I'm searching for a less professional audio software for sonorisation of my movies as the well-known and industrial leading Protools and Nuendo (as being to high priced for me). Which software has about the same features for audio on video but in a less professional environment? Is there one beside the 2 mentioned before that is being used by semi-pros who have a tight budget, like me? Beside the normal tasks one can expect from a DAW, I certainly want to mix 5.1 surround (in the package, not an optional VST), work with MIDI and vst instruments, record voices/instruments and record old records and clean them up (dehiss/decrack etc).

Second: It seems most DAW are capable of importing video and editing the audio in 5.1 but what are the mean differences between:
* Sonys Acid Pro and Soundforge
* Adobes Audition and Soundbooth
* Steinbergs Cubase
* Cakewalks Sonar

My PC is windows XP based and I'm using a Focusrite Saffire LE audio interface.

What would be a good choice? I'm looking for something around 600$

Cubase is the exact same as Nuendo except it has less post-production features for crossfading.

Sonar is comparable to Cubase.

A lot of people use both of them.

Also Reaper is a good alternative.

I use Cubase daily. It's good stuff and you can work with someone using Nuendo with a breeze. Plus it works with almost any interface. I love its layout too and since Yamaha bought them out, if you have Yammy gear it is getting better and better integration-wise.

I use both ProTools and Nuendo every day and I have Cubase and have used it quite a bit. As Chris says, the differences between Nuendo and Cubase are few, mainly in certain post-production features. Nuendo has much better mix automation, better work to picture functionality and better surround tools. That isn't to say there's anything wrong with Cubase, you can still do a fully pro job and it is a tremendous value in my opinion. I don't know Sonar but it looks very well appointed, definitely worth a demo if you can find one. I'd steer clear of ProTools LE, in your price range you would not be happy; LE runs more expensive than Nuendo for a similar feature set. John

When working with MIDI, I prefer Sonar. I find the Cubase user interface to be a bit inside-out. ACID only added MIDI recently, so its VST instrument support and MIDI features (such as tempo editing) isn't that strong. ACID is excellent for working with loops, though.

When mixing, I use Vegas, rather than Sonar. I find Vegas to be much faster to work with and more controllable. Vegas also allows you to edit the video, which is great when you have separate files for the various video scenes. Sonar only lets you import a single video, and it's clunky when you want to start with the music and delay the video intro. (Sometimes you need a "hit" on the first frame of a video scene. Often the music needs a few milliseconds for the attack, if not a few notes or a cymbal roll that leads to the hit.)

For mastering, I use Sound Forge. It comes with the Isotope Mastering plugins. It also includes an excellent noise reduction plugin.

I find that separating composition (MIDI & VSTs), mixing and mastering is helpful. Ideally, you completely finish one before moving to the next. Sometimes, you need to go back a step or two, but it's either to clean up one or two tracks, or it's a complete do-over. The bottom line is that you don't have to switch back and forth often at all. If you are switching back and forth often, there's a bigger problem than the tools.

If I were to buy a single program, it would be Sonar. It can do midi, mix and master. I'd probably get Sound Forge second for the noise reduction and mastering tools. By that time, you might be really comfortable mixing in Sonar, and might not need Vegas. For me, however, it would feel like mixing with handcuffs on. Vegas simply falls to hand. It's not that Sonar is that bad. It's that Vegas is that good.

I use Sequoia - but the cheaper Samplitude (http://www.samplitude.com/eng/seq/index.html) starts at only £50.

When working with MIDI, I prefer Sonar. I find the Cubase user interface to be a bit inside-out. ACID only added MIDI recently, so its VST instrument support and MIDI features (such as tempo editing) isn't that strong. ACID is excellent for working with loops, though.

When mixing, I use Vegas, rather than Sonar. I find Vegas to be much faster to work with and more controllable. Vegas also allows you to edit the video, which is great when you have separate files for the various video scenes. Sonar only lets you import a single video, and it's clunky when you want to start with the music and delay the video intro. (Sometimes you need a "hit" on the first frame of a video scene. Often the music needs a few milliseconds for the attack, if not a few notes or a cymbal roll that leads to the hit.)

For mastering, I use Sound Forge. It comes with the Isotope Mastering plugins. It also includes an excellent noise reduction plugin.

I find that separating composition (MIDI & VSTs), mixing and mastering is helpful. Ideally, you completely finish one before moving to the next. Sometimes, you need to go back a step or two, but it's either to clean up one or two tracks, or it's a complete do-over. The bottom line is that you don't have to switch back and forth often at all. If you are switching back and forth often, there's a bigger problem than the tools.

If I were to buy a single program, it would be Sonar. It can do midi, mix and master. I'd probably get Sound Forge second for the noise reduction and mastering tools. By that time, you might be really comfortable mixing in Sonar, and might not need Vegas. For me, however, it would feel like mixing with handcuffs on. Vegas simply falls to hand. It's not that Sonar is that bad. It's that Vegas is that good.

I have to disagree here. I do all midi in Cubase. I love cubase for that. But sonar isn't bad.

I use Sequoia - but the cheaper Samplitude (http://www.samplitude.com/eng/seq/index.html) starts at only £50.

Samplitude is awesome for audio, though its midi is quite lacking. However, check out the Samp for Rent stuff... as you pay the rental, you are actually paying towards buying the program. Plus, this program keeps getting better and better and they update it all the time. It will be the best soon :)

I use ProTools and Digital Performer.

I used to use ams neve AudioFile when I worked in film and tv but now use pro tools for all my final cut pro dubbing needs.

In reply of Jon, I know Vegas has some nice audio tools together with it's videi editing. But I think it's kind of stupid having Production premium CS3 and Edius 5 for the video side and then buying Vegas just for using it for it's audio tools inside.

In reply of Jon, I know Vegas has some nice audio tools together with it's videi editing. But I think it's kind of stupid having Production premium CS3 and Edius 5 for the video side and then buying Vegas just for using it for it's audio tools inside.Keep in mind that Vegas initially came in two flavors: Vegas Video and Vegas Audio. Before long, they merged. I have friends who don't do video at all, but use Vegas as their multi-tracker. ACID actually has a similar GUI, so it might be the better choice for audio-only use, depending on the price.

I have to disagree here. I do all midi in Cubase. I love cubase for that. But sonar isn't bad.
This is really a personal preference thing. I've downloaded Cubase demos over the years and struggled to get it to bend to my will. By the end of the demo period, I was never sold.

I think Sonar/Cubase is akin to songwriters who start with the music vs. songwriters who start with the words. Both methods can make great songs, but you're likely to be more comfortable with one than the other.

Then again, there's Sibelius vs. Finale for notation. Talk about two programs that approach a problem from completely different angles!

I'm with Jon, I've used PTs, Nuendo and others but keep going back to Vegas, except when I need the tools and features Sonar has. My biggest gripe: Vegas cannot import OMF and Vegas' AAF import just will not work. Vegas can't export BWF either. Sound Forge is my audio editor of choice. Vegas and SF integrate nicely when you need surgical tools.

If cost is a major factor, Reaper is the hands down winner. I used Cakewalk software from Pro Audio 9 to Sonar 6 and then switched to Reaper and never had to look back.

If you are married to Premiere why not try Audition 3?

Another software not on the list so far is Ableton Live. I bought a license for version 4 a long time ago for working with loops, but now it seems a full powerhouse for composition and has decent midi capabilities.

If you are heavily into midi then you could try Cakewalk's Project 5. Its development has stopped and should be classified as deadware, but there are many who swear by its capabilities and will continue to use it anyway. I think Cakewalk is pretty much giving the software away at this point.

Anyway, if you had to buy just one software today, Reaper would be the safest bet. It doesn't do 5.1 AFAIK, but most NLE's do.

If cost is a major factor, Reaper is the hands down winner. I used Cakewalk software from Pro Audio 9 to Sonar 6 and then switched to Reaper and never had to look back.

If you are married to Premiere why not try Audition 3?

Another software not on the list so far is Ableton Live. I bought a license for version 4 a long time ago for working with loops, but now it seems a full powerhouse for composition and has decent midi capabilities.

If you are heavily into midi then you could try Cakewalk's Project 5. Its development has stopped and should be classified as deadware, but there are many who swear by its capabilities and will continue to use it anyway. I think Cakewalk is pretty much giving the software away at this point.

Anyway, if you had to buy just one software today, Reaper would be the safest bet. It doesn't do 5.1 AFAIK, but most NLE's do.

Does Reaper have OMF yet?

Does Reaper have OMF yet?

Not that I know of. I don't think its really intended to be a post-production type software like Nuendo, its more of a pure compositional tool for musicians.

Which of those programs mentioned here can also export in AC-3 (dolby digital) or equally without the need of extra (paid) options

<i>Does Reaper have OMF yet?</i>
Jason (Reaper creator) is working on it.
Vegas Pro-8 can render AC-3 surround files w/o additional $$.

I would throw my lot in with vegas. It can use all the same VST plug ins, and is pretty sweet in my opinion. I run the full Sony Suite with Cinescore, Vegas, Sound Forge, and DVD Architect Pro. (never got ACID down though...go figure) I mainly use sound forge ONLY when I need to do things only a DAW can do, otherwise, I do most of my editing in Vegas (both Audio and Video). The full Suite runs around $1000, but thats everything they make essentially. Vegas has a intuitive surround panner, and runs around $549. Remember, Vegas started as a audio editor, so its pretty sweet for that.

We have to distinguish audio aps into two categories: 1) audio editor and 2) music composition. Vegas, which should be classified as an audio editor, doesn't have midi and wouldn't be a great choice for composition. It also doesn't have all the tools for working with loops that Acid, Live or Reaper have.

Since I also use Vegas as my NLE, when I need to do a custom soundtrack I tend to go into Reaper which has a workflow similar to Vegas. What comes out of Reaper then can be tweaked, edited and mastered right in Vegas. Technically, Sony Acid Pro is the same as Reaper but it costs more and has a questionable future.

In reply of Jon, I know Vegas has some nice audio tools together with it's videi editing. But I think it's kind of stupid having Production premium CS3 and Edius 5 for the video side and then buying Vegas just for using it for it's audio tools inside.

I know some sound guys who do their 9-5 on pro tools but for freelance use Vegas.

I've watched them work on it, something odd about watching them edit sound on a video NLE.

I know some sound guys who do their 9-5 on pro tools but for freelance use Vegas.

I've watched them work on it, something odd about watching them edit sound on a video NLE.

Why is that? Vegas was an audio NLE before they (Sonic Foundry / Sony) added video support. The basic GUI layout is the same since it's inception
IMO .. It does have a few design drawbacks though, but that has nothing to do with the video element.

Why is that? Vegas was an audio NLE before they (Sonic Foundry / Sony) added video support. The basic GUI layout is the same since it's inception
IMO .. It does have a few design drawbacks though, but that has nothing to do with the video element.

I sure believe Vegas would do it quiet good in editing and mixing sound, but on one hand I still believe 650€ is a lot of money for audio features in a program that is nowadays mainly a video NLE. Besides I don't think Vegas can handle MIDI, another feature I want to use (in relation with our Yamaha piano) For this 650€ I could buy e.g. Cubase with a lot more audio features included.

Does anybody know if Sonys ACID is comparable in its 5.1 mixing features with Vegas. That a program doesn't seem to have a sure future, is not my biggest problem. For now I plan just to buy one version and use it until my PC dies and when a new PC then wouldn't accept my programs.

Technically, Sony Acid Pro is the same as Reaper but it costs more and has a questionable future.
Few differences, but more interest would be for composers.. Acid can preview audio and loops in the browser auto-beatmapped w/o adding to your sequencer, and play time synced to your project, and also timestretch/compress all audio to the same bpm w/ a few clicks. One developer of Acid now works for Apple, the guy who came up w/ acidized loop technology now focuses on similar Apple Loop utility for garageband, logic etc.

Mildly off topic, but this app can do almost anything musically, has a fully featured waveform sequencer w/ good audio engine.. and starts at $49. However not sure about video formats and BWF.
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fl-8.jpg

Have you looked at the freeware Audacity to see if it meets your needs?

Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/)

John

Is there anyone here who uses Cubase 5? I'll probably buy this program, but have a few questions left:
1. What are known issues when importing and playing video within cubase?
2. Is it possible to use my Canopus edius NX express card for ideo view on my external monitor?
3. The dolby digital encoders is no longer available as seperate plug-in. Is it now included in Cubase? If not, what is the best alternative? Maybe third-party programs?

Other concerns left when using Cubase for scoring sound on video?

Thank you

Is there anyone here who uses Cubase 5? I'll probably buy this program, but have a few questions left:
1. What are known issues when importing and playing video within cubase?
2. Is it possible to use my Canopus edius NX express card for ideo view on my external monitor?
3. The dolby digital encoders is no longer available as seperate plug-in. Is it now included in Cubase? If not, what is the best alternative? Maybe third-party programs?

Other concerns left when using Cubase for scoring sound on video?

Thank you

Video isn't what Cubase is made for. Sure you can get it to work, but not with the add ons that you want here. You'd need Nuendo for the extras. Even a version of Nuendo 3 should be great.

I think you can use video in the new Samplitude 11 (due any moment - buy v10 now and you get a free upgrade when v11 is issued).

Great program - I use it.

As a Cubase user, since it was black and white on an Atari - and firmly locked into the update programme, I'm now on version 5. If it helps, I was really happy with SX3, and stayed on this the longest. I'm involved with music technology that's being taught and examined in UK schools and colleges, and there are many Cubase users out there (and Logic for the Mac people). It's quite common for them to be using Cubase to run Video, and it works fine. I've not yet used it on version 5 - I'll open a project from SX3 in it and see what's changed. Midi, is the real strength of Cubase. The audio side does the normal things, but midi is where there are some really useful features. version 5 (and 4) handle midi slightly differently - but the new system will be better, once I've got it under my belt. I keep trying to do things the old way, but I'll get there. One useful thing is that score integration is better in version 5, so you can do audio/midi/video and sheet music production in one package. Cubase can handle software synths, virtual instruments and a huge range of processing (both audio and midi). It CANNOT any longer, handle Direct X plug-ins which is a major problem for me as I have tons collected over the years, and may of these only have paid for updates that will work on 5.

Cubase isn't the best - because there's no such thing. Each has strengths in certain areas, and MIDI to me is one of Cubase's main strengths.

Hello Paul,

It would be a pleasure if you could try how version 5 is dealing with video and share your experiences. Nuendo is way above my budget and there are a lot of features I wouldn't use, so it would be nice if I could use Cubase for it.

I think the whole topic of this thread boils down to what combination of jobs you normally do -whether you're doing composition, mixdown, mastering, and/or video editing.

My Evxperience is with CoolEdit/Audition, Vegas and SoundForge - so I can really only comment, on the audio side, of mixing and mastering. Vegas does pretty well for mixing and mastering - it's only shortfall is that it doesn't do discrete audio waveform editing. That's usually where SoundForge come in. Audition does mixing and has a built-in waveform editor plus a few other features. I used to use Audition primarily for audio but started using more and more of Vegas's audio tools just because it was simply easier to do things in one place. Familiarity with Vegas's filters and effects (and the presets I've made over time) just made it natural to use SoundForge for wave editing and non-realtime audio work - so Audition doesn't get used as much anymore.

But like I said, audio/music composition is a whole 'nother animal amd there are better tools for that.

Well, from what the OP originally described, I gather a perfect one-stop-shop solution doesn't really exist in his budget range. I am not sure if Nuendo has audio restoration capabilities, but I would think that is the best bet. Unfortunately the price tag is way out of his (and my) league.

Even though I am a musician, I would never think to do an original score for a video. I tend to use SonicFire with smartsounds 9 out of 10 times, and sometimes use my small collection of Digital Juice Stack Traxx. I usually export the individual loops out of SonicFire and break up the Stack Traxx into loops in Reaper. I also have a large collection of Acid Loops and I mix and match as needed to get the score. Reaper then allows me to arrange the loops into a custom sore.

Trying to do original scores means access to many sounds, usually through VST instruments, which are often very pricey. Just finding a good sampled piano can run into the hundreds. The Vienna Symphony samples are over a thousand.

A complete smartsound song costs 20 bucks. You can get 5 Stack Traxx DVDs for 80 bucks. Put them in Acid Studio for 30 bucks and do custom arrangements. If I have a client who wants a custom score, I would outsource it to a starving composer/musician.

I am looking for a good program for audio restoration (clicks/pops/noise/hums/ambient noise) and to do final mixing of audio under my video. I am on a Mac.

I own Final Cut Studio but I really don't like Soundtrack Pro and it keeps crashing on me with larger audiofiles/projects. I really don't want to waste my time on it.

Which programs do you recommend? I understand many of you use Pro Tools. Will Apple's own Logic also be a candidate?

Best reasonably priced audio repair/restoration package I know is Izotope RX, but that's all it is - just audio restoration.

I had good luck with Bias Sound Soap as well, but I really like the way RX lets you work in the spectral display.