Canon won't have anything left to offer.

Just my opinion.

You might want to look at this possible Canon HD offering from the rumor mill:

It's just a rumor. The article doesn't even mention if the rumor comes from within Canon or not. As far as I know they could've just been reading DVi and read the tea leaves no different than any of us in here do.

If the rumor is true then what size is an APC-C chip? Is it 35mm? S35mm?

Well, I answered my own question. It appears that standard academy 35mm 4-perf motion picture film measures roughly 22mm x 16mm. Super 35mm is 24.9 x 18.7mm.

Canon's version of APS-C CMOS sensors measure roughly 22.2mm x 14.8mm.

So it's almost a direct match with 4-perf, just a little shorter. Which is fine considering that the camera would be recording a less-tall 16x9 aspect ratio.

All i can say is I've been asking for this camera for years now, resigned myself to the thought that Canon doesn't care about taking over that market and bought a mark ii on friday, today I read this...

On this site, "rumors" are strictly relegated to Area 51. I won't allow such links
elsewhere on the forum because they pollute the flow of real, solid information.

While it does totally bum me out to not talk up the rumor anymore I understand and agree with chris' policy. So I will continue with our previous ideas. I wonder if canon could keep the xl series alive by releasing a 35mm CMOS cam that includes an adapter for xl series lenses that only turns on the middle 1/3 inch of the sensor. Of course they would need an absurdly high resolution sensor to pull it off something like a 21 megapixel or something. On the other hand it would probably be cheaper/faster/easier to just replace the xl mount with an ef mount. I will say it's an exciting time to be a filmmaker when cameras can do so much that our wish lists for new cams become really short!

I agree Nick. It would be clever of Canon to make a full frame or APS-C camera that can utilize 1/3" lenses. Looking at the APS-C specs on the Rebel XTi and it's only a 15 megapixel sensor. So I don't think there's enough photosites on the chip to resolve 1080. But it might do 720.

Lenses. I'm actually hoping for an EOS mount. That way we can use Canon's complete arsenal of lenses. Also, I would like to see Canon make some dedicated lenses for the camera using the EOS mount (focusing for cinema and video rather than photography).

Workflow. What would be an ideal workflow for an APS-C or full frame camera? Obviously data. But what kind of what media? I'm assuming Canon will stick with 1080p. But I would love to see 2K capability (2048x1080). I'll assume an RGB 10-bit color space. Hopefully not 4:2:2. I really hope Canon doesn't come out with some proprietary memory card like Sony did, but rather use something more standard like CF. Would Canon even try a RAW workflow? Sounds risky, which is un-Canon like.

I really hope Canon doesn't come out with some proprietary memory card like Sony did, but rather use something more standard like CF. Would Canon even try a RAW workflow? Sounds risky, which is un-Canon like....I hope they use SDXC cards. The spec calls for backward compatibility with SDHC and regular SD cards and capacities of 2 Tera-Bytes ! The read rates are supposed to be in the area of 104 to 300 MB per second. In my local market, CF cards are hard to find and are quite expensive.

Interesting insight, Mark. That rumor of 60 fps at 120Hz and a data rate of 50MB/s would work well with the SDXC cards (if their throughput is indeed accurate).

...Yeah. I hope the SDXC format delivers on its promises. I'm less interested in the read rate as I am in the wrire rate. I hope Canon keeps the chainsaw design concept and, plesae, please, please, please give us a decent high resolution HD viewfinder with the new camera.

I think it's also important that any future cameras coming from Canon should not exceed $8000. That's the ceiling for most of the guys/gals looking for a camera like this.

I'd love to see Canon flip Panasonic the bird one more time (that's the evil voice in me -- sorry). The HPX300 is a beautiful machine even if its 1080/24 mode is somewhat crippled. But I think Canon has a chance of a lifetime here if they go for it. If they don't....then I might become a Panasonic customer. Or maybe The Cult of RED will finally indoctrinate me.

I think it's also important that any future cameras coming from Canon should not exceed $8000. That's the ceiling for most of the guys/gals looking for a camera like this....Yup. I'm exactly the customer you describe ! Except your $8K US is my $10,060.1 Canadian. (Although I'm sure they'll find a way to mark it up another 2 Grand like they did with the XL H1 in Montreal) I really appreciate Canon's great optical lens quality and I'm on my second XL camera model from them with no complaints in terms of the stunning image quality we get out of our XL H1.

I'd love to see Canon flip Panasonic the bird one more time (that's the evil voice in me -- sorry). The HPX300 is a beautiful machine even if its 1080/24 mode is somewhat crippled. But I think Canon has a chance of a lifetime here if they go for it. If they don't....then I might become a Panasonic customer. Or maybe The Cult of RED will finally indoctrinate me....Yeah, I'm really looking at Panasonic now, since they came up with the extra timelapse features in DVC Pro 100 HD resolution in the HVX 200 *A* camera. I'm also no longer a fan of how Canon Company is run out of Canada. The customer service is very poor from the Toronto office and in Montreal the local office is run like a classical branch operation. Want something ? The Montreal office doesn't know anything - Call Toronto. There is no Canon XL Owners club in Canada and I think there should have been. Panasonic camcorders keep getting better and better and in my local market the Panasonic HVX 200 and 200 A have been 3K cheaper than the Canon XL H1A. I wasn't happy with the overall image quality of the HVX 200 vs the H1, but the HVX 200 A is now equal to the H1. I'm not sorry I paid what I did for my H1, and I like the HDV format. The HDV format has been accepted natively with my NLE (MC) and now Avid Media Composer accepts Canon native 24 F while FCP does not accept HDV at all I understand. (??) HDV has been the bane of the local digi-underground independent guerilla film maker scene in this end of Canada since 2005 and many of them are shooting on the H1 and XG A1.

I'll agree with Robert, I would be fine with using CF cards (I jsut got a 16gb for 30 bucks) but honestly I'm just as fine using another type of hard drive. Though if they're going to a proprietary type of recording I'd love for it to be something like an expresscard/34 size that could write to the PCI E bus of a computer, (similar I guess to the sony, but not like the p2 of panasonic) As long as three other manufacturers besides canon make the media I think I'm happy. Honestly CF and SDHC are almost as cheap as expensive MQ tape for the same size now so if they go that route it's cool with me. I think though an SD card would be too small for me and I KNOW I'd lose at least 12 of them in the course of my shooting with this imaginary camera.

I don't know that I realy want 2k only because I've got no way to view it, I mean I suppose HD was around for a while without the ability to distribute easily to conumers but I just don't see that as something Canon is willing to invest in. (when the h1 came out there were 2 different ways to distribute HD to consumers and I think that's as cutting edge as they want to get)

I will say it would be GREAT to have an EF lens that could be used for video but I'm just as fine using primes. Now that I have the 5dm2 I will probably actually build up a collection of zeiss/nikon glass instead of canon, but the good thing about glass is it holds it's value for a while so I suppose if I have to switch over to canon to make it work with a camera I'm ok with that as well.

I think another thing that would be mandatory is some sort of intervolometer which would be simple to institute with a tapeless recording system.

I personally think it would be cool to do under and overcranking but I could see that as being limited by the sensor.

Also I humble request the mother of all viewfinders, I want twice the resolution of the fu-1000 with twice the color of the stock viewfinder. In fact I would like the equivalent of watching my iphone in landscape mode and then put a lens over it.

I don't know that HD-SDI is neccesary for monitoring I like it loads better then HDMI but that may just be me. Having the option for SD- for clients stuck in the early 2000's;) is cool too.

The Red One may be here but the Scarlet isn't. And I don't think it will be avaible untill late 2010. So that is almost 2 years from now. So when I say that Canon can come with a full-frame camera, I think it will be somewhere in 2012.

I really don't think that you can expect companies like Canon, Sony, JVC and Panasonic to counter RED... which is rogue company. They will always be more conservative. They only need to make sure that they are not too late with their answers...

Many people will prefer an AAA brand over a small company from the US with no international service organization in place. Maybe RED will have one in a few years, but for now, they haven't. And I think it is very important to news organizations etcetera. Indie filmmaking might be a different situation.

I think Canon will eventually go with APS-C, just because they have all the lenses and a lot of experience there so it seems the most logical step.

...I'm also no longer a fan of how Canon Company is run out of Canada. The customer service is very poor from the Toronto office and in Montreal the local office is run like a classical branch operation. Want something ? The Montreal office doesn't know anything - Call Toronto. There is no Canon XL Owners club in Canada and I think there should have been. Panasonic camcorders keep getting better and better and in my local market the Panasonic HVX 200 and 200 A have been 3K cheaper than the Canon XL H1A. I wasn't happy with the overall image quality of the HVX 200 vs the H1, but the HVX 200 A is now equal to the H1.

Sorry to hijack the thread a lil' bit, but I just wanted to say I completely agree with you about Canon Canada's customer support (or lack thereof). I live in Quebec city, and the only way I can repair a Canon camcorder is by sending it by mail to the Service Center near Montreal. And wait for about a month and a half to get it back. I had to send my XL2 2 times, and the two times I waited way too long for something that would've taken 2-3 weeks top with Panasonic or Sony tech support in my city. All the head of the service dept. in Montreal could tell me was that they were sorry and they'd try to go faster next time. Well, when I needed to get a HD cam, I went with the HPX170 instead of the XL-H1. One of the reasons to go to another company was that I sure as hell didn't want to wait that long ever again for a repair from Canon.

Mark, when you say Canon needs not only create a cam that can compete but also up its customer support in Canada, I'm 100% behind you. I really hope reps from Canon are reading this : I really love Canon products but unfortunately they lost me as a customer. Not forever though ; I might come back later if customer service problems are taken care of (and if Canon creates an XL-H2 or something else that kicks the HPX170's @$$) :-)

Just my 2 cents, sorry for the hijack!

...Salut Gabriel ! Je comprends toi exactement ! For me, it wasn't just the service issue alone - It was the arrogant attitude and lack of respect for the customer - repeat customer I might add ! As I wrote earlier in this thread, it was the extra $800.00 hefty price for the Canon Console Software after paying 12 Grand for my second Canon camera which did it for me. Either a) the software should have been included in the box with the H1 for the purchase price of the camera, or b) The purchase price of the software should have been considerably less expensive.

Some companies, when they know they have a good product, and they sense a strong patronage for their product, can become very smug and full of themselves. This attitude quickly becomes part of their corporate dealings with customers and permeates everything they do. Clients like you and me, on the other hand, pick up on this right away and it can eventually sour one on a product. I hear you my friend, I understand where you coming from. It can be nauseating to deal with a company who thinks their product is so good that they can do no wrong. There is a company like that who interacts on this website.

As long as we're talking about Canon service, I have to say that I consider it odious that I can't get my XL2 serviced for even basic things, like a headcleaning, for instance, in my area. The local electronic shop can service Panasonic, but not Canon. For something that basic, I really can't see why I have to send it off to the Canon service center.