Obviously I am New to the EX3 and HD Video. I am not sure this is related to those but i'll ask anyway.

I recorded some Video on my EX3. Basic interior shots....all looked fine. But when i panned left to Right and played the footage back the video had a jitter/slight freeze to it. All Factory Settings. I didn't change anything

Has anyone had this happen, and why would this be happening?

i was playing it back through my mac in the Clip Browser Software.

What did you have your camera set to in terms of progressive or interlaced.
If you set it to 24p (in NTSC area), you will get the horrid jitter on pans and tilts. 25p in PAL area will exhibit the same jitter but for me, I found that with Picture Profiles Detail setting off in this mode does help a little to ease this.

Is this what you are asking about?

I'm in 1080/60i - NTSC

Try playing your footage back in the FCP timeline. ClipBrowser is great for quick previews, but clips can look shaky, you may also see a jelly like ripple through some of your footage, again this will not be visible in FCP, or a rendered timeline.

Also how fast was the pan? If you pan too fast in 24 or 25p you get jitter on any camera (in case you didn't know!)

Do a little search and you'll find loooonnnggg chats about this. Big divide on whether or not it even exists, but I've seen it every time I use an EX. Do a search.
And don't be sidetracked by the settings and people talking about progressive footage having jitters, I shoot all progressive on loads of cameras and never see it. And as you say you were shooting interlaced anyway - I also saw it on 50i with a slow pan along my mantlepiece.
I'm not getting involved in this one this time, I get too much abuse!
Steve

Just to be clear, you shot in 60i.
Right to left pans are OK, left to right pans have jitter?


Thinking outside the square, it could be the head on your tripod. Remember to warm the head up.

Steve, the fact that you say you saw it in 50i doesn't exactly help your case at all, no wonder you get abuse!

Most of the loooong chats involve your view that there is a problem when almost everyone else doesn't see it. I'm editing EX footage every single day and I don't see it.

And don't be sidetracked by the settings and people talking about progressive footage having jitters, I shoot all progressive on loads of cameras and never see it. Steve
What are your settings for 25p on your EX without jitter? It's almost non existent on 30p but certainly on 24 & 25p on my EX3 camera as well as my supplier's demo EX3.

Steve, you keep banging on about the jitter you saw on one shot, yet despite many requests by others to see this footage so we can see what you are talking about you cannot either be bothered or don't want to post a sample. You have admitted to using far from perfect monitoring for evaluating the footage and you are making damaging statements about the way the EX handles motion without actually being able to substantiate them. Are you surprised that people are getting wound up?

I have posted side by side comparisons of the EX and other cameras that show no difference in the way the EX cameras and other progressive cameras portray motion, yet you still won't accept that the EX is capable of producing excellent results. If I were you I would sell your 700, buy a Varicam (as nothing else will do according to you) and go off and make wonderful wildlife films and be done with it.

There is a whole universe of wonderful well made HD programmes beyond the BBC NHU.

in response to the ORIGINAL Question - all my interlaced video looks jittery when played back the clip browser software but when editing etc its not there so figured it IS the software from sony that is causing that NOT the camera

play it direct from the camera into yr plasma and be rest assured its not there!

My 3-years experience with 25p HD video from Sony compact cameras (first the V1E, now the EX1) prove beyond any doubt that - provided some basic rules for camera/object motion are followed - any "judder", "jitter" or "jerkiness" problems that people tend to complain about are display-related (either poor hardware, or even more often, the software used).

Some of you may remember the V1E's 25p line-twitter saga; it also never existed in the footage itself but was created somewhere in the display hw/sw chain. Now similar "problems" are seen with the EX progressive footage being "jerky" - I can assure you it's not more so than a traditional film can be. Each film's frame is displayed twice in the projector; get a HD plasma capable of displaying each of your 25p HD video frame several times as well (with e.g. 100 Hz refresh rate for 25p; for 24p it would be 96 or 120 Hz), follow the basic rules for motion, and - above all - do NOT use crappy software players, and you will find that the EX's 24(5)p is OK motionwise (though some may prefer more temporal resolution - a matter of personal taste, of course).

In any case it would be good Steve, if you just upload a small raw sample of some secs for us who are considering this camera to see what is happening. As I was (and I am in Avid now forums for MC) many years in Pinnacle's forums, I was defending strongly my opinion as for Liquid being the best NLE among every other out there.Arguing with some people about that. Some times too harsh is the truth.I found after 6 or so years that there is nothing good comes out of this.Just relax and upload a sample (of raw footage if you can) so every other can benefit.

With respect.

This technical paper from the BBC may have some bearing on the topic under discussion:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP053.pdf

Pages 12 onwards discuss the issue of detail enhancement and how it can introduce the appearance of negative motion and judder.

I don't keep coming back to it myself, only responding when other people comment on it, it really doesn't matter to me as I don't use it, just reporting what I've seen, but always advise people to do their testing (obviously), don't expect any sensible person to buy or use anything on the strength of what they hear on a forum.

I don't own an EX3 but have access to one as I've said, and I will be doing some more tests with it and taking the footage into a post house to have a proper look at, as it would be a useful bit of kit in a lot of circumstances as long as it's OK with fast moving action.

And it's not just one shot where I noticed an issue, it was every time I tested it.

Alister, I tried exporting a clip on FCP to an MPEG4 so it wouldn't be huge but it looked awful, very jerky because of the compression or the power of my PC I don't know but no-one could judge anything from that. I'm not an editor so it's not as easy for me to do it as some of you guys who are used to it - it's not that I can't be bothered. I also did assume that playing from the camera via component out to an HD plasma would give a true image of what's on the card, but again not my area of expertise.

I don't know why I'd need to sell my 700 and buy a Varicam, it's the EX I'm not sure about the 700 is OK. And I've never said the Varicam is perfect, far from it, being 720 is a big issue in my book. I don't think there's anything ideal for the wildlife business just now, and I know my views are shared by many other freelance wildlife cameramen, we just have to make do with what is available and deal with its limitations. Be nice if some company had the resources to make a fully wildlife-orientated camera.

Steve

upload a sample (of raw footage if you can) so every other can benefit.

This might be a very VERY bad idea of mine, but I'm going to share some footage and some experiments with the community here. This is NOT an advert for my wildlife camera skills (!), but does show 25p and 50p footage in SD and how the encoding can affect the output.

http://www.mdma.tv/interlace/PROG_V_INTERLACE.dmg.zip

It's a 250 MB download of a Mac .dmg file of a PAL DVD. American friends please take note, because an American DVD player that can play PAL is rarer than chickens' dentures.

It's primarily a demonstration of 're-interlacing' from 720p50, but of the four variations, there is one bit that demonstrates significantly more 'stuttery' movement, and it would be great to see if others spot it (IOW, not just me seeing things).

If you do decide to go through the rigmarole of downloading the .dmg and burning a DVD from it, please note that it really needs to be viewed on a consumer display device, not a computer monitor, as you'll need to see the difference between interlaced and progressive video.

But the chickens are cute.

This is not a bad idea but this is how you explain something to others to see.
I don't see how this is a bad idea. Only we PC users we need to convert the .dmg to .iso using Magic ISO.

I don't see how this is a bad idea.

It's got some very amateur (embarassing focus) camerawork from me early last year, whilst I was learning how to use the EX1. And we have some very pro cameramen here... Just so long as we're clear that this ain't no showreel!

The only things which comes in my mind is about any connection of jitter with bad focus.
Because if you see rushes left out from future films you can feel the shame for the professional arriflex cameramen. But those things are happening all the time.
Thanks for sharing. I will burn this and watch to my Daewoo desktop DVD at my old 21'' PAL TV.

Use Ultra Iso (http://www.ezbsystems.com/ultraiso/download.htm) and from Menu>Tools>Convert the image to .iso.

From the first check on my PC's screen of the .vob files after converting the .dmg to .iso this seems to be a software converter problem. I will follow on this.

I watch the DVD at both interlaced and progressive.
The Image even burned to an SD DVD Looks amazing.
I can't see any problem whatsoever.

I can't see any problem whatsoever.

Thank you! I think I may be going mad, but I believe there may be an issue when progressive material gets treated as interlaced at the encoding stage, in that progressive material goes on an interlaced timeline, gets exported and maybe partially deinterlaced? I thought I could see choppier motion on the progressive section of the interlaced movie.

After a couple of hours of scrutiny, all I see is chickens...

I will ask though why progressive material to go on an interlaced timeline?
I am shooting 25p with my small HV30 and as we know this outputs 50i from the firewire.
I can see some jerkiness if I want to because that thing isn't real progressive and it isn't real interlaced.
The truth is we are facing images never seen before.
I mean even from my tiny HV30 the footage looks peculiar.
It isn't film but it doesn't look like video either.
Especially if you shoot like I do with Cinemode and 25p.
Over 10-15 years I haven't seen anything like that.
And we aren't yet in era that we are seeing the full beauty (or else) of those images.

Ok thanks for the help guys. Looks like when i play full screen through the clip browser it has the jitter on my 24" Monitor. But looks normal when i play it back in the browser preview screen and it doesn't have the jitter.

i feel better now.

I'll test it through FCP and my more powerful system this week.

thanks for the feedback.

I will ask though why progressive material to go on an interlaced timeline?

This DVD was a test, so I included some odd combinations so I could spot mistakes in the future - hence 'interlacing' 25p footage. In theory it shouldn't damage things, but what of the display technology? Will it try to deinterlaced interlaced footage based on progressive source? That's why there are some illogical combinations, and why I think there may be an issue there with some displays.

It isn't film but it doesn't look like video either.
Especially if you shoot like I do with Cinemode and 25p.
Over 10-15 years I haven't seen anything like that.
And we aren't yet in era that we are seeing the full beauty (or else) of those images.

It's the low resolution HD look. It's an ungodly combination of broader exposure latitude, no interlacing, wider depth of field and occasional shutter issues. As it extends the realm of the DSR-570 which shoots most of the material in my domain, I quite like it.

But I am considering following in Mr Bloom's footsteps with a 35mm adaptor...

Sorry to join this discussion after it has cooled, but I googled 25P jitter ex3, as I watched some footage I shot on my newish ex3 on a 32" presentation monitor last night and swallowed my heart when I saw how jittery a slowish follow pan was. I persuaded myself it was because I had steadyshot on and my shoulder brace and tiffenstick combo is almost tripod like in its stability. Now am I understanding correctly that it might be a monitoring equip problem? If so, when will it disappear in the process of editing?

Lets look at some of the issues here:

Monitors:
Almost all PC monitors run at 60Hz, so feeding a computer monitor with 50i, 25P or 24P will produce strange artifacts as the computer/monitor has to add odd numbers of extra frames to pad the frame rate up to 60Hz. This will be un-predictable and depend on the the individual set up as to how bad this will appear.
Consumer LCD's and Plasma screens are progressive devices, but if you feed them a component signal they may try to de-interlace it. This could add undesired artifacts. I have come across some Plasma screens that run at 30Hz regardless of what is being fed into them, again this causes problems. Also the bigger the screen the worse any judder will look.

The only way to be sure of seeing the image correctly is with a proper high grade HD monitor with HDSDi.

Computers and software:
This is a minefield with different computers handling HD playback differently depending on many factors. One player may work well, while an edit package is not so good and vice versa. I would never trust the motion playback on any computer monitor. The only time I would believe what I am seeing is if using a Decklink or AJA HDSDi card on a properly spec'd Mac or PC feeding a Pro grade HDSDi monitor.

24/25P
There will always be more judder with 24/25P than with 50/60i. The frame refresh rate is half as high. Also if you don't use any shutter on camera moves the image will soften. On the one hand this can reduce the appearance of judder, but it may make the camera movement more obvious. The general advice is to always use a 180 degree shutter (1/50th,1/160th). Shooting at 24/25P means being careful with pans and other camera moves to avoid the speeds that cause judder. This depends on focal length, distance to the subject and depth of field.

Picture Detail:
The higher the resolution of the image the worse any judder will appear as your eyes/brain have more to latch on to in each frame. High detail levels will make the problem worse, monitors with too much aperture correction or detail enhancement (very common on consumer TV's) will only make things worse.

Large Screen Size:
The bigger the screen and the closer you sit to the screen the worse the judder will appear. Just go to and watch an IMAX movie and look at the judder in most of those!

In conclusion there are many reasons why your 24/25P may look wrong. Some may be simply poor monitoring, some may just be the limitations of shooting at a low frame rate. But I have yet to see any evidence of an EX camera producing a progressive image that is any different to any other progressive camera, other than in some cases picture skew. But skew doesn't affect judder and is a whole topic of conversation on it's own.

Thanks for the detailed reply Alister. Having shot interlaced for too many years, 25p is newish to me. However I did shoot a broadcast doc last year with an XL2 in 25P 50 and it was not problematic. This footage I viewed for the first time at the BBC Bristol on one of their large presentation screens, played out of my hard drive through a macbook pro. It was really dreadful. Hence I am hoping that steady shot was playing a part. I haven't had a chance to shoot again since then and am now heading on holiday so I want to forget about it for two weeks. For me the proof of the pudding has to be screening it on a home telly screen as that is my market. (hopefully)

This footage I viewed for the first time at the BBC Bristol on one of their large presentation screens, played out of my hard drive through a macbook pro. It was really dreadful.

That's probably the problem. It's the worst case scenario. 25P played back via a computer onto a large screen. The computer will be converting the footage from 25fps to 60fps on the fly. It will be adding 2.4 padding frames for every original frame. It will be nothing to do with steady shot.

That's probably the problem. It's the worst case scenario. 25P played back via a computer onto a large screen. The computer will be converting the footage from 25fps to 60fps on the fly. It will be adding 2.4 padding frames for every original frame. It will be nothing to do with steady shot.

IMHO, it doesn't need to be that way, Alister. I don't know about nVidia, but my ATI card's driver has settings for PAL (HD)TV output (via DVI->HDMI), where I can set the refresh rate to 50, or 100 Hz.

Using this setting, I can watch my 25p video (both from HDD and BD) without excessive judder, even though my 50" Panasonic (refreshing at 100 Hz) plasma is hanging above my computer post at just 1m from my eyes!

Obviously I am New to the EX3 and HD Video. I am not sure this is related to those but i'll ask anyway.

I recorded some Video on my EX3. Basic interior shots....all looked fine. But when i panned left to Right and played the footage back the video had a jitter/slight freeze to it. All Factory Settings. I didn't change anything

Has anyone had this happen, and why would this be happening?

i was playing it back through my mac in the Clip Browser Software.

I see the same thing shooting the same way. I shows up on an LCD computer monitor using any player I have including VLC.

But it doesn't render out that way after editing.

John

Piotr, Macs tend to lock themselves to 60Hz for any kind of LCD display. If you can get your PC or Mac to output at the correct frame rate and frame size ie 1920x1080 then you may be fine, but the majority of setups run at 60Hz.

Piotr, Macs tend to lock themselves to 60Hz for any kind of LCD display. If you can get your PC or Mac to output at the correct frame rate and frame size ie 1920x1080 then you may be fine, but the majority of setups run at 60Hz.

Fair enough, Alister - I don't know much about Macs :)

If you can get your PC or Mac to output at the correct frame rate and frame size ie 1920x1080 then you may be fine

Only way to achieve this properly AFAIK on the Mac is to use a Matrox MXO.