Overall, the EX is better in low light but I can't help but wonder about the low light performance I would see if I was able to set the shutter at 1/30th (in 60i mode), as I used to do this often with my Z1.

Is there something I'm missing? Why wouldn't Sony make a 1/2 frame rate setting available on this cam like most other pro cams?

(The specialized slow shutter settings are not very usable with motion in the shot)

Shutter OFF is at frame rate 1/30 for 30fps. 1/24 for 1/24fps. 1/25 for 25fps.

Shutter OFF is at frame rate 1/30 for 30fps. 1/24 for 1/24fps. 1/25 for 25fps.

ok time for a dumb question. How does one turn off the shutter on the EX1?

I see only an option for 1/60th and beyond - no OFF.

There's a physical switch underneath the lens.

Ha! So I wasn't the only one to ask this "dumb" question. (I asked the same question about a month ago) :)

the user manual is YOUR friend

The manual is not my friend (a little sarcasm).

Back to my original thought. I miss the 1/30 shutter speed in 60i.

The EX1 can't do it.

Please tell me I'm wrong.

I think you better reread these posts and the manual. Apparently you're not understanding.
There are only so many ways people can say it can and it's in the manual.

Craig,

I don't think you are picking up what I'm throwing down to you.

In 30p with shutter off I am getting 1/30 shutter. No problem. But...

In 60i with shutter off the shutter speed is 1/60.

Back to my original point. I miss 1/30 in 60i. The EX1 won't do it.

Craig
wouldn't 1/30th in 60Hz be the same as SLS mode accumulating 2 frames? Does the 1/30th setting on your Z1 give you 60 distinct images per second or 30? If it's 30 then I think SLS: 2 is your answer.

Craig,

I don't think you are picking up what I'm throwing down to you.

In 30p with shutter off I am getting 1/30 shutter. No problem. But...

In 60i with shutter off the shutter speed is 1/60.

Back to my original point. I miss 1/30 in 60i. The EX1 won't do it.


Read the posts again. SHUTTER OFF IS 1/30 AT 60i (which is 30fps).

SHUTTER OFF IS FRAME RATE.

I think people didn't take their video math 101.

30p and 60i are BOTH 30fps. (actually 29.97fps or 59.94i). Shutter off is 1/30 whether 30 progressive frames or 30 interlace frames.

SLS2 is TWO FRAME ACCUMULATION. At 30fps that's 1/15.

Interlaced video has TWO FIELDS FOR EACH FRAME.

Craig Seeman,
I don't think shouting is called for. It doesn't get your point across any clearer and just gives a bad impression. Also, let's not make assumptions about people, we are all here to learn in one way or another.
As for video math, with all due respect, 30Hz and 60Hz are not the same thing. Besides the i and p nomenclature has nothing to do with frame-rates rather frame-formats. There is no such thing as an interlaced frame-rate.
Since at 60Hz (which we all know is actually 60,000/1001) the sensors gather light for half the time they do at 30Hz, the shutter speed is effectively doubled. So 1/15th at 30Hz would give 1/30th at 60Hz.
I don't own a Z1, that's why in my post I asked how many distinct frames Craig Terrot got with his Z1 at 60Hz with a 1/30th shutter.

Omar, Sorry you feel I'm shouting. The concepts are simple. The OP has a Z1 I'm sure (or at least suspect) they are familiar with its functions and trying to compare to EX series.

i60 is 30 frames per second (59.97 fields per second).
p30 is also 30 frames per second.

Your use of Hz is misleading.
i60 is 60 fields per second which is 30 frames per second.

1/15 is a measure in seconds. 1/15 of a second is just that. It has nothing to do with Hz.

A frame on the other hand can be of various durations.
i60 is 30 frames per second
p60 is 60 frames per second
This is why Hz is misleading.

The OP asked about i60 which is the same frame rate as p30. BOTH are 30 frames a second.


Shutter speed doesn't "double." It's exactly what you set it to when using fractional time (as opposed to angle). It's impact on light gathering on the sensor is DIFFERENT at different field or frame rates.

Shutter off at either i60 or p30 is 1/30 of a second on the EX1.
Shutter off on the EX1 equals duration of a FRAME.
At i60 it is 1/30
at p30 it is 1/30
Both i60 and p30 are the same frame rate.

I'm sorry I can't answer your question about distinct frames Omar unless I unearth some of my archived Z1 video (I no longer own the Z1).

But I can clearly explain how the two cameras behave very differently:

[Z1U in 60i ,in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Now, I change the shutter from 1/60 to 1/30 and the image gets noticably brighter.

[EX1 in 60i, in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Turn shutter switch OFF and the image is exactly the same. No brightness increase.

My observation demonstrates that there is no change, in 60i, between 1/60 and shutter OFF.

Sorry Craig but you are wrong.

At 60i the shutter is 1/60th of a second. If it was 1/30th the shutter would be open for the entire frame, so both fields would be exposed for the full 1/30th of a second, effectively making a progressive frame. In interlace mode each field is exposed for 1/60th of a second then recorded one after the other so 1/60th plus 1/60th added together makes 1/30th.

If the OP wants the same effect then he should shoot at 30P with no shutter which would in effect be the same as a 1/30th shutter at 60i.

When you use a 1/30th shutter on a Z1 only one field is used for the full frame so you halve the vertical resolution.

At 60i the shutter is 1/60th of a second. If it was 1/30th the shutter would be open for the entire frame, so both fields would be exposed for the full 1/30th of a second, effectively making a progressive frame. In interlace mode each field is exposed for 1/60th of a second then recorded one after the other so 1/60th plus 1/60th added together makes 1/30th.

If the OP wants the same effect then he should shoot at 30P with no shutter which would in effect be the same as a 1/30th shutter at 60i.

When you use a 1/30th shutter on a Z1 only one field is used for the full frame so you halve the vertical resolution.

This make sense.

This is a clear difference between the two cams.

[EX1 in 60i, in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Turn shutter switch OFF and the image is exactly the same. No brightness increase.

Interesting. Works in 30p but NOT in 60i.
In 30p Shutter Off changes to 1/30th. You can see this by setting to 1/60 and then turning shutter off.
In 60i it's exactly as you note. Nothing happens. It stays at 1/60. Time to complain to Sony about this.

Alister you are correct and while I did not own a Z1, the PD-170, which I do have, apparently behaves the same way the OP describes the Z1. You were able to use shutter 1/30 in i60. Yes it would lower the horizontal resolution for sure but that's a tool available to the camera operator.

During a shoot in which the lighting becomes low it may make more sense to drop the resolution then to reboot the camera into 30p.

Omar, Sorry you feel I'm shouting.

No worries.

i60 is 30 frames per second (59.97 fields per second).
p30 is also 30 frames per second.

They are both displayed at 30fps, not captured that way. One has twice the temporal resolution of the other and consequently half the exposure. It is my understanding that i60 is captured as p60, recorded as i60 and finally displayed at 30fps. If you had two cameras at the very same spot simultaneously recording a scene, one at i60 and the other at p30, every odd feild in i60 would be identical to the frames in p30 (disregarding the skipped scanlines).

Your use of Hz is misleading.
i60 is 60 fields per second which is 30 frames per second.

1/15 is a measure in seconds. 1/15 of a second is just that. It has nothing to do with Hz.

Anything that is measured per second has everything to do with Hertz by its very definition (1Hz = 1 cycle per second ). A 1/15th shutter-speed would be 0.067Hz.

Shutter speed doesn't "double." It's exactly what you set it to when using fractional time (as opposed to angle).

The suggestion was for shutter off, so no shutter speed is being set, just an equivalent. If there's no difference in illumination between shutter on at 1/60th and shutter off when in i60 mode then clearly they are one and the same thing. You get the same amount of illumination with shutter at 1/60th in i60 mode as you would with shutter off in p30 mode. If you don't beleive me try it for yourself.

Both i60 and p30 are the same frame rate.

Only when displayed. Even then you get a different effect from them. The two feilds of an interlaced frame do not make one progressive frame.

I'm sorry I can't answer your question about distinct frames Omar unless I unearth some of my archived Z1 video (I no longer own the Z1).

But I can clearly explain how the two cameras behave very differently:

[Z1U in 60i ,in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Now, I change the shutter from 1/60 to 1/30 and the image gets noticably brighter.

[EX1 in 60i, in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Turn shutter switch OFF and the image is exactly the same. No brightness increase.

My observation demonstrates that there is no change, in 60i, between 1/60 and shutter OFF.


Was the motion you got with the Z1U smooth with a 1/30th shutter? If not then I strongly suggest SLS Frame: 2.

Was the motion you got with the Z1U smooth with a 1/30th shutter? If not then I strongly suggest SLS Frame: 2.

It was, at times, muddy. People dancing fast, for instance, would appear rubbery. I had to be selective about when to use it. I especially avoided using it if there was any fast motion in the frame, but it worked well for things like a very slow first dance. Or for a distant balcony shot in dim church.

At 60i, shutter off, the exposure is 1/60. I seemed to remember that we'd discussed this previously and I measured the shutter speed because I believed that shutter "off" would be 1/30. Actually we were talking about 50i, but that is irrelevant. see: shutter on or off - Page 2 - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=137636&highlight=serena&page=2)
So Craig's "complaint" is valid.

I followed this thread, but I am wondering if my concern is the same as the one outlined here.
In my old camera (Sony VX2000), I had the possibility of shooting at 1/15th of a second and that gave me really clear pictures in the dark. Unfortunately with the EX1 that I have now, the slowest speed is 1/40th when using the 1080p30 HQ format. But when I choose 1080p24 HQ the slowest speed is 1/32nd. Same thing with choosing the format HQ720p. There is no way to get a speed as slow as 1/15th of a second.
Why Sony did not provide this possibility in this camera?

Why Sony did not provide this possibility in this camera?

My old FX1 had shutter speeds down to 1/3, which gave interesting effects. The EX instead has frame accumulation (2 to 8, or 16/32/64), which is the equivalent.

You can also use EX SLOW SHUTTER for slow shutter speed effects. It's basically the same as SLS but with even slower settings.

Francois: 1/15th is two frames at 30P/60i, so using SLS set to 2 frames will give the same result.

Francois: 1/15th is two frames at 30P/60i, so using SLS set to 2 frames will give the same result.