The whole point of developing HDV was to use *exactly* the same physical and logical technology while varying only the way data are encoded. For the likes of Sony to go to all the trouble of sticking with the same transport mechanism, control logic, digital transport protocol, bit rate etc (obviously in the interests of cost) but then turn around and develop entirely new tape formulations is very hard to believe.

A high quality DV tape will perform just fine in an HDV unit. Lower quality tapes won't because MPEG is much less tolerant towards the higher levels of data corruption that may be encountered.

Lots of good points raised here and I'm with Adam in post #3. There's no such thing as DV tape or DVCAM tape or HDV tape - it's all just tape. And at the price we pay for even the expensive cassette you're certainly not getting any human inspection, so every time you pop a new one into your deck you're taking a risk with an untested bit of kit.

So my only divergence from Adam is that when I reuse a tape I know it's a good one, I know I've tested it, I know it's been burnished smooth by two or more passes. And I archive onto tape because I know how reliable it'll be for the 7th or 10th pass in the future, when I want to access that data again.

Each to his own.

tom.

A year ago I was reading Sony’s professional tape specifications (pdf) regarding the HDV tapes. I just spend an hour trying to find it on the net, to no avail. But if I remember correctly, the difference between the Sony's DV(CAM) and HDV tapes is the fact that the HDV tapes have higher RF output, making them less prone to errors (dropouts).

Rob

I suspect you are refering to the DigitalMaster series of tapes (Sony Digital Master - Home (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/DigitalMaster/index.htm) , http://www.okno-tv.ru/files/equip/eq_2836_126.pdf). These have two magnetic layers instead of one. The tapes are branded equally for DVCAM, DV and HDV. And at $17 a pop for a 63min tape (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/364848-REG/Sony_PHDVM63DM_PHDVM_63DM_DVCAM_Master_Digital.html), quite reasonable for critical/unrepeatable recordings.

I've been using those Sony Digital Mastering tapes for some time now. They've gone up from about $15 to around $18 now, but that's still cheap for an hour's recording. I haven't seen a dropout yet. For home movies and fun stuff I used the cheaper Sony HDV tapes, for $7-$8 each, but now I do that sort of thing with a little pocketcam Sony TG1.

They've gone up from about $15 to around $18 now, but that's still cheap for an hour's recording

Especially for those of us who remember BetaSP at 30 minutes for 30 dollars. <grin>

Especially for those of us who remember BetaSP at 30 minutes for 30 dollars. <grin>

Or how about me with my pre-striped Kodachrome 40 Super-8 sound film. That was 3 mins 20 seconds for $15 back in the 1980s

Before that I was paying about $145 a roll for 10 minutes of 16mm film, including processing and workprinting. When I first got into video 2" and then 1" tape was around 2 bucks a minute. We thought that was amazingly cheap. Then 3/4" was around $30 for 30 minutes, falling to half that as Betacam came out. Thirty bucks for 30 minutes of Betacam SP was pretty standard for a long time. Eventually we were paying in the low 20s. Good tape is cheap today, but I don't think that cheap tape is always good.

Hi there, these are my experiences.
I have been taking video for about 20 years and are now at tape 375.
I started with standard 8 mm, them Hi8, them Digital8 and now for the last 4 years or so MiniDV.
Someone some 20 years ago made a comment in an electronics magazine that there was noting wrong with using different brands of tape, as long as you did not use one brand long enough so only one type of oxides and the like would build up.
I used this philosophy right through the 8mm tapes and rarely had to clean heads. The same goes for the various video recorders (BETA and VHS) I have owned.
With my last camera I changed my routine and only used one brand of tape. This went OK for about 1.5 years at which time I started to experience picture and sound drop outs (picture blocky and sound a buzz) for about 1 second at the time. Sometimes it happened once per tape sometimes twice and sometimes not at all, using a cleaning tape would clear it for one or two tapes and then it would be back.
I changed back to my previous routine and started again to mix different brands of tape and the drop outs have all but gone.

What are the experiences of others video camera users?

MiniDv tapes, like everything else, have different quality levels and everybody has his/her favorite brand. It's not dv vs hdv, because the tapes are all the same format.

The issue with sticking with one brand is that some tapes use a wet lube (Sony, Panasonic, as I am told) and others use a dry lube (Maxell, JVC, etc). Either one is fine but if you switch back and forth the mix of dry lube and wet lube makes mud and clog your heads. So you pick one type and stick with it to avoid the mixing....or so the urban legend goes.

FWIW our team goes through 100-150 tapes a month and we are perfectly happy with the one brand we have been using for three years without dropouts or problems, we are superstitious enough to keep doing it. (It doesn't matter, but it's Maxell DV Pro, I'm not recommending that specifically, just to stick with a brand that works for you) //Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team

The problem is, that in my case, staying with the same brand worked for over a year and than I started to have consistent trouble with drop outs.
Since I have reverted to my previous practice of using several brands of tape the drop outs have all but disappeared.

Currently I am using Sony, Panasonic, JVC and TDK.

How many people stick with one brand of tape for their home VCR?
Now a lot of people will point out how much smaller the MiniDV tape is, and that is right but small is only relative and the old VHS tape is much smaller than the Umatic tape or some other formats that came before that.

The issue with sticking with one brand is that some tapes use a wet lube (Sony, Panasonic, as I am told)

FWIW Panasonic uses dry lubricant. As far as I know, only Sony has used wet lube on its tapes in recent times. I have not been able to find out if Sony uses wet or dry lub on their high dollar HDV tapes.

What is the best tape? I have a friend who goes through a lot of MiniDV tapes and he will use anything but Sony and he switches brands often. I have another friend will only use Sony Premium tapes and he is absolutely certain that they work the best. I think his opinion is mainly based on price. But, he has been shooting on HDV longer than I have and he says he has never had a single drop out. On my VX1000 and later on my VX2100, I mixed tape brands all the time and never had any issues when using new tapes. But I did experience problems with used tapes. My impression was that most of the problems I had with used tapes were mainly Sony. But I didn't really document it. Since I have started shooting on HDV, I have used Panasonic 99% of the time. But I did use maybe 1 or 2 tapes that were some other brand. So far no drop outs at all.

Who knows......

You confirm that changing brands of tape does not have to produce problems.
Anyone that has had my experience, that changing brands had a positve effect?

Yes. I switched from Panasonic AMQ to Sony's PHDVM and quit having dropouts. That's the only reason to switch, in my opinion. If one brand of tape starts giving dropouts, clean the heads and move on.

I suppose my last sentence should have read:

Is there anyone that has had the experience, that constantly changing the MiniDV tape brand used in a video camera drastically reduces drop outs?

Tape rules:........
Never re-use your tapes. They should go through your camera exactly twice: once when you shoot and once when you capture.

Adam

I agree with you that you should never use tapes over and over again but you state here that you should only use it "exactly" twice. Why exactly , I for example use my tapes 3 to 4 times only and never had any problems.

Stelios

.. you state here that you should only use it "exactly" twice. Why exactly...Only because that's the minimum possible when shooting and capturing. More passes will likely work fine and are sometimes necessary, but every pass increases your odds of a problem.

but every pass increases your odds of a problem.

Don't forget that using a new $2 or a $10 tape also increases your odds of a problem. You're expecting a highly complex, 28 component part mechanical assembly to be perfect, straight out of the box.

At these prices there's no human inspection whatsoever. If you've used a tape - in other words inspected it thoroughly yourself - then that's a far 'better' tape than a new, untested one.

You'd not dream of using an untested microphone for a shoot. Don't dream of using untested tape, then.

tom.

...You'd not dream of using an untested microphone for a shoot. Don't dream of using untested tape, then.tom.

well that means its better to use the "tested" tape again than using a new one as Adam suggested! the question is then, are the odds more to find a problem with a new tape or with a used one that has been passed 4 or 6 times?

Stelios

well that means its better to use the "tested" tape again than using a new one as Adam suggested!Stelios

That's correct. Of course you can't go on re-cycling for ever, you will have to break open new tapes now and again. My point is that such a tape should be used on a 'repeatable' shoot, where should a fault occur the shot can be captured again. The untested microphone can also be used on this shoot as take two can rectify any problems that arise.

Weddings and real-time events meant you only have one shot. Use untested kit if you're the type that doesn't buckle up on the drive there.

tom.

This makes no sense at all to me. The odds of getting a "bad" tape are far lower than the odds of actually creating one by running it through your cam unnecessarily. Precisely how do you "test" a tape? What do you do, roll an hour of bars and then sit and watch the whole thing to make sure there isn't a dropout? And what guarantee is this, as the odds of a dropout increase with use -- the first pass could be fine but you could be creating a problem for the second pass. And this doesn't even take into account the extra wear on your heads and tape transport if you effectively shoot twice as much tape as necessary.

This is up there with the myth of pre-blacking a tape, which is not only unnecessary but potentially harmful (timecode-wise).

Normally I defer to all Tom advice, as he's right about everything, but this time I just don't get it.

Normally I defer to all Tom advice, as he's right about everything, but this time I just don't get it.

I'm just quoting this to get it up in print again :-))

Each to his own, good people. My decks are kept glinty-clean, I don't film in adverse conditions, I change tapes with gentle care and often I run the camera for an hour non-stop. The tapes are 'checked' in that the footage (B cam often) is transferred to the pc with ne'er a dropout. That is indeed the 'dangerous' second pass.

I agree - don't black.

Let's take mechanically automated tape production as 99.9% perfect - a wildly optimistic figure when we pay so little for so complex an assembly. That means for every 1000 sold one is duff in some way or other. Millions and millions must be sold, right?

So out there, on the shelves, waiting to be bought, are the duff ones. Every time I crack one open I pray it's ok. It's a third the cost of a sandwich, and I've had a few iffy sandwiches in my time.

tom.

I normally run a minute of bars at the head of each tape before I shoot anyway, so maybe this suffices mechanically. I suppose a quick FF/REW could also verify the mechanics of the tape as well.

But dropout-wise, I just don't see a way to do this.

And don't get me started on the sandwich thing....

I just purchased the Z5 and used it this pass weekend.
I used it with Sony HD Tapes. I was told that I can use
regular mini dv tapes and shoot in HD.
Has anybody shot regular mini dv tapes in HD
and if so how was the content?

I just purchased the Z5 and used it this pass weekend.
I used it with Sony HD Tapes. I was told that I can use
regular mini dv tapes and shoot in HD.
Has anybody shot regular mini dv tapes in HD
and if so how was the content?
You're kidding, right? That question has been answered a half-dozen times in this thread alone...

If you don't want to read the whole thread, start with post #44...

I agree with the opinions of the people had used different kinds of tapes. In my opinion, as general rules, I propose these:
1.-Use high quality HDV tapes (more expensive of course) if you shoot critical events(historical, documentary, etc.) That's way you can use years after without problem
2.-Use high quality DV tapes (less expensive) if you shoot not important events at all.

3.- In any case don't reuse these tapes. Only once.

With this basic rules, you have the 99,9 % garantie no problems in your recordings.

Thank you very much for this forum.

Well on friday I recorded on to a Tape and got a drop out, a big nasty one second type where the audio just drops away (tried capture several times to verify a drop out).This was a brand new just unwrapped tape!
So as a trial I then reused the tape, taping over the area where there had been a drop out.
I then played the tape back and low and behold a good tape no drop outs!
so is the old used once tape a now good old tape or should I throw it away and try a new tape:) ! thought provoking?

You don't say what make or type of tape you were using John, but the reality is that you're buying a highly complex, multi-part assembly for very little money indeed - about a third the price of a sandwich.

So with no human inspection there will be failures straight from the box, and as the first pass generally burnishes off the high spots, the second pass (usually the replay of that tape) is when it's at its best.

I wouldn't throw away that tape, though I might be tempted to use it on a two camera shoot just-in-case. I think you were just unlucky, and the debris that got carried to your spinning heads has now disappeared.

tom.

Tom I agree totally with you, the point I was trying to make was that the so called new tape isnt always the best and the tape is now in my camera box ready for use confident that its a good one, but for a multi camera shoot or test footage.
For critical work I still use the sonyHDV masters. FYI the tape was a sony premium, I use them all the time.
cheers john

I've used the Sony DVM63 (HD) tape for one particular project and I haven't been impressed. Seems like the same amount of drop-out occurs as with the cheaper Sony miniDV tapes. I can only hope that maybe there's a slight difference in noise levels but who's to say?

I know this is going to come with a bunch of arguments, but I really suggest spending the money on a hard-drive based recorder.

This is the problem with tape and HD media. Dropouts are common as hell - everyone's experienced at least one, and they always cost time and money - if the scene isn't completely ruined by them.

I understand that tapes are great for long term storage and backup. But I would never, every consider going back to using tape for my primary video recording solution. Dropouts are just too... damn... common.

Brian, I agree but the problem is the cost of getting two firestores, flash based drives.
I now record to pc when filming single camera ice skating events because I cant afford a drop out, but weddings etc thats just not practical.
The sony flash card recorder looks good but again buying two along with the extra batteries and media makes it a non starter.
So for jobs where I can only use tape I just buy the best tape stock and use two cameras.
Im also starting to believe that once a tape has been used and you know its a good one, then use it again.
cheers john

Brian, I agree but the problem is the cost of getting two firestores, flash based drives.
I now record to pc when filming single camera ice skating events because I cant afford a drop out, but weddings etc thats just not practical.
The sony flash card recorder looks good but again buying two along with the extra batteries and media makes it a non starter.
So for jobs where I can only use tape I just buy the best tape stock and use two cameras.
Im also starting to believe that once a tape has been used and you know its a good one, then use it again.
cheers john

You paid how much for the cameras? The $2000 for two Firestores shouldn't be that much in comparison.

I put off buying an XH-A1 when given the oppertunity simply because Canon still has the damn thing recording to tape.

You paid how much for the cameras? The $2000 for two Firestores shouldn't be that much in comparison.

I put off buying an XH-A1 when given the oppertunity simply because Canon still has the damn thing recording to tape.

Slightly more over here Im afraid... plus enough batteries for two.
4180 | Focus Enhancements Firestore FS-C (FSC) - 60GB DTE HDD recorder + mounting kit for Canon HDV Camcorders (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_product.php?productID=4180)

Thats a whole lot of sony master tapes.
time I got my moneys worth it will be time to upgrade cameras( possibly)

However having recorded direct to hard drive before ( spare pc, cost £200) the benefits are staggering so yes the canons are the last hdv tape cameras i will buy.

Well on friday I recorded on to a Tape and got a drop out, a big nasty one second type where the audio just drops away (tried capture several times to verify a drop out).This was a brand new just unwrapped tape!
So as a trial I then reused the tape, taping over the area where there had been a drop out.
I then played the tape back and low and behold a good tape no drop outs!
so is the old used once tape a now good old tape or should I throw it away and try a new tape:) ! thought provoking?

This is a good point: not all dropouts are the same. There are record dropouts and playback dropouts.

Say a piece of shmutz gets on the tape as you record. That segment of tape will not get recorded--a record dropout. No amount of playing it back will regain that segment of information. But rerecording that same tape may result in a good recording a second time as the shmutz may have moved (likely to another spot on the tape).

Say a piece of magnetic material is missing from a section of tape. Again, a record dropout and no amount of replaying it will find that material.

Now, say the tape was pristine during record. A piece of shmutz gets on the tape during playback. Replaying the tape may remove the shmutz and allow sucessful playback. However, it is quite likely that the shmutz might get moved somewhere else (as above).

Or, say a piece of material flakes off during playback: this may as well be a record dropout--no amount of replaying will regain this information.

I can only hope that maybe there's a slight difference in noise levels but who's to say?It's digital, so that is not possible. The data is either there or it isn't -- it's all 1s and 0s. "Better" S/N ratio is an artifact of analog tapes.

I just bought a XHA1s and got both SD and HD tapes for it. But I recently read that to shoot HD you do not need HD miniDV tapes. You can use the standard miniDV tapes. The HD tapes are supposed to give fewer drop-outs than the standard tapes. With DV-AVI a drop out would be hardly noticed, but as HDV MPEG2 is a compressed format and the picture relies on information in a number of frames any drop-outs can give a second or so of bad video. But if you do not want to risk problems with dropouts, then use HD miniDV tapes.

Sound correct?

yes, and more importantly, once you pick a brand, stick with it. Changing brands can cause clogged heads. If you must change brands, run a cleaning tape before the change.

The format is digital, not analog. It's a series of ones and zeroes. Marketing hype and misinformation aside, a good-quality DV tape will do just as wel as a "special" HDV tape.


J.

There are so many threads on this subject already.

So if you shouldn't mix brands, what about mixing the HD and the regular ones? Obviously I wouldn't mix on the same shoot between HD and SD.

After reading through this entire thread and seeing that this question was not answered, it seems that it may not be important, but I feel I should ask again anyway. Within the thread, there are differences described between HDV's and DV's materials used, so it seems that this could potentially create some conflict within the brand. Does someone need to worry when switching between HDV and DV when using the same brand? Would cleaning the heads be a good idea when performing such a switch? Also, would it be necessary to have a cleaning tape that aligns with the brand of the tapes someone is using, since a sony tape cleaner might be better designed for cleaning a "wet" lubricant off the heads?

Forgive me, as I am just a lowly newbie looking for answers and I would appreciate any feedback on these questions.

Thanks, Justin.

You can use any make of head-cleaning tape you like. They're all pretty abraisive, so it matters not a lot which one you choose.

And you can safely swap between (say) Sony's Premium, DVCAM, HDV and Excellence tapes without going through the head-cleaning tape phase first. I know - I've been doing it for years.

tom.

Thank you for the timely response. Now I can put my order in through B&H for all my extra goodies! I appreciate it Tom.

Justin

To all those that have posted answers - Thank you. I had a Sony HC9HDR replaced by Sony Aus as the Tech guys had no idea about drop outs. The original one worked fine with Sony and TDK tapes but things turned south with JVC tapes. When I got the replacement Camera I had not yet read the invaluable info posted here and again used Sony, TDK and JVC tapes and yes it happened again. Since reading this thread I have run a head cleaning cassette through the machine but I still have a few drop outs. As I do underwate video I only get one chance to shoot whever is there and a drop out at the wrong moment. Any other ways to avoid the drop outs?

The more I read about JVC tapes, the more I back off.

Obviously if you're making BD you'll have to shoot HDV underwater Joseph, but if you're simply down-converting to edit then have you considered shooting in SD to begin with?

Then if you can get dropouts the individual frames can have their sparklies repaired in Photoshop. You won't be doing that with half a second of lost HDV footage.

tom.

I tend to agree as I also have had problems with the cheaper JVC tapes.

Hi Tom, Appreciate your quick response. I am an amateur but love underwater videography. I had a JVC SD Camera but it has been replaced with the Sony HC9. I could not go back to SD. With the URPro filters the Video often appears better than the dive. This is only posible watching it in full HD. I Edit using Pinnacle 12 and burn files to AVCHD on DVD.

Other than cutting out the drop outs how else would the drop outs be "Fixed/Tweaked". Any other advice would be greatly appreciated - am off to PNG andBali in July so any tricks would be great.

There is no fix, no tweak. If it's not been recorded to tape, it's not been recorded - simple as that.

Use a head cleaner, then stick to one brand of tape. Maybe you should've looked at cameras that record AVCHD direct to SDHC card?

Tom - Hind sight is a wonderful thing. Had I found this thread between cameras (so to speak) I probably would have gone to SDHC. Thanks for the advice

Martin - I noticed you are a fellow Perth Person. Do you by any chance Video underwater?

Ah I re-found the thread!
I read this thread awhile back and had to give it a try. I was very skeptical since I would think the technologies would be incompatible.
My wife had just bought 100 SONY MiniDV Excellence on eBay for $4.00+ each
(I wish she'd use the $2 Premiums, but she needs the IC memory chip) regardless, I gave it a try and it works perfectly! No drops, nothing, its perfect. I haven't cleaned my heads or anything. Now I use the SONY Excellence exclusively, I don't see myself going back to HDV tapes anytime soon.

I would have never tried it...I'm thankful I did!
Thanks,

Rick