I have been watching this forum for over a year now gathering as much info as possible before jumping in and finally purchasing the PMW-EX1. Since it looks like we have an excellent (and relatively inexpensive) storage media (MxR adaptor and SDHC cards) I figured now is the time!

My question to the forum: what would be the best format to shoot in : 1080 60i or 1080 24p.

A little bankground - I am a hobbyist and my videos are of family vacations, activities, my children's birthday parties etc - sort of equally split between indoor and outdoor shots and some with lots of motion (the kids are 7-9 yrs old). All of my videos end up on blu-ray (I have been authoring blu-ray discs with DVD-It PROHD for over a year now).

I have always shot in 1080 60i on my present cameras - Sony FX-1 and Sony V1U but figured I should use the PMW-EX1 to get the best possible image and performance. I have watched the Vortex Media Instructional DVD and Doug Jensen certainly shies away from interlaced in any format.

Comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

I don't think there is a "Best" to be honest. Personally I'll choose progressive every time because I just prefer the way it looks and not having to deal with interlacing at edit and export stages.

24p will look a whole lot different to 60i, best thing to do is shoot in both and see which you like the best.

If you are happy with the FX1 results, in 60i, then you will be happy with EX1 60i. The point of 24p is to get you a more film like cadence. In using it, in your actions and kid tracking shots, and hand held situations, you will see 24p stutter. It is inevitible in such shooting situations. Filmmakers shooting 24p will shoot, instinctively and by training to avoid such stutter. Careful Tripod panning and careful hand held shooting is what makes 24p stay looking good. You need to experiment a bit to see if you are okay with those issues.

Totally depends on what you're shooting and delivery format

I think that 1080x1920 Blu Ray is actually a 60i format, so it's kind of a natural to shoot & edit in 60i for Blu Ray delivery- unless you are trying to create some particular "look".

I think that 1080x1920 Blu Ray is actually a 60i format, so it's kind of a natural to shoot & edit in 60i for Blu Ray delivery- unless you are trying to create some particular "look".

Actually 1080 24p is a blu-ray legal format - tried it out with my DVD-It-PROHD software and it was accepted without re-encoding. I think all of the movies (commercial) are delivered in 1080 24p.

If you are happy with the FX1 results, in 60i, then you will be happy with EX1 60i. The point of 24p is to get you a more film like cadence. In using it, in your actions and kid tracking shots, and hand held situations, you will see 24p stutter. It is inevitible in such shooting situations. Filmmakers shooting 24p will shoot, instinctively and by training to avoid such stutter. Careful Tripod panning and careful hand held shooting is what makes 24p stay looking good. You need to experiment a bit to see if you are okay with those issues.

I have been very careful with panning and my hand held shots but even with 60i there can be stutter - I suppose that is magnified with 24p. Good point to consider.

If a lot of your stuff is going to end up on the web on YouTube or Vimeo or if you are hosting your own videos, then progressive makes more sense (most of the time). You won't have to deal with panning artifacts that show up in web based video which you will most likely get when you shoot in interlaced.

If you shoot in 30p then you can convert your orginals into DV (std def.) format. If you shoot 24p the conversion software, Sony's EX Clip Browser, won't let you export to DV if you are shooting 24p. You can down convert to DV in other software from 24p but using Sony's free app you have to use 60i or 30p to be able to down convert to DV.

You should definitely spend some time tinkering with 24p though and see if you like the look.

Barry
You are indeed correct- Blu Ray 1080 60i, or 24p, but not 30p.
I've been watching this for years. Some folks like 24p, and others 60i. They all have great reasons why one is better than the other. It's almost like P.C. vs. Mac.
Honestly, shooting 24p requires close attention and careful technique but you can get a nice looking result. I think of it as being more suitable for controlled scenes as in narrative film production. For run n' gun shooting, 60i is pretty bulletproof, and there are plenty of good solutions for downconvert/deinterlace of 1080x1920 60i footage for display on the web and other delivery.
Best thing you can do is try it all and see what you like.

Barry
You are indeed correct- Blu Ray 1080 60i, or 24p, but not 30p.
I've been watching this for years. Some folks like 24p, and others 60i. They all have great reasons why one is better than the other. It's almost like P.C. vs. Mac.
Honestly, shooting 24p requires close attention and careful technique but you can get a nice looking result. I think of it as being more suitable for controlled scenes as in narrative film production. For run n' gun shooting, 60i is pretty bulletproof, and there are plenty of good solutions for downconvert/deinterlace of 1080x1920 60i footage for display on the web and other delivery.
Best thing you can do is try it all and see what you like.

I have been shooting HDV for over 4 years now and have always used 60i and have been pleased with it. However, after watching Doug Jensen's- Vortex Media instructional DVD I was left with the impression that not shooting 24p would be a "waste" with a camera of this capability. Sounds like just another personal opinion and there is no absolute concensus as to which format is best. For my purposed it sounds like I should continue with 60i.

Doug's DVD is an example of what I made reference to- it is a controlled studio shoot wherein the talent talks & moves, but the camera doesn't (or mostly doesn't). It's a great set up for 24p. One of the few times I've used 24p was a similar set up. The only time my camera moved was to track the subject a bit, or creep the zoom.
But most real time stuff- family, events. weddings, travel, etc., you need to be really careful to get away with 24p IMO.

I've put 1080 30P to Blu-Ray using Toast 10 (on a Mac). But maybe Toast re-encoded it....dunno. Worked great and looked great though.

I'm really tempted to switch to 60i though. Most of my stuff is getting converted to DV or some type of Standard Def format (usually interlaced) 60i let's a lot more light in too.

I've done that as well, where I have edited in 30p and encoded for BR. I think the encoding just breaks the 30 frames into 60i. It looks exactly the same to me as the 30p, which makes sense.
When I was shooting DV, and HDV, I would have issues due to interlacing, some of them really annoying. Ever since switching to 1920x1080 sq. pix. with the EX and AVCHD, and editing with an .avi DI (Cineform), I am finding no real downside to shooting 60i. In fact, it has become my default format

Doug's DVD is an example of what I made reference to- it is a controlled studio shoot wherein the talent talks & moves, but the camera doesn't (or mostly doesn't). It's a great set up for 24p. One of the few times I've used 24p was a similar set up. The only time my camera moved was to track the subject a bit, or creep the zoom.
But most real time stuff- family, events. weddings, travel, etc., you need to be really careful to get away with 24p IMO.

I don't know where people have gotten the impression that I shoot 24P. I am one of the biggest anti-24P you'll find. 99% of my DVDs are shot at 30P and there's only a couple of 24P shots thrown in for just for comparison purposes.

The only reason to shoot 24P is if you are truly going to transfer to film. 30P provides the non-interlaced look of progressive without the jittery after taste.

Doug

I've done that as well, where I have edited in 30p and encoded for BR. I think the encoding just breaks the 30 frames into 60i. It looks exactly the same to me as the 30p, which makes sense

Bob, I'm not expert in this area but I agree with you 100%.

30P transferred to 60i gives you two identical interlaced fields that look just like one progressive frame when they are put together. I don't think you can tell the difference between native 30P and 30P that has been transferred to 60i and that's why Blu-ray doesn't even bother with a 30P mode. It would be redundant.

Doug

Bob, I'm not expert in this area but I agree with you 100%.

30P transferred to 60i gives you two identical interlaced fields that look just like one progressive frame when they are put together. I don't think you can tell the difference between native 30P and 30P that has been transferred to 60i and that's why Blu-ray doesn't even bother with a 30P mode. It would be redundant.

Doug

Actually, in your Vortex Media Video you do recommend 30p as the format of choice. So you are saying that it is preferable to shoot in 30P and then re-encode to the 60i format to make it blu-ray "legal" as opposed to shooting directly in 60i?

I was just concerned about possible quality deterioration from the encoding process but I suppose with a good program that should not be of concern? (I use Procoder 3 from Grass Valley - Edius)

Barry,

You're right. In the DVD I recommend 1080 30P as my preferred format for SHOOTING. I stand by that 100%.
1) Interlaced looks awful and is on it's way out.
2) 1080 (not 720) is the native resoltuon of the camera, the standard for HD monitors, stock footage, most broadcast signals, etc.
3) Broadcast television, DVDs, etc, playback at 30 fps (or 60i) not 24 fps.

But that's all I say on my DVDs. I do not address any of the post-production issues, format conversions, output to Blu-ray, etc. My DVDs are about the camcorders and not the entire XDCAM workflow. Once I have lead the viewer through the steps to get the clips imported and archived, thats where I end it. There are too many different NLEs, too many ways that footage needs to be used, too many delivery formats, etc. to even get started down that slippery slope in a DVD that is supposed to be about the camera.

Plus, another reason I don't get into the editing and output is that there's nothing unique about the XDCAM footage once it is on your computer. Whether you shot 30P, 24P, 25P, 60i, or 50i, the workflow and issues involved in post will be pretty much the same no matter what camera you shot it with. Yes, there are some diferences between codecs, but not much. I try to stay focused on issues that directly relate to using the camera I'm teaching.

Doug

So you are saying that it is preferable to shoot in 30P and then re-encode to the 60i format to make it blu-ray "legal" as opposed to shooting directly in 60i?

One more thing. You seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote in an earlier post.

30P transferred to 60i will retain it's progressive "look" even though technically it's now interlaced. (see the earlier post)

That is NOT the same thing as shooting 60i in the first place. Shooting 60i and delivering 60i will always look interlaced (unless you do somthing to it in post).

Some people might like the look of interlaced, but I think it looks terrible.

Doug

One more thing. You seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote in an earlier post.

30P transferred to 60i will retain it's progressive "look" even though technically it's now interlaced. (see the earlier post)

That is NOT the same thing as shooting 60i in the first place. Shooting 60i and delivering 60i will always look interlaced (unless you do somthing to it in post).

Some people might like the look of interlaced, but I think it looks terrible.

Doug


Doug

Thanks for the feedback. Your last comment above was what I was really looking for - i.e. it would be better to shoot in 30p than 60i if one wants to take full advantage of the capabilities of this camera. Even though I will be editing in native XDCAM-EX format there will still have to be re-encoding into elementary streams for my blu-ray authoring app. so it doesn't really make sense to be concerned over 30p to 60i conversion.

3) Broadcast television, DVDs, etc, playback at 30 fps (or 60i) not 24 fps.

I brought this up a little while back and folks jumped on me like white on rice.

If broadcast, DVDs, etc., play back at 30fsp and you've shot in 24p, then where are those additional six frames coming from?

There is no way on God's green earth than anyone can convinence me that 24p looks better than 30p. Why? Because that means 20% of the image being shown never existed! That has to have a degrading affect on the final image.

If it were being shown at 24fps, it would an entirely different story.

Signed,
Uncle Ben

I like 30p for most projects. A little smoother than 24p, and as mentioned translates to 60i if you need it without motion judder.

Shoot 24p if the choppiness works for your story and if going to 24p DVD.

Josh, won't the NTSC TVs still require the DVD player to use pulldown to show the program at 30fps?

Hi Jay, older TVs will, but newer TVs have have chips that analyze the video signal in real time and can sense the 3:2 pulldown pattern and remove the extra fields on the fly, and actually reconstruct and display the original 24 full frames in realtime.