Here are the rest of the grabs, and examples of the vignette

I would like to comment on the green vignette issue. I too did a similar test like Derek and pointed the camera to a white wall. The vignette is alarming when observed in this way BUT in the real world, unless you are not filming a very pale plain background, the vignette is much less visible. I'm not saying it does not exist but it might be very easily missed by the client especially in event videos where the shots are usually short and change frequently and the shot consists of other eye catching moving images.

Also remember that if the resultant footage is seen on 40" or bigger screens, the eye will have to travel from the centre to the edge of the screen to really notice the vignette.

I'm not happy with the outcome but in the absence of any real alternative and in view of the horrible blacks being produced by the EX series, I must say that the 486 / True cut 680 is a must have for the time being for any EX camera owner.

I just picked up a 680 and have yet to do any tests, but it would have been SO nice for Sony to admit that their camera has a problem with IR and offer this filter to the folks who b**ch loud and long enough. I'm sure they would work out some sort of large purchase deal with Schneider/B&W to make this happen. I know it wouldn't make everybody happy, but it sure would have taken the sting out of having to pay almost $300 for one of the little buggers.

Good news from Ryan Avery at Schneider. The Tru Cut 680 will be marketed as a solution for the IR issue with the EX cameras making it much easier for the filter to be obtained.

Schneider acknowledges that at full wide there will be a green/cyan vignette, but as many have found this is just not that noticeable unless against a light neutral background, and I have found zooming in to just 15mm will make it completely disappear. I personally feel the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta anyway, and this filter only needs to be used when the IR issue is present. It is not a filter to leave on the camera all the time.

I also noticed I neglected to add one of my frame grabs.... the 6300K no ND with 680. Somehow I missed that grab, but the 680 worked perfectly in that shot as it did with all the others. (who'd want to shoot at f16 with an EX anyway?)

This filter really does the trick..... and no need for multiple filters to have to deal with it. No light loss either.

it's nice to be back in the black.

Thanks Derek.

I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter).

But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is.

Thanks Derek.

I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter).

But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is.

Hi, Piotr-
I can see where this would be a problem for you with muliti-cam shoots.... the only solution there would be if all the cameras were EXs and all using the 680.

I did notice that the vignette all but disappeared when zooming in to as little as 15mm. If you stay zoomed in somewhat, it should not be too much of an issue, but of course then you're limited in your framing.

Nothing's ever easy, is it?
good luck-

Zooming in to 15mm is a good solution?????????????????

I own the W/A lens for the EX-3. It's wide end is 4mm. No way will I consider the green cast acceptable. Maybe that works for wedding videos but not for the clients I serve in broadcast, commercials and corporate.

As I have repeatedly said..... none of the solutions are perfect. I'm happy with the filter, but realize it's limitations. If I need something to be black that is not due to the IR contamination, at least I know I can resolve it. It remains to be seen how much the green cast will be a problem, but I know I can get around that, too if I sacrifice going too wide.

I think with this issue, it's all about compromises. At least until Sony figures a way to resolve it.

Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

yes one is the name for the square 4x4 filter , the other for the round one

I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red.

The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through

Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month.

Lenny Levy

I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red.

The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through

Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month.

Lenny Levy

Excellent. Please keep us posted.

Thanks

Since I grade all my shots in Apple's Color, it's not a major deal to create and apply a color-correction vignette during post to deal with the green vignette problem.

Of course it would be best if we didn't have to compensate at all. But if getting good blacks throughout is of primary importance, then such workarounds may have to be tolerated for now.

In my own case, it's a toss-up. If I do get a filter, it means I have to get a larger mattebox since the mattebox I have now won't fit around Sony's 0.8x WA adapter. And I'd have to get a filter for both cameras.

Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

The 486 and the Tru-Cut 680 are manufactured with similar processes and are designed to create the same cut rate. Both cut around 680nm so the effect is the same on the Sony EX cameras.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Here's a horrible example of how the EX1 behaves with standard lens and how a 486 instantly fixes a very nasty problem.

The materials which really suffer are man-made "silk look" products, the lapels on the male singer, but mostly the conductor whose shirt was black, as well as various other parts of suits and dresses.

Paul

What I would like to see is Tiffen offer three filters that would fit the Sony ND filter wheel inside the camera so we could swap out the parts and never have to deal with external fixes again. Better yet, HEY SONY.......................

Since I grade all my shots in Apple's Color, it's not a major deal to create and apply a color-correction vignette during post to deal with the green vignette problem.

Not easy if you zoom in on a shot; the green will shift outward as you zoom in and finally disapear at about 15mm. You'd have to keyframe your color correction.

Not easy if you zoom in on a shot; the green will shift outward as you zoom in and finally disapear at about 15mm. You'd have to keyframe your color correction.

I keyframe spot corrections all the time. With the way Color works it's easily done.

Dean, Its great that you can correct your own green vignetting but you are apparently editing your own work. Many of us are not. I simply cannot hand a client an image with green vignetting and tell him don't worry you can fix that in color. Its out of the question.

His response would be - why are you using a defective camera on my job?

Dean, Its great that you can correct your own green vignetting but you are apparently editing your own work. Many of us are not. I simply cannot hand a client an image with green vignetting and tell him don't worry you can fix that in color. Its out of the question.

His response would be - why are you using a defective camera on my job?

The current option would be to hand over footage with contaminated blacks. Until a better solution is put on the market, there's not much choice. Either fix it, or be stuck with how things are.

That's true, and why I'm hoping this Tiffen thing might work out.

I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red.

The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through

Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month.

Lenny Levy

And this will not be a Hot Mirror filter? It will work with W/A lenses???

That's true, and why I'm hoping this Tiffen thing might work out.

I could certainly be wrong about this (sure wouldn't be the first time) but my understanding about the Tiffen Color Core filters is that they are simply filters utilizing a color dye meant to correct for the far red contamination when you white balance through them. Since using ND filters allow more far red and less visible light to reach the sensor, this is why Tiffen manufactures the filter with different levels of dye for each level of ND that might be used. The more ND, the more color needed to to correct for the higher level of far red contamination proportionate to the lower level of visible light entering the camera. If this filter is manufactured without ND, then it will only be able to be effectively used when NO ND is used along with it. So, that means no in camera ND, no external ND. Otherwise, there may still be some far red contamination getting through since there won't be enough dye in the filter to correct for it.

That's my current understanding, and I would love to be proved otherwise, because if the Tiffen filter would work with all levels of ND equally effectively, then this would be an ideal filter. Maybe Tiffen is planning something new.... but there is a reason the IRNDs are offered as separate filters for each level of ND.

Since they are not hot mirrors, I assume they can be used in any position (not necessarily the first filter light hits) and they can be used with wide lenses

I think Les hit the nail on the head.... if the Sony internal NDs had the Color Core technology built-in with the correct amount of dye in each filter... this would be nearly ideal. (still would have a problem if additional external NDs were used such as when doing interval recording in daylight hours) but this would be an effective solution for 99% of shooting scenarios. Maybe we'll see something like this in future iterations of the camera, and maybe some new internal NDs might someday be offered to those of us who might want to upgrade?

This also begs the question: If the issue can be resolved by using a color dye filter and balancing through it, why can't this be cured with a custom profile set up specifically to correct for it? I know this was brought up before in this post.... but I don't know if anyone ever made any progress with that path.

Sure enough, this IR contamination happened to me at last weekends wedding shoot. I had an FX1 and the EX1 side by side for the ceremony, and decided not to use the EX1 as it was strikingling obvious it was going to be more trouble than what it's worth.

I called Sony Prime support in the UK yesterday and I was told they never heard of this problem, surprise, surprise!

When I went on to explain, they told me it was the difference betweem cmos and ccd sensor. What rubbish! When I explained further they said could it be chromatic abberation! sign....

I tried to direct them to this forum and samples and was told they have a strict policy not to read forums, thx Sony!

I don't think the filter is a great solution, albeit the only one at present, but this has really wound me up!

I can't even look at my EX1 of late,lol.....

Cheers.

Derek your analysis is correct, and I'm hoping they may be able to create a dye filter without ND that would be usable under tungstun. The idea of incorporating into the filter wheels is a good one, but considering the post immediately above I wouldn't hold my breath.
I'm going to run some tests today to see how the Tiffen IR ND3 works under tungstun light to see if one without ND would be a good idea.
Wish me luck

Derek your analysis is correct, and I'm hoping they may be able to create a dye filter without ND that would be usable under tungstun. The idea of incorporating into the filter wheels is a good one, but considering the post immediately above I wouldn't hold my breath.
I'm going to run some tests today to see how the Tiffen IR ND3 works under tungstun light to see if one without ND would be a good idea.
Wish me luck

Good luck, Leonard!

I would expect that if Tiffen does offer the filter without ND, that it would work just fine under tungsten lighting. But that limits a resolution for that shooting scenario only.... okay if most of your shooting is indoors. This is why I shied away from the Tiffen filters, because I don't want to have to buy 3-4 different versions of that filter with ND to cover most of my outdoor shooting scenarios. (certainly not at $250-$300/filter) Also, this would limit using an ND indoors to reduce DOF (if the contamination is present).

You're right about Sony..... I won't hold my breath. I love their products, but they are the most intractable people to deal with when it comes to customer service!

Looking forward to what you discover-
cheers

Bad initial news

I just tested a Tiffen IR N6 and an IRN3 (and both stacked together) on my Ex-1 under daylight and tungstun.
I found no notable difference in the red contamination of the 2 fabrics I used at all. This is a quick response to my shots and it might be that one fabric scored better than the other, but my bad one for sure was not much different if at all.

Disappointing and surprising after Art Adams' conclusions.

Does anyone know the difference between the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR Slim and the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR? One is Slim and the other one is not.... but my question is does the not Slim model fit in the EX1 with the hood on?

Art and I plan to retest again next week so don't draw conclusions about IRND's yet.

Does anyone know the difference between the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR Slim and the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR? One is Slim and the other one is not.... but my question is does the not Slim model fit in the EX1 with the hood on?

Not sure about the UV/IR but I use the B+W 77mm UV and it fits with the lens hood on.

Does anyone know the difference between the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR Slim and the B+W 77mm 486 UV/IR? One is Slim and the other one is not.... but my question is does the not Slim model fit in the EX1 with the hood on?

Yes, it does.

Let me set the record straight as it stands right now:

I must make it abundently clear that the True-Cut IR 750 is the best solution for the RED camera and any RED user should buy that filter for their camera if using heavy ND filters. The application of the True-Cut IR 750 is only less than ideal for Sony EX users (but does work in some shooting conditions!).

Your patience is appreciated and we are likely to have a workable solution soon.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Hey Ryan - how's that "workable solution" coming?

Art Adams and I, together with Robert Orlando from Tiffen just completed some tests of Tiffen's prototype dye based IR filter for Tungstun on the EX-1. Actually it might be more accurate to say its a filter for "far red" problems rather than just IR, but I'll avoid that complexity.

I am extremely happy to report that Tiffen has appeared to completely solve this problem.

The prototype is slightly green so requires a white balance, but it completely solves red in black materials under tungstun or daylight and regardless of how much ND you shoot with. One filter solves all.

This was only the prototype and I don't know how soon it will be in commercial production. The final version I expect may be even make us happier.

Thanks and kudos to the engineering team at Tiffen.

Lenny Levy

Good news, Lenny. One question that I've been meaning to ask: When reference is made to ND filters used in conjunction with this (or any) IR filter, are you strictly speaking about "external" ND filters stacked under the IR filter OR does this apply to the internal ND filters in the Sony? Sorry for the "duhhh" question, but this has always been fuzzy for me.

any test under halogen light? ;)

Leonard, what about the loss of light induced by this filter? Is it still about half a stop? Or did Tiffen manage to reduce it?

external or internal ND's - same
Yes 1/2 stop , but who knows what the final version will be.

Leonard, does Tiffen's filter produce a green halo around the edges of the frame at the wide end of the lens? (B+W does a bit).

Leonard, does Tiffen's filter produce a green halo around the edges of the frame at the wide end of the lens? (B+W does a bit).

No, That is the significance of a dye based filter.

Thanks Leonard, Good news

I'm anxiously awaiting to pay $50 for this in 4X4 :)

Maybe Ryan will take back my 486? ;-)

Leonard,
I'm still a little confused.... I have understood that the Tiffen IRND filters had a specific amount of dye based on the ND level of the filter.
If the new Tiffen filter coming out without ND works with regular (non-IRND) ND filters, why is it that the IRND filters could not be combined with regular ND filters before? Is this a totally new approach?
Art says in his article that the Tiffen filter can only be used with IRND ND filters, but that it surprisingly did appear to work with the internal NDs in the camera which baffled him. He says it shouldn't work like that....

I continue to be baffled.....

Is this a totally new approach?

Yes.

We've been looking at lots of filters with the EX-1 and much of what Art initially said was based on assuming it was similar to other Sony's. We found though that the Tiffen IRND's had no effect on the EX-1 .

This whole business has been confusing and each camera has been different.

The new Tiffen filter seems to work extremely well and simplifies the issue on the Ex-1 . I'm not sure yet what role it play with other cameras. I hope they come out with a production version soon.

Lenny,

Are Tiffen going to supply it as a screw-on, or 4x5.25", or both?

Is this a totally new approach?

Yes.

We've been looking at lots of filters with the EX-1 and much of what Art initially said was based on assuming it was similar to other Sony's. We found though that the Tiffen IRND's had no effect on the EX-1 .

This whole business has been confusing and each camera has been different.

The new Tiffen filter seems to work extremely well and simplifies the issue on the Ex-1 . I'm not sure yet what role it play with other cameras. I hope they come out with a production version soon.


I'll eagerly await the release..... this truly does sound like the 'holy grail' of filters if it can indeed be used with regular NDs!

Piotr,
I don't know - I assume both. All I can tell you is what I have, technically the problem has been solved and they know there is a market out there.

Tiffen,

You should definitely release this product not only as a screw on but also as a 4x5.65 so I can purchase both! And please don't overprice it just because we really, really need it! Thanks!

Of course I believe it is Sony's responsibility to address this issue in the first place. It is a bad issue as bad as issues can get if you ask me. Accurate black reproduction is not a luxury to settle without but a fundamental necessity in any camera labeled "professional".

Some more tests with the prototype far red filter from Tiffen;

ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams | Cinematography (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/the_last_far_red_filter_youll_ever_need/)

Hi, some thoughts after reading the article...

It could be that the dyes in the DSC chart are more far red-neutral than those in the MacBeth chart.

I would rely on the DSC dyes over the Macbeth dyes any day of the week. Those Macbeth charts are prone to flare errors, reduced dynamic range and they're not tested for time limits on the chemical stability of the dyes.


This implies that Sony has built some sort of far red filtration into the ND, although why they weren’t able to take care of all of it is a bit of a mystery. It could be that they are emphasizing the camera’s ability to reproduce a wide variety of reds at the expense of ensuring that every black material seen by the camera remains black.

If they did do this why don't we see any far red reduction when the NDs are engaged. Red reproduction at the expense of blacks IMO is highly unlikely. We know before you get to any colors the blacks have to be locked in place. Although perhaps not in the case of far red, as a matter of practice bad blacks will affect every color out of the gate so you would think this was noticed when the blacks were being calibrated. Not having noticed this when testing the camera is very befuddling to me. It is camera engineering 101.

Also I just wanted to mention that the kill of saturation in the colors is too much and I think simply not acceptable. Not to knock Tiffen at all, at least they have stepped up to address this. But to say we should have a fully working camera here, (Sony), and shouldn't let the pain of unsolved far red contamination now make us accept a partial solution or a solution that in turn creates another problem. Now we have to gain the colors in camera or post which may create noise. Just my 2 1/2 cents.

If Tiffen succeeds at producing this filter without having us give up saturation or something else I suggest that Sony pick up the tab for Tiffen and send a filter to every EX1 owner free of charge.

Max,
I don't understand what you mean by "the kill in the saturation of colors". My observation was that the new filter left the colors just like before after a minor re white balance.