Because all my work is going to DVD or Web should I shoot 1280 x 720/50p shutter 100.
The reason I ask. This format is closer to SD than 1920 x 1080p. I’ve been thinking for a while to try this format on a job but for some reason I have cold feet.
I have a job shooting ten corporate interviews and the turn around is short. If using 720/50p will this be easier on the MBP?
Does anyone shoot in this format as their native size?
I know Full rez is beautiful but I don’t need it yet
I have done a few small tests but nothing serious so I don’t have a real life experience to compare to.

Nick

Because all my work is going to DVD or Web should I shoot 1280 x 720/50p shutter 100.
The reason I ask. This format is closer to SD than 1920 x 1080p. I’ve been thinking for a while to try this format on a job but for some reason I have cold feet.
I have a job shooting ten corporate interviews and the turn around is short. If using 720/50p will this be easier on the MBP?
Does anyone shoot in this format as their native size?
I know Full rez is beautiful but I don’t need it yet
I have done a few small tests but nothing serious so I don’t have a real life experience to compare to.

Nick

There have been lots of threads about SD conversions from 1080 which people have not been happy with or struggled to find a good method especially with Final Cut.
I have not had any major disappointment with Vegas but have not done much.
In my job I download 720p24 movie trailers and render them to SD for DVDs.
They look pretty good to me and might be less prone to issues such as line twitter.
I think you would be best to do some tests yourself before you commit to a paying job.

Malcolm

Hi,

I shoot 720p/50 all day every day, no need to go any bigger, i use FCP, if your footage is going to SD just use compressor and turn on see pic att.

Rob

Thanks Robert,
I was just looking at your web site and blog page.
What shutter setting are you using?

Nick

Because all my work is going to DVD or Web should I shoot 1280 x 720/50p shutter 100.
The reason I ask. This format is closer to SD than 1920 x 1080p.
The simple answer to your question is "probably yes", but lifes often a lot more complicated than that..... For starters 720p/50 and 1080p/25 are very different things.

First question to ask is whether you want smooth motion, or "film look".

If the former, then 720p/50 is almost certainly your best route for primary SD final output. The main reason is that it has 50 unique frames which are fairly easy to turn into 50 unique SD fields. 1080i/25 will give the same "smooth motion", 50fps, look, but requires deinterlacing before scaling down to SD, then reinterlacing - a more messy process.

Couse EX1 is 35mbs VBR, is easier for the codec to shrink the video info of this format than the biger one. Thats why you can overcrank 720 at 60fps and 1080 at 30fps only.

So I always use 720p. best compresion.
I don't know how is 720 50p compared to 1080 50i. I guess could be the same codec intensive. smaler frame but progresive vs biger but interlaced.

But all this is resolution, and codec related.
The "look" is just try it and see if you like.

The reason I shoot 1080 is to prepare for the future. I produce local television commercials and right now the local broadcast stations only accept DV standard def. But someday they will start accepting HD and I'd like to have a bunch of HD commercials "ready to go" when this happens.

I edit everything in Adobe AfterEffects (except long format productions which I do in FCP) and at least in AE I have a good quality solution to convert from HD to SD (letterbox).

Another option is to shoot HD and import it as DV using clip browser. I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard it looks pretty good. But then you wouldn't be building a log of finished HD productions (as I discussed above)

Just my $0.02. :)

One last question and it's to do with the shutter.
If shooting 1280x720 @ 50p what should my shutter be.
Should I set it for 100 shutter or 60? or 180 deg.

Thanks

One last question and it's to do with the shutter.
If shooting 1280x720 @ 50p what should my shutter be.
Should I set it for 100 shutter or 60? or 180 deg.

Thanks

I have tried all shutter settings, found its better to leave it off.

rob.

Technically it should be 1/50th (to match the frequency of your power - 50Hz) But you'll loose light sensitivity using a shutter.

I think it's a matter of taste.

If you like the "film look" where you can see each frame (some call it flicker) then use a shutter.
If you're going for the super sharp video look (like you're actually there) then shoot without a shutter.
If you're planning to slow down the speed of your footage, you'll get less "frame blur" when you shoot with a shutter. If this is the case you might want to try even higher settings (1/250 or 1/500)

It's all a matter of taste in my opinion. :)

oK,

If i was filming a basket ball game any one want to through a idea on a good setting for filming the fast paced game.??

Rob

Shutter should be double the frame rate for progressive and off if in interlaced.
I could be wrong?
Vortex DVD explaines it.

Faster the shutter speed less blur but less light gets through, shouldn't be a problem though, i presume the game will be well lit.

Paul.

I'd vote for either 1/125 or 1/250 for basketball. But you might not have enough light for that high of a shutter speed. Worst case shoot at 1/50.

Compared to shooting 1920x1080 which is the native resolution of the EX1, I find 720 looks very poor.

Paul

I'de stick to shutter off at 50P unless your looking for a super sharp "saving private ryan" look.

At 50P 1/50th is the same as shutter off as the shutter is open for 1/50th of a second anyway.

If you trying to mimic film then it would be normal to use a 180 degree shutter which will always be half of the frame rate as that's the way most film cameras work. If you want it to look like 50i material then no shutter at 50P as the refresh rate and exposure period will be the same.

Compared to shooting 1920x1080 which is the native resolution of the EX1, I find 720 looks very poor.
As viewed directly, yes, but the original question specified that the primary interest was for downconversion for SD DVD or the web. Hence the question as to whether "film look" is preferred (in which case 1080p/25 is probably best) or "smooth motion" (in which case 720p/50 should be better than 1080i/25).

So I set the shutter to off when shooting @ 720p50.
Is this the correct setting?
I wish the manual was a bit more informative.
I'll run some tests today and have a play around before the shoot.

Thanks

Nick, That is what i am doing, Shutter off, has worked ok for the last 4 weddings i have shot.

Tonight i am shooting the Gold Coast Home Basket Ball Home game, so i will do a few tests,

The stadium has plenty of light.

Shutter off,

Shutter Auto,

Shutter 1/250,

We will see how we go. I will post a part of each and let you guys pick on what you think is best.

Rob.

Ok have been doing some tests.
Of course 720p will never be as sharp as 1080p; this is not a concern for me as I'm only interested in out put to SD.
I can’t really see any difference from 1080p and 720p down converted via Compressor using CBR @ 8mbps mind you this was only a small sample of trees and plants, which I find break down during the down conversion to SD.
I think that 720p down converted looks better but I think this is because I’m starting at a lower resolution rather than 1080p so my eyes are being fooled by this higher resoultion.
One thing I noticed is that my MBP 17” had a harder time playing back for some reason, I thought being a lower resolution would make it easier for play back.


Nick

I think that 720p down converted looks better but I think this is because I’m starting at a lower resolution rather than 1080p so my eyes are being fooled by this higher resoultion.

Sometimes, there's just Too Much Detail in life, and video is no exception. 720p doesn't have as much detail as 1080p before you downconvert, so less issues with twittery details. BUT... 720p25 does have the advantage (IMHO) of spreading the variable bandwidth over fewer pixels, so less loss of detail in high motion sequences.

One thing I noticed is that my MBP 17” had a harder time playing back for some reason, I thought being a lower resolution would make it easier for play back.

Is this 720p50 material? My guess is that, even with LongGOP efficiencies, 720p50 is as hard if not maybe harder to decompress than 1080p25. 720p25 is absolutely peachy on my MBP17" (except in XDCAM transfer, and even then, the second play of a clip is perfect if the first was a bit sticky).

And if I may return briefly to the main thrust of your question, I shoot almost exclusively 720p25 as p50 is undoubtedly a wonderful thing with silky smooth movement, but right now 25p is selling really well. Looks the same on DVD and web.

Shutter choice (on, off, speed) is a matter of desired look and feel just like aperture - it's not a yes/no. Between impressionistic but almost smeary 'off' to spicy-hot short shutter settings in zingy sunlight, there's plenty of room for clean, zippy, calm or aggressive shutter settings just like there's room for deep, shallow, normal or freaky depth of field, or flattering, expansive, broad (as in 'whoa!') or 'sniper' focal lengths. My last shoot (PAL) used Off, 1/33, 1/50, 1/60 (when computer screens were in shot), 1/125 when I ran out of ND but wanted f2.8, and 1/250 for some crazy trundle dolly shots through interiors. I also used 16 and 32 frame slow shutters for timelapse.

Play with shutters, it's amazing how we can put 'meaning' into the difference of shutter speeds: dreamy, normal, edgy, zingy...

But as for your original question, 720p50 is ideal for shooting HD material that needs to intercut with PAL interlaced footage. Compressor will re-interlace your 720p50 if you 'turn the gears on' so to speak.

If I were shooting for a PAL project that was definitely NOT progressive, I'd shoot 720p50. Progressive and interlace don't mix (cf. Monty Python Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things / Escape (from film) (http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/ontopof.htm)).

Oops, and that's my render finished.

Thanks Matt,
I'm liking this format for me as I think the down-conversion seems to hold up better going to SD DVD.
You mention that compressor with re-interlace if I used frame controls, why would it do this?

Nick

You mention that compressor with re-interlace if I used frame controls, why would it do this?

If you shoot 720p25, and downconvert to Standard Definition (say DV or DVD), it will have 'that film look' - a sort of time shift that says 'this is happening in film time' not 'this is happening now' - the look of reportage, film, cheap documentary, sport and so on.

If you're filming with a DSR-570 or other fairly high-end but interlaced PAL camera, and cut in EX1 at 720p25, the EX shots will look a little 'other-worldly' and will present in such a way that will not sit well with traditional video footage.

However, because the Progressive look is synonymous with 'high production values' and 'expensive shoots' it may even cheapen what comes before.

So how do you make an EX1 look like real traditional interlaced video?

By shooting 720p50, then turning every frame into a field - in other words, re-interlacing (so frame 1 of 50 is field 1 of frame 1, frame 2 is field 2 of frame 1, frame 3 is field 1 of frame 2, frame 4 is field 2 of frame 2, and so on).

Compressor is logical but completely unintuative about this. With the frame controls switched on, and when you try to deinterlace a 50fps source into a 25 fps (but 50 fields per second) destination, it re-interlaces things. Hooray!

So you shoot 720p50, push the rushes through Compressor, and get DVCAM style rushes that could have come out of a DSR-570

Of course, I prefer the expensive look of progressive anyway, and avoid this process if at all possible, with so much success I haven't had to do it in over a year - so I've forgotten the little details on how to do it. But it can be done easily and it looks stunning (if you like interlaced footage, which I don't).

Matt,
I export to compressor, then use a best template but worked a bit, then render straight out to mpeg.
Because of this format is there something I need to do extra or is my work flow correct?
If intercutting 1080i or 1080p do I need to work the 720p footage in compressor?

Thanks

is there something I need to do extra or is my work flow correct?

Just need to engage frame controls (there's a gear icon next door, this needs to be clicked and frame controls turned ON). Sorry I can't give step-by-step right now. Am stacked with edit work and am writing during compress/render time (and it's good therapy too).

If intercutting 1080i or 1080p do I need to work the 720p footage in compressor?

Generally, you'll be working in the format that the majority of your footage is shot in, so for a Z1 shoot with a bit of EX1, you'll be on an HDV timeline, and for an EX1 720p shoot with a bit of Z1, you'll be on a 720p timeline.

Transcoding footage to another format is only obligatory when you're going to do multicam editing, so if your main camera is EX1 and your second/third cameras are Z1s shooting HDV, you can EITHER shoot the lot 1080i, OR shoot 720p on the EX1 and use Compressor to transcode your Z1 1080i to 720p XDCAM-EX by deinterlacing, and maybe adding a hint of sharpening on the way down.

Most of the time, so long as you switch your sequence settings on to the highest quality, you can just plonk your non-standard footage on the timeline and let FCP sort it out. I do this with PDX-10 C-Roll, and quite frankly I've been gobsmacked when clients didn't notice the difference between PDX-10 DV and Z1 HDV when it got to DVD (but everything was deinterlaced).

But I would avoid interlaced right now. I'd prefer to downconvert 1080i to 720p rather than edit 1080i. Interlacing only works on CRT screens, and most of our work going forward will be on natively progressive screens, so deinterlacing will either remove 25% of the resolution or (on cheap screens) cut resolution in half. Native progressive is the way to go, period.

can you not adjust the EX1s shutter to 1/30, 1/15, etc when shooting 1080i 60p?
as you know on the Z1, hit shutter, and rotate the thumbwheel. i need the vortex DVD.

Hey Robert,
I was interested in how the shoot went the other night using the shutter settings described in an earlier post.

Nick