I have a new Canon Vixia HF11 and the results look fantastic -- when I plug my camera directly into my 50" plasma HD TV set. However, the results I get after burning to disc are not nearly as good, and I am asking for advice on distribution.

I have been shooting at the FXP setting (17 mbps); 60i. I have a MacPro (10.5.6, 2x 2.8 GHz Quad-core Intel, 6 GB memory), and made a short (3 min) movie in iMovie '08. Exporting a "large" size file (960x540, the biggest option) and burning to a DVD gives an ok result when played in my Sony Blu-Ray player.

I also have Toast 10 Pro, with the Blu-Ray plug-in. I exported the movie to QuickTime with manual settings (Apple Intermediate Codec, compressor at 1080i, dimensions 1920x1080 16:9) and burned a DVD (Blu-Ray format). When I play it in my Sony Blu-Ray player, it looks better, but still not up to the quality of the original camera files.

It would be great to burn HD videos on economical DVDs, as advertised in the Toast literature, even if I have to stay under 20 min or so. But so far I am unable to re-create on a disc the eye-popping clarity the camera generates. I do not have a Blu-Ray burner on my computer yet. Thanks in advance for any advice! Jeff

Forget BluRay and other discs - go out and get the Western Digital Media Player. You just plug in any USB drive with your video files (virtually all formats) and it'll play them via an HDMI cable to your tv.

Hi Robin and thanks for your suggestion. I checked out the WD Media Player at B&H (they even have a nice video describing it) and it is good as you described -- and a bargain at $108. It seems similar to (maybe better than) an AppleTV, which I already have.

What I really want is something for distribution/sharing with other people -- something low cost that I can give them and they can keep for their memories. DVDs are great (low cost, everyone has a player already) but only SD. It seems like more people are getting Blu-Ray players now that the prices have dropped below $250. I like mine; I think even the "normal" DVDs look better when played on the Blu-Ray player. Thanks, Jeff

I think your problem is iMovie. It's not giving you the full size on the export.

Hi Bill, and thanks for your idea. For my 3 min movie, the QuickTime file that iMovie made is 2.4 GB, it lists the dimensions as 1920 x 1080, and the Codecs are Apple Intermediate Codec, Integer (Little Endian).

I also have Final Cut Express (4.0.1) and could try it. Any special settings? File > Export > QuickTime movie > ??? Do they use a different codec than iMovie?

What I really want is something for distribution/sharing with other people -- something low cost that I can give them and they can keep for their memories. DVDs are great (low cost, everyone has a player already) but only SD. It seems like more people are getting Blu-Ray players now that the prices have dropped below $250. I like mine; I think even the "normal" DVDs look better when played on the Blu-Ray player. Thanks, Jeff

Yes -- they do look better on many BD players. If you want to make DVDs from HD, you've got to follow the correct procedure. But, I'm not sure if it makes sense to make DVDs with folks buying BD players.

PS: If you export correctly iM use all pixels. Only DV suffers from discarding 1 field. But, this too can be overcome.

Hi Steve, thanks for your interest. I just ordered your e-book, which will hopefully answer a lot of my questions.

My main issue right now with Blu-Ray is the high cost of blank discs -- about $10 each -- vs blank DVDs at about 25c each. If my movie is under ~20 min (the Toast guideline), then I should be able to save a bundle by burning HD to DVD. Thanks, Jeff

With the right software and computer, CANON HF11 video can be recorded on standard DVDs which is identical to the original HF11 recordings.

A single layer 25 cent disk holds around 35 minutes, a dual layer disk holds about 70 minutes. I have around 200 such disks here and share them with family all the time. Grandchildren movies which play on both BluRay players as well as PLAYSTATION 3's.

There are tons of messages on this specific forum discussing such disks and software in detail.

Larry

I under stand your pain, jeff.

I have had this same camera , 2 mths still can not get a good std dvd, from.

I hope some can tell us how to Make a STD DVD from the camera. Not a blu Ray, Not storing it but, all we want is a STD DVD.

If i new i was going to have this much hassle to burn it i would of keep my tape camera.

And the worst part is the lack of support for mac user from canon.

I have VoltaicHD for Mac, But it takes almost 6 hrs to convert i hr of video. Ps i have a mac po 16gig ram, quad code, and so,,. So its not the speed of my system.

Ok I have my rant, hope some one has the answer, it would make a good sticky.

Larry, thanks for your message, although a couple of specific tips (or links to other posts) about how you've achieved success would be even better!

Sorry if my prior reply was a bit cryptic Jeff but I was using my iPhone web browser to type it and therefore was not willing to elaborate as much as when I have a regular keyboard to use like I do now. Those who have seen my comments and replies here generally found that I am, if anything, too verbose!!

The HF11 combined with the Mac present a difficult combination unfortunately, since the HF11 produces the highest bitrate AVCHD available and the Mac has the least amount of AVCHD support from the perspective of AVCHD disk authoring. Since you have already tried the new Toast Titanium Pro 10 and are seeing the degredation arising from the transcoding which it does to a lesser bit rate, I can only suggest the following 2 alternatives:

1. For about $165, purchase the Canon accessory called the DW-100 which will directly burn AVCHD disks on standard blanks. These will look great, and will play on other people's BluRay and PS3 players.

2. Under Bootcamp, install a non linear editing and authoring program which supports smart rendering and AVCHD burning. This will yield a very crisp and very attractive AVCHD disk with your edits in a short time period without the many hours of re-rendering time of the Mac apps and without the degredation if you only trim, cut, and splice the video clips together.

In terms of specific threads from this forum to look at, I might suggest these as a starting point:

Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!! - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=130759)

AVCHD and Menus on DVD - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=141142)

Some AVCHD findings on the Mac - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=106434)

PC or Mac for editing AVCHD? - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=115284)

A lot has been written here already, and AVCHD has been on the market since 2006 so many people have already dealt with issues you are now raising.

The thought also occurs to me that the new iLife '09 possibly may have some new options in iMovie or iDVD which could allow for a Mac workflow from the HF11 through iMovie '09 to Toast Titanium 10 Pro. Not really sure. I have the software here but not yet installed it. It appears that iDVD, for example, has not changed since version '08 but possibly iMovie '09 has something significant worth checking.

Hope this provides a starting point.

Larry

Thanks Larry -- I also hate trying to type on my iPhone and much prefer a regular keyboard. I checked out the Canon DW-100 burner; $170 at B&H: Canon | DW-100 DVD Burner | 2683B002 | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539272-REG/Canon_2683B002_DW_100_DVD_Burner_.html#reviews)

The reviews are mixed. And, if I am reading the literature correctly, the burner will only backup the un-edited camera files. What I want is the ability to do some simple editing in iMovie or Final Cut Express, and then distribute the edited version (don't want to punish my friends with all my shooting mistakes!) via disc.

I will read the links you posted and keep working on my problem. It would be bad news if my Mac just wasn't the right machine; we Apple users usually think we have the best equipment for editing!

I exported the movie to QuickTime with manual settings (Apple Intermediate Codec, compressor at 1080i, dimensions 1920x1080 16:9) and burned a DVD (Blu-Ray format).

Are you sure that the clips are in iMovie at 1920 x 1080? I know that iMovie 9 has two sizes it imports for 16x9 video - Large 960 x 540, and Full 1920x1080 (which it likes to discourage you from using.) I don't know what iMovie 8 does...


hmm....according to a lot of sources iMovie 08 uses single-field processing. This is reportedly from a MacWorld review:

For interlaced video such as DV and 1080i HDV, iMovie now uses single-field processing. This means every other horizontal line of the video is thrown out, which reduces the sharpness of the footage. High definition (HD) footage is processed internally at 960-by-540 pixels at most, and that’s not as high resolution or sharp as it could be (and was in prior versions), but with the output from many HD consumer cameras, the visible difference between Full (1,920-by-1,080) and Large (960-by-540) will likely be slight to negligible for most users. In short, if you want maximum quality output from an HD device, don’t use iMovie ’08.

I haven't been able to determine if iMovie 09 does the same thing.

You might want to switch to Final Cut Express.

....one note: I think the MacWorld review is slightly wrong. If iMoive is just using single-field processing, then it would be using an image that's 1920x540 not 960x540.

Hi Michael and thanks for your ideas. I did import into iMovie '08 at "full" size. I think I will have to try Final Cut Express, as you and other suggest. I have been putting it off, as I have a lot more experience using iMovie (although I liked iM '06 a lot better and am still struggling to cope with '08). Maybe this is the nudge I need to take the plunge fully into new waters.

I just finished Steve Mullen's e-book on iMovie, which is very good, and he suggests also moving away from iMovie if you want to export full HD. This is from page 75 of his "Editing DV and HDV with iMovie 08":

If you shoot FullHD AVCHD or MPEG-2 and plan to export as 1920x1080, you
may want to use iMovie 08 only for import, clip selection, and clip trimming.
Then, without adding any audio, clip effects (color correction, crop/fill, Ken
Burns animations) or any transitions other than Dissolve, export your Project
to FCE or FCP.

Jeff, everybody...

It is never going to look like the original footage if you are using IMOVIE or even FCE! Even though it reports your captured video as 1920x1080, IMOVIE will only capture it as 1440x1080. You're taking a hit in resolution right from the get go!

import from camera through imovie vs final cut express in the Vimeo Technical Help Forum (http://www.vimeo.com/forums/topic:7832)

Bob C

Bob,

Thanks for your note, although it left me still confused about the distinction (on ability to handle the full 1920x1081) between iMovie and Final Cut Express.

Reading the Vimeo Tech Help thread you referenced, Eugenia says that iMovie only supports 1440x1080, while the new FCE 4.0.1 (which I have) supports the full 1920x1080. Your note seemed to indicate that FCE was no better than iMovie.

I am going to do a test of FCE 4.0.1 today -- take the same camera footage, burn to DVD and a Blu-Ray (using Toast 10) and see if it looks any better. Unfortunately I am not very experienced with FCE so it is taking a while. It seems to me that most of the simple editing that I do often is easier with iMovie, but hopefully that will change with practice. Jeff

Hi,
I think the newest FCE might have a better codec that is 1920x1080. I guess I was thinking the older codec.

Good luck with your tests, hopefully FCE does the trick for you. What codec does FCE 4.0.1 use? Wasn't it using the same as imovie before (apple intermediate?)

Bob C

OK, I think I'm making progress, but not all the way to where I want to be, so more advice is definitely appreciated!

I just made and tested a DVD (Blu-Ray format) and it looks pretty good, although not as good as the quality right out of the camera into the TV set. Here is the workflow I used:
Footage shot on Canon HF11, FXP mode (17 MBps)
Import into Final Cut Express 4.0.1
Rough edits (I'm just learning FCE)
Export via Quick Time Conversion
Video: Compressor: PNG, Depth: millions of colors+, checked interlaced
export size: HD 1920x1080 16:9

This took 2 hours to encode my 3 min movie, and created a 16GB .mov file. So, not very efficient, but I am trying for the best resolution/quality at this point.

Dropped it into Toast 10.0 (w Blu-Ray plug in) to burn a BluRay on a DVD. Left "encoding" on automatic; video quality on "best". It created a 298MB file on my DVD which looks very good when viewed on my Sony Blu-Ray player and 50" plasma HD TV. But not as good as hooking the camera directly to the TV (using component cables; my TV doesn't have HDMI).

I am still confused about encoding. Did I encode the movie twice? Will that hurt my quality?

Some other posts (I think on the Apple website) suggest export as a QuickTime movie -- do not use the QT conversion. And should I have used the "custom" encoding settings in Toast? There were a lot of options there -- which ones should I use? Thanks, Jeff

When you imported it into FCE it was converted from AVCHD to Apple's Intermediate Compressor. Note that you don't have much choice about that.

When you exported it, you changed it to another compressor (PNG? Really?) And then when it went into Toast it converted it again...

i) If you go into Easy Setup in FCE, what setting do you have for the project? What you probably want to have is: AVCHD - Apple Intermediate Compressor 1920 x 1080i60

ii) I haven't used Toast to burn a Bluray disc, so I don't know what it likes, but the first thing I would try from FCE is Export: QuickTime Movie. That will basically export it in the same format that the video was captured in (i.e. Apple's Intermediate Compressor) so that's one less conversion.

Run a test clip through Toast and see what happens. Now if Toast doesn't like that file at all, then you probably want to hunt around the Toast site and see what format it does like.


Another thing you should do: Import a clip into FCE from the camera, then find the capture file (should be a .mov file in Final Cut Express Documents, Capture folder.) Take that file and run it through Toast. That's taking the export from FCE out of the equation. If that clip doesn't look good then you know it's either the import function or the Toast settings that are messing with the clip (but make sure you imported the clips with the right project settings to begin with, because otherwise you'll have lost resolution.)

Hope that helps.


P.S. I suggest doing some tests with short clips until you've got things figured out. It'll save you a lot of time!

Hi Michael and thanks for your thoughts. As you can tell I am a remedial student!

I used the PNG compressor setting at the suggestion of another poster (Josh Mellicker, 1/29/09) in the Apple FCE discussion area How do I export a high quality movie? at DVcreators.net (http://www.dvcreators.net/how-do-i-export-a-high-quality-movie/)

It sounds like 3 conversions is too much... To respond to your questions:

i) In FCE's Easy Setup, yes I had already AVCHD - AIC 1920x1080i60
II) I will try exporting from FCE as a QuickTime movie and see how it looks.

Success at last! With the help of my on-line friends here and some experimentation, I've made a Blu-Ray format disc on a blank (cheap) DVD that looks as good on my living room TV as plugging the camera in directly to the home theatre receiver. Here is the workflow that worked:

Shoot on Canon HF11 in FXP mode (17 MBps)
Import into Final Cut Express (4.0.1) and edit
Export to QuickTime movie (not self-contained) - very fast encode
Drop .mov file into Toast 10.0 w/ Blu-ray plug-in
Toast: Options > Encoding > Custom
MPEG-4, 15 MBps avg bit rate, 17 MBps max bit rate

My 3 min movie encoded and burned quickly. When I toggled back and forth on the TV between the disc (playing in my Sony Blu-Ray player) and the camera (directly connected) they were almost the same. My wife actually preferred the look of the disc.

There may be other/better ways, but this worked for me. Now I need to try a longer movie, so see if 20 min is really the limit for Blu-Ray on a DVD in Toast. Thanks for all who helped! Jeff

Jeff,

Have you tried to do this with 24 Mbit/sec (MXP mode) video yet?

Larry