I posted this on a photography forum, might be useful to post it here as well. I use the term "professionals" loosely as a reference for both photographer and videographer.

This might be a sensitive topic to address, as a videographer I meet many photographers at weddings some a pleasure to work with other are a nightmare. Coming from a photography background I am aware of a few videographers that don't have much respect for the photographer however as a videographer now this applies both ways. There has to be mutual respect between both professions, personally I give the photographer best position to capture images, working from vantage point around the photographer as I can easily adjust my angles into fluid motion. When delivering a "cinematic" product my quality has to be to international film standards and the home made look is not acceptable to me.

The problem with some professionals is that when they assume they are the only paid professional, they act as they please and everything become problematic. There is a perception with some professionals that they are doing the bride a groom a favor and their attitudes sometimes ruin the atmosphere at weddings. I really am fed-up with this unprofessional behavior. If another professional steps in front of one of my important takes again, acts like they own the wedding, makes general remarks about the couple, spoils the day, becomes over baring, I will take them to the side and curse them till I need acid to wash out my mouth, I've had it to here with this kind of behavior!

My Guidelines for working together:

* It's not your wedding, get off your high horse! The couple has been planning this day, she has dreamed about it since she was a little girl, it's all about them not your big ego!
* "Never ever" step infront of any lens unless you have to and apologize for doing so! Your butt is huge on camera.
* "Ask" the other professional if they would like to do something, you are not the only one working!
* Keep your remarks to yourself.
* You don't need two photographers to take 50 photos from the same angle in a confined space! Learn how to take photos for crying out load.
* Quality over Quantity, join the army if you want to be a machine gunner.
* Be polite.
* Respect goes a long way.
* When you set-up many studio lights on light sensative slaves that trigger for any flash during the ceremony, what the hell are you thinking? It's not a rock concert!
* For the videos guys, you don't need to light up the place like a football field! Atmosphere can be maintained with clever lighting.
* They don't want to remember you, you are not on the guest list, be discreet, flow with the wedding, hunt for that good one.
* Know what your limits are, if the bride gets edgy, back-off a little within reason, I hear all the complaints when I deliver the DVD about pushy photographers.

Wow Nicholas.....I'm assuming that you've had quite a few run ins with not so pleasant photographers. I've been shooting stills for quite sometime and have yet to have a negative reaction from anyone of the many vendors I've had the pleasure to work with.I have however had quite a few video guys step right into my shots...:).We do as you had mentioned in your post and work around any obstacle.We'll usually get a million apologies and we say"no problem we got the shot" even if we didn't. After all we ARE pros...right? I really go out of my way when it comes to other working professionals at the event.It benefits everyone working that day. There are always a few snobs that you run across,but you take it with a grain of salt and move on.I have enough to worry about during that day without some crazed video guys trying to take over. Now that I'm a video guy I have the pleasure of working with an amazing photographer everyday.....ME:) . And be careful who you curse out in a corner....you just might get an equal response.

Ryan

I've been very fortunate with the photographers I've worked with, they've all been very pleasant and easy to work with. With the exception of one. We typically will shadow the photographer to get some of the shots we want, staying out of the way.
This one photographer gave us crap stating that her poses were copyrighted and that we couldn't shoot any of the poses she put the bride and groom in. So I politely told thats, if you don't want us shooting this part than I will pull the b&g away right now for about 30min. and get the shots I need and you can have them back when I'm done. She didn't like that idea and let us shoot the footage we need.

Hey Adam,

Well if she was gong on about copyrighted poses (bullcrap by the way) that would probably suggest that she uses the same exact poses over and over.Hence her irrational that someone might steel her two money shots.I have videographers shooting along side us all of the time and I don't mind at all.

Ryan

This weekend, I had a photographer knowingly step right in front of my camera for the isle shot, continued to have his head and whole body in front of my lens taking stills with flash, and moved out of the way when the bride reached the groom.

I could have screamed and torn the place down and disrupt the service....

Did not even get an apology and I had been extremely nice to him prior to that with respect, so why did he do this?

He was looking out for no1, did not care that I would not get my shot. I could not move as their was nowhere to move to. Extremely unproffesional from his part at such a crucial moment.

Did I get an apology, no, he continued the rest of the day continuing to walk over my shots.

I'm furious, but I have the evidence.

Now some advice. The photographer was a friend of the b+g. Do I include this footage in the final edit. Remove completely and tell b+g they don't have an isle shot?

Extremely annoyed!

john,
i just can't bring myself to post some framegrabs of a similar situation online, so i'll email them to you....2 secs

Include it, of course. You had no control over the behaviour of the photographer. What they see is, unfortunately, what they get.

Hey Adam,

Well if she was gong on about copyrighted poses (bullcrap by the way) that would probably suggest that she uses the same exact poses over and over.Hence her irrational that someone might steel her two money shots.I have videographers shooting along side us all of the time and I don't mind at all.

Ryan

Hmmmm 'copyright poses'... some years back I worked with a young gun hotshot photog. He started running off about that subject and thathe would sue me for infringment. Frankly I really didn't pay much attention pretty much just kept doing my thing. Needless to say the night wasn't a pleasant one as he kept running off at the mouth. When I go home that night I pulled out my old case that had proofs from wedding I did back in the 70s as a still photographer. Poses looked mighty familar. Oh yeah, pretty much the same. So I asked my lawyer to draft a letter telling the hotshot I would sue him for copyright infringment ifhe didn't stop using those poses as the proof I sent him were marked very clearly with a big red stamp stating that the shot had a copyright on it.
Well I never did hear from him or his lawyer and BTW you can copyright a picture but not the poseat least according to my lawyer, then and now.
I can honestly say that in the last 25 years I've only had 2 photogs that were difficult to workwith all the rest, well, we worked together as professionals. A little respect, an understanding that we are both there to do a job for the B&G and working together.
Don

Ryan generally I have a very pleasant relationship with most photographers and sometimes even make good friends however the odd ball does fall into the picture every now and then. Last weekend pushed me to my limits, I was very polite and helpful however the photographer had an attitude and knowingly stepped into my shot, I was furious after that the gloves was off, I kept my cool though.

Same scenario as with John, was a family friend of the B+G. I know that many videographers are asses and hated by many photographers, it's for this reason I go out of my way to help the photographer understand I won't ruin any of their shots.

John I would tell them what happened to isle shot, I had this happen to me once and I got the photos from the photographer and put slow pan/zooms on them instead of video, came out nicely.

Its funny this same photog will bring 3 or 4 other people and they all stand next to each other and get the same shot.

The same shot? Yes...well, technically no. Some people, such as myself, are very meticulous about shots, and even though they are next to each other, the shot will be slightly different. Is this neccessary? Nah, not if you know how to compose a shot. After all its not a press event.

About working with other 'professionals.' One thing that must be considered is that "experience does not make you a professional" (quote from my book). Also not all professionals act the part. One example is the guy walking into the isle shot. He may be a professional, but that was NOT a professional thing to do. Besides, with the field of view on high-end DSLRs the photographer should easily be able to stand right next to the videographer, or maybe right below, and get the same "shot." Besides, they can take 4-10 pictures per burst. I'm sure if they are experienced they won't have to have the camera directly in front of their face to get a good picture...though that is debatable, especially without a tripod. Hello Photoshop!

As far as personal experience, the most any photographer has irritated me was by yelling "get that cameraman out the shot." Not polite at all but we did speak before the reception and he turned out to be a nice guy.

Whenever possible try to verbally interact with the others before the event starts, this usually negates any unneccessary tension.

JS

had one of these interesting situations a couple weekends ago while filming a friend's band. Just so happened my ex-girlfriend, who thinks she is a "photog" ahah, was in attendence. Anyways, guess she saw me there with all my gear doing my thing and never to be outdone, comandeered a DSLR from her friend and decided to make it an extra-awkward night for me.

So I'm center stage, shooting handheld, getting some close-ups and she proceeds to get all up in my sh!t, so frustrating. I'd have a shot lined up and all of the sudden I'd see her head/camera lense hove into my viewfinder..this happened multiple times before I spoke up to her about it. I asked her to please try to stay out of my shot if possible...no more than two minutes later, she walked directly in front of me and snapped a picture and sat there for what felt like a minute..I almost jump kicked her..haha..I don't know if she's really that clueless, or if it was blatant, but it really pissed me off and was extremely unprofessional behavior. especially since I was hired to film by the band and she had no involvement in it, just someone in the crowd with a borrowed camera..freakin Busch League. hell, even the drunk girls dancing in the audience had enough sense to duck down if they were walking in front of the camera.

The way I see it, when you are shooting event video with a single video camera, ur documenting an ongoing unrepeatable event in a live situation taking x amt. of photos per second, interrupting this can essentially ruin a segment and it looks bad if you are whipping a video camera around trying to avoid someone blocking your shot. With a still camera, you can get from point a to point b very easily and then get the shots you need, you don't have to constantly monitor your viewfinder and hold the camera steady between shots right? It's so much less of a hassle to get around with a still camera, so I feel photogs should be more mindful of where a videographer is at any given time and what they are doing. Obviously, it is a mutual thing and everyone should respect each others space and shots, and I feel that most know this.

unfortunately, in my case last weekend, there was already some bad blood there, so I can't help but think that the shot disruptions were blatant, and that's just rediculous, hopefully I'll never be in a situation like that again

Hey Nicholas.....yup there is always the oddball to deal with.I'm hoping this season is just as much fun as last.I have my first wedding of 50 Feb. 14th but I won't be the videographer there.They had already hired someone before they found me.So I'll be sure to try and trip him every now and again.....I'm kidding of course:) The videographer is usually the first pro I see the day of an event,So we always make sure to go over each others plans and find a happy median.We are also constantly looking for each other to make sure we are not in each others shots during the entire day.Sometimes @#%# happens and we both understand.But like you said...you'll always run into the occasional <insert expletive>"pro" during your career.

Ryan:)

When I first got onto the wedding video forums here, I read a LOT. After hearing about photogs, I went out into the industry starting my business with my 'dukes up' ready for the inconsiderate photographers.

My experience has been just the opposite. The photographers here in Northern California have been great to work with and I have also gotten referrals from photographers. OK, yeah I did have one photographer that was a jerk, but who knows, maybe he was having a bad day.

Do you think the reason many photographers have little respect for videographers is because most wedding videographers are crappy and do very poor work?

I'm not saying any videographers here do produce lousy work. I haven't seen your work. But I've seen a great deal of the work (via their sample DVD's) produced by wedding videographers in my area. Their work is pretty bad, not much better than Uncle Bob with his little camcorder and Windows Movie Maker.

It seems like everyone who owns a video camera thinks they can start a business and shoot weddings. I've scouted many bridal shows and more times than not, the "videographers" have been mom and pop or some DJ that has a video camera too. They all play cut throat and offer cheap packages. It cracks me up when I see their demos playing or their silly little DVD samples with the sticky label and paper sleeve.

I've done a few weddings before. And I've had photographers get in front of me. I'll admit, it takes a very talented person to do a professional job on a wedding video. I certainly respect the work done by those who are truly professional wedding videographers.

But I think the majority of people who claim to be wedding videographers are hacks. The professional photographers know that and, unless they know you are a quality-oriented producer, they consider you to be a hack as well and will not give you the respect you may deserve.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I'm not saying all wedding videographers are hacks but many are. And it's those hacks that have ruined it for the quality producers and made it hard to charge and get the prices photographers get.

Jeff

Jeff,

I had to chime in... I agree. I've seen website samples from "pro" videogs in my area that I would be embarassed to give away, let alone charge $1500.00 for. There is a stigma - that many "pro" video guys are hacks with a camcorder, and don't deserve respect from seasoned photogs.

It's up to all of us to change that. I've been shooting for 20 years, and there's few things more difficult to shoot really well, where expectations are higher, than a wedding. This is my first season of 'embracing' weddings and I realize just how difficult it is to control all of the elements to make a wedding film look epic. (I don't even use the term 'wedding video', because of the stigma).

This "copyrighted poses" thing has popped up in the forum before. While I've never experienced a photog or videog stating this to me before. I would approach it in this order:

1. Say to the photographer, "You're hired to document the couples day as am I. Formal portraits are part of the day and I plan to record them."

2. Say to the photographer, "No problem, as a fellow artist I respect your copyright. However, I m going to need to get formal shots too so I will ask the bride at what point on her wedding day would she like to redo all of her formal poses for me because you have a problem with me shooting your poses."

3. Shoot the poses and let the photographer make a scene. Then when the photographer gives you the copyrighted poses line. Tell them, I'll shoot whatever I choose and you can feel free to sue me later for copyright infringement.

4. Use a monopod (preferably a heavy steel one) on the craniocaudal end of the photographer. Repeat as necessary.



Wedding videographers and photographers are vendors at one of a couple's most special days. The goal should be the same for both - giving the best possible product and service. Egos need to be set aside and everyone needs to work together. Peace and Love, Peace and Love!

Do you think the reason many photographers have little respect for videographers is because most wedding videographers are crappy and do very poor work?

I do agree with you Jeff, however there is no shortage of Uncle Bob photographers either. A new breed of wedding film is being produced that is nothing short of brilliant. As for all the hacks out there, people are ignorantly paying them, I really don't care how stupid you are, there is no excuse for crappy work, not with Google around.

I just think that we are all working towards the same goal here.....To make the CLIENT happy.I treat everyone (wether an uncle Bob with a video camera or still-motion shows up) with the same respect that I'd like to be treated with.My 2 cents

Ryan

I learned my lesson too when photog was trying to take over the session with the b&g in the park. Hopefully the bride told them to stop it because they want to shoot video with me as well. And they walked away from photog and I took them on a side to do my stuff as well. Assistant of photog was trying few more time to call them back to photoshoot but bride said that they don't want to. It made my day.

From now on, I make sure I tell the b&g that I am equaly important as the photog at the day of their wedding, as long as they want me to provide the services I offered. I also ask them to reserve more time for photosession because of two vendors.

There is still one more issue - photog's assistants running with lamps, flesh, lens, etc... Can't make them to walk behind the camera - someone has a solution for that?

If the photog is a big issue, I just inform the bride or groom about the situation, so she won't be surprised that her video is compromised because of the photog.

When the ceremony procession starts, everyone in the audience whips out their little cameras and stick their arms into the aisle, holding their camera at arm's length from their face and into my frame. I hate that.

I also hate it when the emcee announces the cake cutting, and invites everyone with cameras to come up to the cake and get a shot.

These situations are worse than professional photographers getting in the way for me.

I hear you and the guest can basically roam around shooting pics while you are relegated to 1 or 2 spots in the church because the priest don't want you to be roaming around.

My experience on this has been mixed, my most recent wedding (2 wks ago) the photg was incredible and is a weekend warrior (I am going to bring him in on some of my other projects because of his talent and work ethic.) Last month, i had a wedding that had 4 pro phtogs and knew i was just gonna have to work around them. (I have several shots with elbows in the safe area.) But my worst was a couple of yrs ago. The photog showed up in tennis shoes, khakis, and a bright striped polo. He made inappropriate advances toward the bride and bridesmaids during the prewedding shoot and during the "now kiss the bride" he lept in front of my camera blocking me. Luckily it was a long kiss and I nearly snapped my quickrelease on my tripod going handheld to get the shot. he was all over my shoot but to jump in front of my camera during the kiss was over the line...

I seriously was tempted to use Josh's no. 4 option...

...4. Use a monopod (preferably a heavy steel one) on the craniocaudal end of the photographer. Repeat as necessary.

Wow, do these posts bring back some memories! Fortunately for me, there are very FEW memories like this. But, Josh's suggestion, "Use a monopod ... on the craniocaudal end of the photographer..." reminded me of a photog who almost got a smack. She'd been in front of my camera off and on, all day long, and it was the last dance of the night. I keep an old radio antenna in the kit for 'tapping' someone on the shoulder if I need their attention. Well, in light of her antics that day, I got the antenna out of the bag, and had it extended in my hand during the last dance shot...she never came close to me! I think she finally got the message and didn't want the smack across the legs that I had planned for her!

Now, after sharing a negative, let me say that 95% of the photographers around here are GREAT to work with. I treat them with respect, and get respect back from them.

Cheers!

Mark

I get smacked around by the photographer all day even at home. Yeah she's the wife.

On a more serious note I get along very well with photogs, I always strike up a conversation, ask how long they've been doing it with this script:


1. 15 years- " Wow, you must be really good. I always think old school wedding photogs are the best, unlike now you own a DSLR and you're a photog". They usually warm up to you when they hear that.

2. Newbie- " That's cool. Fresh mind, fresh eye". They are easier to deal with as they ask you for referrals.

My 2 cents.

It's been my experience that good photographers are easier to work with, whereas the less capable ones tend to be more problematic. I think it comes down to confidence. The inexperienced or just plain ordinary ones can't adapt on the fly to accomodate someone else shooting beside them. They are so focused on watching their settings, lining up the shot, getting the only angle they see, that they have no other space in their brain for looking out for the other guy. The good ones don't have to use nearly as much of their mental resources for these things and therefore can get the shot while looking out for someone else. They see multiple angles and can adjust on the fly to still get the shot and more importantly, they know it and don't spook easily when confronted with a challenge.

Same goes for videographers.

You also have to factor in that a certain % of the general population are just jerks and maybe you've encountered one of those people.

All in all most photographers are just fine, it's just the occasional bad one who sticks out in your mind. One of my most memorable ones spoke to us before the wedding to figure out how to could not be in each other's way. We in no uncertain terms told her where my wife would be set up for the ceremony, we even changed our location a little to accommodate her wishes, knowing that a mere 10 degree angle difference wouldn't affect the shot and would make everyone happy and what happens during the vows? She steps right in front of my wife's camera and remains parked there even after glancing back to see the camera, so my wife scoots over a little and wouldn't you know it, she does it again! Now you have to know my wife to fully understand what happened next, she's quiet, one of the most mild mannered people I've ever met. She taps the woman on the shoulder to let her know she's in the way and the photographer slides over a little only to get right back in the way a little later. After the ceremony my wife (all of 5'2" 100lbs) forcefully pulls the woman aside and lays into her, berating her for being either unprofessional, stupid, or both. I actually had to pull her away before it got worse. The poor photogs husband was assisting her that day and he didn't know what the heck to do, he just kinda exchanged a look with me as if it wasn't the first time this has happened.

I had a wedding a few years ago where the photographer and the assistant kept on walking and standing in my shot... i kept on asking them politely "please mind my shots and try to go around or duck in front of the camera" but the plead didn't give any results. They were arrogant and rude. The photographer told me right before she left that wedding videos are such a waste of money. I kept my calm and i just walked away.

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers... (if people asked me who the photog. comp... was i felt i had to tell them). A few weeks later i got a call from the company apologizing for the photog's behavior and told me that she was let go for her lack of professionalism with several of their clients. I've been one of their referrals ever since.

I would agree with a lot of the comments already posted on this thread, the majority of the pros. photographers are easy and fun to work with. The issue that was mentioned earlier is that i believe that those unprofessional photographers do not take videography seriously. I had people tell me they didn't require video because their photographer included video in their packages for next to nothing. Needles to say the production quality was next to nothing but it goes to show you that for those hack photog. video is quite meaningless so why should they care when its another videographer on a shoot.

I've even seen some photographers stating in their contract that they would not shoot if there was videographer hired, i mean what the hell is that, who is the client here?

But all in all, 99.9% of the photographers out there are great to work with. If anything i sometimes strive on some of the creativity these artists come up with and incorporate them in my production which brings up the quality of my work one notch. Hell it's like having your own on location DP... for FREE!!!

...I've even seen some photographers stating in their contract that they would not shoot if there was videographer hired, i mean what the hell is that, who is the client here?...

Wow! That is beyond the pale. We have a local photo studio here that has a handout (for bridal shows) titled "why videography is a waste of money" and i thought that was bad but to put it in the contract is way over the line...

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers...

What a great idea... I have often thought about doing this, but never followed through. This might be what they need to realize the impact they are having on us. I wouldn't do this to anyone, but we have a few (one comes to mind in particular) that we work with a lot because they are in the same "budget range" as us, and I create something like you did for them.

We have a local photo studio here that has a handout (for bridal shows) titled "why videography is a waste of money"

Now that's funny. Wonder why they have an ax to grind?

hmmmm, maybe I'll make a flyer "Why still photography is a waste of money". ;-)

In my time and having started as a still guy a hundred years ago, after many conversations with a lot of photogs, it seems that a lot of the anomosity comes from the "old timers" who know that many years ago we really had to light the place up with some awesome lights (think sun guns at least) which of course we no longer have to do. But in their minds...

Then you get the folks that have been around say 10-15 years and some of them feel threatened by those of us in the video end of the business. They feel that our being there is somehow going to take their business away. Maybe they should learn to be better shooters and people. Spend more time on their craft and less time bashing the videographers.

It seems to me the newer folks in photography are quite open to video. Many of them at least the ones I have worked with realize just how helpful WE can be at a wedding. There have been times in the past a DJ is ready to do something and the photog is nowhere around and I'll try to keep the DJ from going ahead and try to fine the photog. Things like that. Heck I have a friend that hates the posed shots after the ceremony and asks me to set them up for him. I always laugh about that and tell him he should split his fee with me. We work very well together and have a good time with it.

Fortunately 99% of the photogs I've worked with over the years have been really good and fun to work with.

Don

Now that's funny. Wonder why they have an ax to grind?

I worked with that studio on one wedding and it was tense indeed. They fear that people will buy videos and not photos, from what i could glean from him, so they decided a preemptive strike is a sound business plan. I had a bride bring me a copy of the flyer at one of our meetings and it said things like, "photography will only show the best moments from your wedding, videography will show every flaw" and "you can decorate your house with your wedding photos but to show your video you have to make your guests sit through hours of video." And on, and on...

Just goes to show you can spin anything to hurt or help others.

When I first partnered up with my preferred photography service provider one of the first questions he asked is how soon will your videography put us out of business? I was floored and then he explained a concern that the higher def cams screen grabs may replace need for his services. I reassured him but in the back of my mind there is some validation to his fear. if scarlet became widespread, perhaps, but as I explained to him (and many of you would agree) the person behind the lens is who they are hiring and his 50+ yrs of experience wouldn't be replaced that easily.

Bottom line, more lenses = more complete capture of the day and the precious moments therein... doesn't matter whether the camera is still or video...

Any studio so stupid as to spread FUD only discredits their own product... think about it, if they are so threatened as to have to badmouth someone else (or a whole industry, without regard to individual skilled practitioners) to get work, would YOU be comfortable hiring them?

I'm smart enough to know that as hard as I try I won't nail EVERY shot every time (though multi-cam helps a LOT!)... having an extra cam angle or still to cut to is just good sense, and with HD, being able to pull the occasional still when needed is bonus points...

If all the vendors remember that they are there for the B&G, and NOTHING should get in the way of doing the absolute best possible job for them, none of the "Pix vs. Flix" nonsense would even exist.

Do you think the reason many photographers have little respect for videographers is because most wedding videographers are crappy and do very poor work?

But I think the majority of people who claim to be wedding videographers are hacks. The professional photographers know that and, unless they know you are a quality-oriented producer, they consider you to be a hack as well and will not give you the respect you may deserve.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I'm not saying all wedding videographers are hacks but many are. And it's those hacks that have ruined it for the quality producers and made it hard to charge and get the prices photographers get.

Jeff

Video takes a much greater set skills to produce good work.. Hell hand anyone without ANY photography skills a DSLR(with the proper settings dialed-in) and if he blindly press the shutter a few times and will snap a few decent photos - GUARANTEED. Video on the other hand - not so easy.

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work than there are videographers.

I also think photographers in general are more extroverted than videographers, I think this is also why photographers' rants against videographers are heard more..

...If all the vendors remember that they are there for the B&G, and NOTHING should get in the way of doing the absolute best possible job for them, none of the "Pix vs. Flix" nonsense would even exist.

Hear! Hear! (said with a hearty clap on the back)

But seriously, i think that this is what it all comes down to. Most vendors regardless of trade realize this and are doing good business with good rep because of it. Dave you said it well. As long as everyone wants to keep the customer happy then we all get along great. I want them to have the best pictures they can and the best video they can.

A few months later i sent her company a compilation DVD with all the shots that she and her assistant walked into. I informed them that i was showing this video to all my customers and telling them to be carefully when hiring unprofessional photographers... (if people asked me who the photog. comp... was i felt i had to tell them). A few weeks later i got a call from the company apologizing for the photog's behavior and told me that she was let go for her lack of professionalism with several of their clients. I've been one of their referrals ever since.


Wow, Carl, what a great move. Nobody I know, I hope.

I tend to work with the same photographers over and over, since we sell both photo and video. But sometimes I'll shoot with a stranger. In general, I've found photographers to be very nice and helpful at best, and perhaps standoffish at worst.

I did have one guy who brought the bride and groom to his studio after the ceremony, and didn't want me to come in and shoot. I'm not sure what he thought might happen...would I steal his ideas for decor? I don't know. Anyway, we had a chat and I reassured him. After that, no problem. He was kind of old school style, though, so maybe the video felt threatening to him.

Wow, Carl, what a great move. Nobody I know, I hope.



Probably not Vito, it was a small company in the boonies somewhere in Vaudreuil. I would put up their company name on the forum but since they have generated good business for me since, i don't think it would be a smart move. ;)

This weekend, I had a photographer knowingly step right in front of my camera for the isle shot, continued to have his head and whole body in front of my lens...

Just hearing your story really burns me. A pro wouldn't let this slide. I would discreetly wait for him in the parking area. The only way people learn their mistakes is by being told in a manner they won't forget. But, maybe Im just turning into a mean old man.

Thankfully, I don't do church weddings, my clients are all location (99% local) weddings.

Video takes a much greater set skills to produce good work.. Hell hand anyone without ANY photography skills a DSLR(with the proper settings dialed-in) and if he blindly press the shutter a few times and will snap a few decent photos - GUARANTEED. Video on the other hand - not so easy.

Well Yang I don't think it's fair to suggest that just about anyone can be a good photographer. I take a bit of offense to that statement. I've been a photographer for 10 years now and I've seen many people come and go with lesser skills. Either way weather it be photo or video....It takes an artistic eye.Yes anyone can pick up a dslr and take a picture but the same goes for video. Both require certain skill sets and composition skills. I understand that most of the video guys are a little uneasy about the whole 5d thing. And sure many photographers will assume that they can just pick one up and start getting amazing footage. When the reality sets in that it's not that easy they will all drop like flies. And then in turn hopefully start respecting your art form a bit more......right? So please take it down a notch.

Ryan:)

Re: the "Why Videography is a waste" article, I vividly remember seeing the text from a document of the same name in a thread at photo.net. I do not know rather this is the same document, or an other one with the same name, but I do remember the sentiments were the same.

The response from the other photographers was along the lines of Dave's posting in earlier in this thread: discrediting other vendors only makes you appear bitter, weak, and lacking confidence in your own product.

I would never speak badly of any other photographer, videographer, or wedding professional. Can you imagine what you would think if you took your car to a mechanic and the first thing they said was, "You better bring your car to us because the guy down the road is horrible."

Luckily, I have never had a bad experience with a photographer, young or old. But when I do a DVD compilation of blocked shots may be in order :)

I think that there are any number of reasons that photogs can act unprofessional.

Some people are just unprofessional, no matter what they are doing.

Some photogs (especially in my market) aren't used to working side-by-side with videographers, and are inexperienced in that way.

Some photogs are just clueless in everything in life.

Some photogs feel that their job is more important. This can stem from many things; ego, the fact that brides place more emphasis on photography (generally), the fact that photography has been around longer, the fact the maybe they haven't actually seen good videography.


I've been toying with the idea of creating something to send out to a photographer before the wedding to sort of outline what I will be doing and how the photographer can accommodate me, as well as opening a dialogue for how I can help them. The wedding day is not the time to work out kinks.

Well Yang I don't think it's fair to suggest that just about anyone can be a good photographer. I take a bit of offense to that statement. I've been a photographer for 10 years now and I've seen many people come and go with lesser skills. Either way weather it be photo or video....It takes an artistic eye.Yes anyone can pick up a dslr and take a picture but the same goes for video. Both require certain skill sets and composition skills. I understand that most of the video guys are a little uneasy about the whole 5d thing. And sure many photographers will assume that they can just pick one up and start getting amazing footage. When the reality sets in that it's not that easy they will all drop like flies. And then in turn hopefully start respecting your art form a bit more......right? So please take it down a notch.

Ryan:)

Hey Ryan, don't think you got what I was saying.. My example was to illustrate, that once the settings are dialed in by someone who knows what they're doing, anyone can press the shutter at that point, and after a few shots, one will bound to turn out good. Depending on the style of photo you do, luck and timing are all crucial elements of a good photo, and anyone can get lucky right? Of course, this doesn't include the skills it takes to interact with subjects, posing, etc.. but you get the idea. That once a proper pic has been taken, there's only little work left in post relative to all the video editing & sound mixing that is required for a proper wedding video. It is also why if needed, a photographer can deliever edited photos from a wedding in matter of days(perhaps even less than a day), but it takes magnitudes longer for a video to be finished..

I also do both photo and video. I started out in video and I can speak from my person experience that photo has a much lower learning curve from a technical perspective. This is reflected by the greater number of photographers who are able to put out decent to good quality work as opposed to videographers. It is simply a much more difficult medium to master.

Have you seen this? Cameras for Kids (http://www.cameras-for-kids.com/kids/index.html) Some of the photos are truly excellent and worthy of National Geographic. Have you ever seen a program to let kids go out and make videos that's on par with this?

Yang, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, thanks for sharing the link. There are some real gems in there.

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work ...

That, and Photoshop.

Jeff

I think this the reason why there are many more photographers who are able to produce decent to good quality of work than there are videographers.



Law of statistics would come into place too, a photog can easily shoot 500-1000 shots a wedding, something decent would COME I agree... and Photoshop as Jeff mentioned.

well truth be told...there are a few more hats to be worn to shoot video.I understand it does take a bit longer to edit video,But you can sure set up a video camera "with all the correct settings" and have your average Joe get a couple good shots as well.The door swings both ways Yang.It seems like the video guy is looking down on the photographers from my stand point.I don't think there are many people out there that can produce the quality of work we do as consistently as we do.Also keep in mind that us lowly photographers have to deal with album designs,slide shows,print orders,etc.I'm sure I spend much more time working on any given wedding then most video guys do when you take all those things into account.That is if they only shoot video.Well let's just agree to disagree......ok? I am in awe of some of the talent in this forum and pull much inspiration from you guys....I just don't like when what I do gets trashed.After all I am a talented handsome sensitive man...lol.And now I'll start packing for my steadicam workshop this weekend! Have a great weekend everyone!

Ryan:)

I just thought I'd chime in on this. I agree that there's no reason to bash one medium or the other, but I also think it's ignorant to just assume that they both have the same requirements.

Having been on both sides of the lens, I would say shooting quality video is significantly more difficult. There are dozens of reasons for this; video is more difficult to work with in low light, video can't make use of flash technology, video involves the capture of thousands and thousands of consecutive frames (and they all must be good in order for the clip to work), video involves recording entire events (like that 20 minute toast you end up having to shoot handheld while the photographer is done after a couple of shots), video requires a steady hand for anywhere from 5 seconds to 5 minutes (or oftentimes much longer), video requires motion elements, video editing in general is far more time-consuming than designing an album (especially when most photographers simply use design templates - I know for a fact that a large album can be designed in a day), with video if someone blocks your shot you can't generally just move to a better location, video involves audio (and if nothing else made video more difficult, this would).

Professional photographers have a difficult job, but I guarantee you it feels like a vacation for me to shoot stills at a wedding versus shooting video. I sometimes hear the argument that photographers have to come up with quality poses during the photoshoot, and I agree that this isn't easy. The flip side of this, if you're a videographer, is that you generally don't get to set up any of your own shots. And we all know that the shots that work for photography often don't work as well for video.

There's no need to have hurt feelings on this. Both fields require proper equipment/software and substantial skill to provide an excellent product. In my opinion both mediums are critical to the proper capture of someone's wedding day. But I do get a bit annoyed when photographers (my wife is one) assume that wedding photography is just as difficult as wedding videography. It's not even close.

well truth be told...there are a few more hats to be worn to shoot video.I understand it does take a bit longer to edit video,But you can sure set up a video camera "with all the correct settings" and have your average Joe get a couple good shots as well.The door swings both ways Yang.It seems like the video guy is looking down on the photographers from my stand point.I don't think there are many people out there that can produce the quality of work we do as consistently as we do.Also keep in mind that us lowly photographers have to deal with album designs,slide shows,print orders,etc.I'm sure I spend much more time working on any given wedding then most video guys do when you take all those things into account.That is if they only shoot video.Well let's just agree to disagree......ok? I am in awe of some of the talent in this forum and pull much inspiration from you guys....I just don't like when what I do gets trashed.After all I am a talented handsome sensitive man...lol.And now I'll start packing for my steadicam workshop this weekend! Have a great weekend everyone!

Ryan:)

A photo is snapshot of time. Good photographic eye, composition, and lucky timing all contribute to a successful photo. You give a person a DSLR, put him in a situation where good action occurs in front of him and just tell him to fire away. Most likely, he'll come out with more than a few usable photos. Video on the other hand is a continuous stream of images. Sure you can hand an unskilled shooter a Sony EX1 that's all setup for proper exposure and put him in the same situation where the action is. He'll be able to hold the camera up no doubt, but if he pans too fast or jostles the camera while filming a 3 second fancy camera move, everything will be ruined. Or most likely, he'll just stand there working the zoom rocker like there's no tomorrow because he has no concept of how the pace of the footage, including camera moves(or lack of a camera move) will affect the editing later on. Also I haven't even gotten into the fact that the general public has burnt into their subconsciousness of what a high-end video production looks like - Almost always involving elaborate lighting, and camera moves that can only be achieved by dolly, steadicam, or jib arm - All are elements that require a large crew and cumbersome equipment. Most wedding videographers do not have such luxuries and are forced to compete with this well established notion of "high-end" by using paltry 1/3" camcorders and on-camera lights. The DSLRs in a wedding photographer's bag can most definitely be used to shoot 100% of the high-end photo work we see on billboards, and fashion magazines. Much smaller technical hurdles..

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I shoot wedding photos as well. I offer both services. I speak from personal experience when I say there is way less amount of work is involved (even with album design), and "relatively" much lower technical learning curve involved with wedding photography. Posing subjects and interacting with them for a full day is a challenge that is entirely foreign to folks of the video world. However, if you shoot for a specific style, you can get away without too much posing and interaction. In short, it is much easier for someone to develop photographic skills to produce decent to good photos than it is for someone to develop video shooting and editing skills to produce videos of the same caliber. This then explains why the general public's perception of the industry is that there are more videographers putting out bad stuff than there are photographers.

I also think photographers in general are more extroverted than videographers, I think this is also why photographers' rants against videographers are heard more..

Reason being as a videographer the last thing we want is our voice on the DVD. A photographer doesn't record sound so can talk until the cows come home. but we don't want our voice on the film unless its during an interview, hence it seems we are introverted in comparison.

I have had bad experiences with a few photographers myself. One so bad it got to the stage that when I got him to one side I had to say to him that if he stood in front of my shot again ( on purpose) he would be leaving the reception with his Nikon wedged up his arse. I explained before the church ceremony that I would be filming them coming up the isle when leaving the church and we could stand side by side and shoot so neither would be in the shot. He mumbled something under his breath. I was at the back and about to film them leaving church when the photographer walked up the isle, stood in front of them and took a few shots, then slowly backed up taking shots as the couple made their way out of church. All I got was the back of the photographer. I was steaming angry.

I make sure when we first meet to have a friendly chat about the day and do explain that I need certain shots and 95% are absolutely fine. They do their thing, and I need time for mine. You can usually tell within the first couple of minutes if you are going to get on with them or not. But always try to be pro. It takes a lot to get me riled but that one guy managed to tip me a bit too far.

Hi Guys,

Travis, I've never said that video isn't more difficult to shoot than stills. That's the last thing I expected people to take from my posts.I was just defending the photography side of things. Video is insanely difficult....At least when you are putting out a superior products like yourself and the members of this forum. The only thing that bothered me was when it was stated that anybody with the right setting can be a good photographer...that's all.I in no way meant to offend anyone of you guys in the video world...that I am also a part of now.If anyone sees the difference between the technical aspects of video and photo it's me.I was very intimidated by the whole idea of starting a video end of the biz....especially after seeing the kind of stuff you guys put out. The video industry around my neck of the woods is pretty 1980's.. and I wanted to bring something to the table that no one else around here does.... high quality,well edited,high impact cinematic wedding films. There are plenty of shabby photogs out there that make us all look bad. Just as there are video guys that do the same.

Yang, I completely understand what you are talking about. Video is a completely different thing.A agree that video has a much much steeper learning curve than stills,That's obvious. I've watched many of your trailers and am a great admirer of your work....I'm glad you don't live around here....lol.I do understand that you also shoot stills and I'm sure that you agree when a guest comes up to you when you are shooting either video or stills and says........."wow that camera must take great pictures" you don't at least get a bit annoyed.I always bite my tongue any agree "yup it's a great piece of equipment". Well that was why I got a little bit defensive when YOU a wedding pro basically said the same thing. Now maybe I read things wrong (it's happened before:)).I love having you guys around to dish out your advice and professional opinions.I can't believe all the things that I've learned here on dvi.I can't imagine there is a higher concentration of talented video professionals on the net. You guys rock! and I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut... Seriously I really didn't mean to ruffle any feathers around here.... especially being a noob.I look forward to sharing my work and having you guys critique it.I value your opinions immensely. Sorry if I misread anything "can't we all just get aloooong" Rodney King.

Ryan